Do you memorize as you learn a new piece?

[musicalpenguin]

I recently picked back up playing piano after a long hiatus, and do not have a teacher but I've been very interested in learning smart practice methods by myself. I've started reading through C Chang's book on fundamentals of piano practice, and he says to memorize a piece as you're learning - otherwise you're doing the work twice to learn it first, and then try to memorize after.

I'm trying this out with Beethoven Op 13 (pathetique) 3rd movement, and I'm surprised at how fast I'm getting the fingering down when the section is memorized, and how it sounds less like playing piano, but more like playing music. I'm a newbie in this regard, I was wondering if seasoned piano players do this regularly with pieces they're not performing. Do you find it a more efficient way to learn a new piece to learn/memorize at the same time? And do you do this for every new piece you learn, or would you consider that a waste of time?

When I was little, I was never taught to do this - only to memorize after learning if I'm performing the piece.

[brogers70]

I never do any separate work to memorize a piece, I always memorize as I'm learning it.

[lelle]

For me "learning" implies memorization together with mastering technical difficulties and shaping an interpretation. I find it difficult to conceive what "learning" might mean if it does not include memorization. Like what are you learning exactly?

[musicalpenguin]

For me "learning" implies memorization together with mastering technical difficulties and shaping an interpretation. I find it difficult to conceive what "learning" might mean if it does not include memorization. Like what are you learning exactly?

Interesting, maybe it's my lack of experience distinguishing the two. For example, I can learn to play the notes in Tchaikovsky's June, but not necessarily memorized. Some passages may be memorized by muscle memory, but not all. For me in order to memorize something, I need to actively put brain energy into it, use different methods for creating memory and keep practicing passages without looking at the music, and really think about the chords and melody. But I can play just to learn how to play the notes hands together and not necessarily actively use memorization techniques.. perhaps this means I have not truly learned it? 

[essence]

I've never memorised anything.

I may be able to play the opening few bars of the Chopin revolutionary study, or the first bars of the Schubert B flat sonata.

That's it.

At primary/prep school, I was the only one who coul dnot learn Blake's 'tyger, Tyger'. I was forced to recite it every day to the teacher for the following week.

My current memory of it - 'Tyger, Tyger, burning bright, in the middle of the night'.

Doesn't mean to say I couldn't attain high (scientific) academic qualifications or career.

Interestingly, my organ/piano teacher at school, Peter Smith, who went on to be head of piano at Eton, performed the Schumann concerto with sheet music with a semi-professional orchestra.

His organ improvisations were always melodic.but maybe they weren;t as improvisory as I had originally thought!

[brogers70]

Interesting, maybe it's my lack of experience distinguishing the two. For example, I can learn to play the notes in Tchaikovsky's June, but not necessarily memorized. Some passages may be memorized by muscle memory, but not all. For me in order to memorize something, I need to actively put brain energy into it, use different methods for creating memory and keep practicing passages without looking at the music, and really think about the chords and melody. But I can play just to learn how to play the notes hands together and not necessarily actively use memorization techniques.. perhaps this means I have not truly learned it?

When I learn a piece I (more or less automatically) identify the chords and aspects of the form - things like, "OK here's the second theme and it's in the dominant, so probably it will show up in the tonic in the recapitulation" - places where a theme or idea is repeated but the key or voicing is changed - things like "Ah ha this is just like a few bars back, but it's in the subdominant and the bass is doubled in octaves." All those kinds of observations supplement muscle memory and, for me, anyway, they are just part of learning a piece. The more you practice thinking this way as you learn a piece, the more automatic it will become.

[essence]

Maybe as an aside - as an organist, we are meant to be able to transpose at sight. Apparently, it is easier to do so by understanding the harmonies and relationships between chords, rather than transposing each note in turn.

I couldn't do it either way, and failed my ARCO exam (as did most entrants).

[frodo10]

When I learn a piece I (more or less automatically) identify the chords and aspects of the form - things like, "OK here's the second theme and it's in the dominant, so probably it will show up in the tonic in the recapitulation" - places where a theme or idea is repeated but the key or voicing is changed - things like "Ah ha this is just like a few bars back, but it's in the subdominant and the bass is doubled in octaves." All those kinds of observations supplement muscle memory and, for me, anyway, they are just part of learning a piece. The more you practice thinking this way as you learn a piece, the more automatic it will become.

Sounds like a great way to do this.  Muscle memory can lead you astray in many situations.

[psipsi8]

Wow, this is the first time I heard about memorizing as the piece is being learned. Throughout all my years of piano lessons, I always played with the score and only when the piece was due to be performed, or for exams, did I memorize it. But it was already in great shape. I also took a long break from playing the piano and now I can't for the life of me remember how exactly I went about memorizing pieces, only that I didn't find it difficult. But that was a long time ago. Now, I seriously don't know what to do! I think it involved a combination of playing without looking at the notes but having them there for security and referring to them less often as the piece was being memorized.

