Grade 8 on Piano

[aysgldemirel]

Hello everyone.

I’ve been playing the piano for about 7-8 years in total, though it’s been a bit of an unsteady journey. I started when I was 15, but as I transitioned into adulthood, I took several long breaks and never really approached it seriously. I’m 23 now and completed Grade 6 (LCM) a couple of years ago.

Lately, I’ve been feeling more motivated to return to playing. I haven’t played much in the past two years, and not at all since last year, and I’ve realized just how much I missed it.

I’m now considering aiming for Grade 8 within the next two years, by the time I’m 25. After that, I’m interested in possibly moving into teaching (I’m well aware that this might not even be the case for me, so it’s just a thought for now).

What do you think? Does that sound realistic? Do you have any tips or suggestions?

One of my concerns is selecting the right repertoire. At the moment, I can’t afford to take lessons again. I had lessons for about four years when I first started, but stopped after that. I’d like to take them again eventually, but for now, my goal is to re-establish a solid practice routine. I’m aiming for about three hours of practice a day, which is the most I can manage alongside my studies & work life.

So my questions are:

Without formal guidance but with consistent, disciplined practice, do you think it’s possible to reach an advanced level within the next two years?

Would you recommend continuing with LCM, or switching to another board like ABRSM?

For repertoire, I plan to work through pieces listed in exam syllabuses (I’ll simply be playing the ones I like), as well as pieces I personally enjoy that are on my level (I’m really into classical music). Do you have any additional recommendations?

Specifically, I’d love guidance on choosing etudes or studies, and also on improving my sight-reading, aural skills, areas I’ve neglected over the years (a VERY important question I would love to get an answer to).

Thanks in advance for your help, I really appreciate any advice you can offer…

P.S.

For context and guidance, here’s a list of some pieces I’ve been playing (or working on) lately:

Lieder ohne Worte No. 1, Mendelssohn
Waltz in A-Flat Major, Brahms
Mazurka Op. 67 No 3., Chopin
Couple Bach Inventions, Clementi Sonatas, Czerny & Burgmüller Etudes, etc. 

I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether these are appropriate for my level (or maybe I’m worst than I thought aha) and if you have suggestions for pieces that would challenge me and help me grow, especially ones that could prepare me for Grade 8 and beyond.

[dizzyfingers]

I’m now considering aiming for Grade 8 within the next two years, by the time I’m 25. After that, I’m interested in possibly moving into teaching (I’m well aware that this might not even be the case for me, so it’s just a thought for now).

I'm only addressing one thought in your post of many thoughts/questions - the one quoted above.

IMO, I don't think finishing ABRSM grade 8 is sufficient to teach piano, except perhaps to first time beginners who are children.  For adult beginners even I would expect a body of knowledge and experience (piano methods, technique and repertoire) that goes far beyond "grade 8".

Once a student reaches lower intermediate, which doesn't take long, I would require the teacher have a masters level degree in piano - who had hands-on experience with plenty of repertoire from Bach, Scarlatti, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Debussy, and many other composers.

But of course this is just one persons perspective.

[aysgldemirel]

I'm only addressing one thought in your post of many thoughts/questions - the one quoted above.

IMO, I don't think finishing ABRSM grade 8 is sufficient to teach piano, except perhaps to first time beginners who are children.  For adult beginners even I would expect a body of knowledge and experience (piano methods, technique and repertoire) that goes far beyond "grade 8".

Once a student reaches lower intermediate, which doesn't take long, I would require the teacher have a masters level degree in piano - who had hands-on experience with plenty of repertoire from Bach, Scarlatti, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Debussy, and many other composers.

But of course this is just one persons perspective.

Well, no, of course not. By “moving into teaching,” I meant something along the lines of progressing towards that area in the future, which would require either the post-Grade 8 qualifications or, as you mentioned, a degree. I’m not interested in teaching in my current stage, nor in the next two years. That comment was really just an offhand remark, as I’m quite focused on my own learning journey at the moment rather than on how I might improve and develop as a teacher. Thank you for your reply, though.