[pianistavt]

Yes, I try to start memorizing as soon as I have the notes learned and I can look away with any minor degree of confidence. I have found that memorizing is essential for performing challenging music well.  It's also an interesting mental challenge which can be a rewarding to explore in its own right.

[david-g]

I have never committed a piece to memory.  I always play from the score.  I have no interest in memorising; I would rather put my efforts into learning to play pieces fluently.

[brogers70]

I have never committed a piece to memory.  I always play from the score.  I have no interest in memorising; I would rather put my efforts into learning to play pieces fluently.

People memorize in very different ways. Some use almost entirely muscle memory, some aural memory, some use theory, though I cannot imagine it, some people keep a mental image of the score in their mind's eye. Some people don't memorize at all, particularly people who mostly play in ensembles. For me, the effort that goes into playing something fluently automatically makes me memorize it, without additional effort, but plenty of people play beautifully from the score and would have to "waste time" by memorizing. I think ensemble players mostly don't do it, because it's hard to keep a detailed mental image (visual or aural) of everybody else's part as well as your own, but I think there are a few string quartets who memorize and play without the score. I don't think of that as a party trick but as a way of forcing yourself to pay even more attention to everything that's going on in the quartet. For me, it just feels much better to play without the score.

[dizzyfingers]

Why are some pieces easy to memorize and some are difficult?
As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with how technically difficult the piece is ...

[psipsi8]

Why are some pieces easy to memorize and some are difficult?
As far as I can tell it has nothing to do with how technically difficult the piece is ...

If there are recurrent themes or patterns which take different routes, then that makes it hard to memorize. e.g. in sonata form, as the theme shifts to the development, it's easy to skip it entirely and end up finishing the piece. Kind of cliche though.

[dizzyfingers]

If there are recurrent themes or patterns which take different routes, then that makes it hard to memorize.

Yes, that's it exactly.
Bach fugues are difficult to memorize, yes?

e.g. in sonata form, as the theme shifts to the development, it's easy to skip it entirely and end up finishing the piece. Kind of cliche though.

I guess you're talking about in the heat of performance?
Rather unacceptable strategy.  Odd you would even suggest it.  Skip the development completely?   Better to go back to the second theme of the first section and re-enter the development again.
Is this what happened in a recent performance?

[brogers70]

Rather unacceptable strategy.  Odd you would even suggest it.  Skip the development completely? - lol. 

He meant it's an easy mistake to make, not that it's a good idea, easy to implement.

[morrisjd]

I memorize a piece measure by measure as I learn it.

I was never very good at sight reading, in contrast to my piano teacher who could sight read a difficult piece and transpose it to another key, a tempo.  So in the beginning as I learned a piece, at some magical point it just became memorized automatically.   I think this is an example of muscle memory which apparently worked pretty good for me.  The problem is that you can never be sure that during a performance something wrong is going to happen and you might have a memory dropout.  Also, with muscle memory, you may not be able to continue the piece without starting from the beginning or some earlier point way before the disaster.
Also, some people, such as my piano teacher have the equivalent of a photographic memory.  I believe that she could actually see all the notes in her mind and play them.  The reason for this was that she could look at a page and then flip to the next page long before it was necessary time wise.  Also, like a phonograph, she could start playing a piece from memory at any point in the score. 
Once at a home recital, I was playing a Beethoven sonata when I had a memory dropout.  She got up and sat next to me and put her hands on top of mine causing my fingers to move through the forgotten passage and I was able to recover.  It was simply amazing.
So later, I realized that the most effective way for me to learn a new piece was to review it measure by measure and workout any fingering issues.  Then I would learn and commit the piece to memory, a few measures at a time before muscle memory had taken hold.  This might take several days or weeks playing at a slower tempo before I had the music memorized from start to finish.  The last phase of the process was to gradually bring the piece up to tempo.  This method works for me, but that doesn’t mean that it works for those who are adept at sight reading and capable of memorizing the score in such a fashion that they could accurately reproduce it on paper.  I believe that all great concert quality pianists have this ability to “see” the music.
Although muscle memory is a factor in playing up to speed, it can lead to playing the piece that sounds okay, but some of the notes might be missing or different than the score.  I think it is important on a regular basis to play the piece at half tempo or a slower rate that defeats the automatic mode of playing.  This will identify areas where muscle memory is not doing a good job, forcing you refresh the memorization process used to learn the piece in the first place.  Knowing the rules of harmony and major and minor scales can really help.