[essence]

I would have thought that 3 hours a day for 2 years would normally get someone up to grade 8 (ABRSM) level from grade 6, so long as there is some aptitude and so long as there is some help/teaching.

Doing it without a teacher is mush more risky, you don't know what bad habits or unmusical performance will emerge.

I seem to remember someone once said that 4000 - 5000 hours of practice will get almost anybody to grade 8 from beginner. You are not a beginner. I would put a lot of uncertainty into that equation.

Don;t listen to me. I gave up lessons at 18.

This has lots of useful information.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=27270.0

[quantum]

Once a student reaches lower intermediate, which doesn't take long, I would require the teacher have a masters level degree in piano - who had hands-on experience with plenty of repertoire from Bach, Scarlatti, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Brahms, Debussy, and many other composers.

Academia is littered with decorated individuals overflowing with degrees, fellowships, awards, and research grants.  Sad truth is many of them achieve teaching positions due to their credentials, yet have no clue on how to teach.  I would not evaluate a persons ability to be an effective teacher based on their degrees or lack thereof.

[dizzyfingers]

Academia is littered with decorated individuals overflowing with degrees, fellowships, awards, and research grants.  Sad truth is many of them achieve teaching positions due to their credentials, yet have no clue on how to teach.  I would not evaluate a persons ability to be an effective teacher based on their degrees or lack thereof.

Yes, of course.  "Masters degree or equivalent", one could say, meaning depth of study.

[essence]

I think the important thing is not the degree or anything.

The important thing is that at a certain stage, there is a step leap. This often happens in first year at an academy, but can happen at any stage.

You can get by to quite an advanced level, a decent amateur level, but now you want to start on road to being more professional.

So your technique needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to self analyse needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to listen needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.

Without this process, under guidance of an experienced teacher, does anybody expect to teach effectively?

I was fortunate to undergo this between school and university, where in UK there is a gap of 9 months before going up to Oxbridge. I was not studying music at university.

Imagine being taught to play a single note,repeatedly, and each time being told it was not good enough? Painful but necessary.

[aysgldemirel]

I think the important thing is not the degree or anything.

The important thing is that at a certain stage, there is a step leap. This often happens in first year at an academy, but can happen at any stage.

You can get by to quite an advanced level, a decent amateur level, but now you want to start on road to being more professional.

So your technique needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to self analyse needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to listen needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.

Without this process, under guidance of an experienced teacher, does anybody expect to teach effectively?

I was fortunate to undergo this between school and university, where in UK there is a gap of 9 months before going up to Oxbridge. I was not studying music at university.

Imagine being taught to play a single note,repeatedly, and each time being told it was not good enough? Painful but necessary.

I totally understand where you’re coming from, and I promise I never do or will consider myself to be on the same level as someone with that kind of education. I wish I hadn’t mentioned the teaching part, since that ended up being the only thing people focused on.

So no, as long as I don’t have the depth to truly share with a student, and as long as I haven’t matured in music in a focused way, I wouldn’t even consider teaching. That’s not my dream, ultimate goal, or connected to my career in any way.

Right now, my only real aim with piano is to be able to truly play and feel this instrument, and the music, properly. Thank you for your additional advice, though. I now see that I definitely need to look into taking lessons.

[dizzyfingers]

... start on road to being more professional.

So your technique needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to self analyse needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.
Your ability to listen needs to be pulled apart and reconstructed.

Without this process, under guidance of an experienced teacher, does anybody expect to teach effectively?

I see the need to respond to the strong comments above from Essence, seeing how it made quite an impression on the OP.
It's probably intuitively obvious, but just to be clear, this deconstruction and reconstruction process is one process among many.  It's not necessary path for every student.  It depends on the student's background and the way (he) learns, and the teacher.

It didn't happen to me that way and I consider myself having achieved what the OP hopes to achieve.

[essence]

I agree completely with dizzy, and i was being much too black and white. It can be a gradual process, rather than  a revolutionary one. I was focussing too much on my own experiences.

But the need for any musician, but particularly teachers, to be able to listen is surely crucial? I am pretty sure one can attain grade 8 without being able to listen. But listen to articulation, listen to balance of chords, listen to tempo and rubato, listen whether the melody is singing or not, listen to evenness of runs, listen whether your thirds are absolutely together, listen to the lilt of a waltz, etc. These are things which a good teacher will help you with, so that you can then impart your listening skills to a pupil.

Slight addendum - it is not enough for a teacher to say 'play more musically' or whatever. They need to explain what is unmusical, in detail.

In short, playing well is very nerdy.

It is interesting, listening to the best rock bands (Rolling Stones, Tom Petty's band, The Doors, Prince's backing band) that there are a multitude of nuances. They do not play exactly in time, that would be boring. The beat is very slightly behind or in advance of the beat. The bassist is not exactly together with the drummer.

Do you think they achieve that by inspiration or feeling? No, by sweat, practise, and listening. But rock bands don't want you to know they practise a lot!

On the other hand, I may be talking nonsense.

[quantum]

It is interesting, listening to the best rock bands (Rolling Stones, Tom Petty's band, The Doors, Prince's backing band) that there are a multitude of nuances. They do not play exactly in time, that would be boring. The beat is very slightly behind or in advance of the beat. The bassist is not exactly together with the drummer.

Do you think they achieve that by inspiration or feeling? No, by sweat, practise, and listening. But rock bands don't want you to know they practise a lot!

On the other hand, I may be talking nonsense.

Not nonsense at all, but requiring attentive ears, disciplined work ethic, critical mind and methodical practice.  These nuances are not exclusive to rock bands.  Unfortunately, many classical teachers try to sterilize student performances in a vain attempt of cleanliness, achieving that prim and proper sound, or worshipping the dogma of the urtext mafia.  It might result in a "perfect" score reading, but that's all such a performance would amount to.  Reading a score does not equate to making music, it is just an uninspired facsimile, a photocopy. 

If one critically observes truly engaging musical performances, one will notice that things do not neatly line up, rhythm is not metronomic, the violins do not speak at the same time as the woodwinds despite the score indication, the speaking lengths of notes are not boxed in score time but resonate with the acoustic space, dynamic indications are not followed literally but are applied in context, and so on.  These imperfections are not the result of random or sloppy work, but represent intentional technical and artistic constructs.  In other words, the music is made to be alive and organic.

[essence]

Absolutely. I only gave the example of the best rock bands as an example. Music is an art, it is not metronomic.

You can pass grade 8 with metronomic, but it is not music. I once had somebody who had gone through Royal Academy of Music, and was playing bass in a small group I was in. He didn't have a clue. He couldn;t read the notes or rhythm I had written.

funny story - we were due to play in Luton town hall, I had arranged for some amplifiers to be built, they were late, I managed to pick them up in the morning. The bass player hired a van. He came to my flat and parked it, to load the amplifiers and speakers. We both watched as the van rolled down the hill and hit the car in front. He had forgotten to put the hand brake on. We hoped the car owner would not notice.

We loaded up, looking a bit sheepish, and set off to Luton (which is north of london,my flat was south of london). Lots of traffic so we were very late.

We rearranged so the group who had ben scheduled to be second half appeared first half.

We finally arrived. Audience of maybe 20 (friends and family). We arranged the equipment. Bass player decided he needed to go to bathroom. however, the water went all over his trousers, with an enormous wet patch, so he hid himself away. Eventually he appeared. We did our bit.

I think we folded soon after, or decided we didn't need a bass player. We did audition one bass player, who was amazing, and we realised he was far too good for us. zipped up and down the scales like nobody's business.

I found it easier later to perform late Scriabin sonatas.

[essence]

to be maybe more specific - at age 13 i won my school piano competition by playing Claire de Lune. It is very specific scoring. Even the first two bars are difficult to play 'in time' and yet be flexible. Almost all amateur, and almost all professional, performances are terrible. How do you give a sense of the beat whilst playing those notes? How do you balance the thirds, how do you give the sense of the poem?

A metronomic playing would destroy any sense of the poem.

An un rythmic playing is simply sentimental and sloppy.

so it needs a teacher with great skills to teach a pupil what is relatively easy technically.

[essence]

ghastly rubbish

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music

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