Practice feeling like a grind

[ranjit]

I really struggle to focus on practicing on pieces that are mostly learned, where you need to focus on evenness, small memory slips, consistency, and difficult sections. Is this common, and how do you deal with it?

[lostinidlewonder]

Personally I feel that is the more enjoyable part, the polishing. You have dug out the gem from the dirt hacked away at the stone surrounding it and now you mostly have the gem, though it’s still rough. So you polish and make it shiny and nice. I find great pleasure when a piece becomes easier and easier to play and the sound quality improves alongside it. That to me is deeply motivational.

Yes polishing can feel more boring by comparison to first learning a piece. Going from not being able to play something to getting your fingers around it is very motivating because that jump from 0 to something is a big difference. The polishing and artistry work is much more subtle, but it is also the stage where you can really express yourself and bring out the music’s character. Many serious musicians find this to be the most profound part of playing because it is here that artistry truly begins.

[frodo10]

I really struggle to focus on practicing on pieces that are mostly learned, where you need to focus on evenness, small memory slips, consistency, and difficult sections. Is this common, and how do you deal with it?

As LIIW said, polishing can be the most fun and rewarding for some.  But some hate this phase the most.  I've heard of people that restore old cars as a hobby where they get 90% done, get bored, then quit to start a new one.  Maybe they semi-restored 100 cars this way.  It might be fear of failure that prevents people from finishing a project.  Who knows?

You won't like what I say next, but this is what I would like to see you do.  Keep doing exactly what you are doing now.  You are making very good progress as is.  Take it to 90%. 

Now for the part that you don't want to hear:  Remember that Bach B-flat major invention we discussed, I don't know, maybe 2 years ago?  Still waiting for this. 

I propose AGAIN that you to ADD the following to your current program:  Can you spare 45 minutes more a week practice for an entire year?

Spend 45 minutes a week for the next YEAR (52 weeks) doing the following with this invention:   For the first 2-3 months split it as follows: 23 minutes left hand alone and 23 minutes right hand alone.  I want perfection of sound HANDS separately PLEASE.  Then practice this 10 minutes right hand alone, 10 minutes left hand alone and 25 minutes hands together for the next 3-4 months.  When doing hands together - identify problem areas and work more on these areas. After 6 months spend an entire week just practicing this invention followed by posting yourself playing this 3 WAYS - 1) RH alone, 2) LH alone and 3) hands together - then we will discuss.  YOU NEED TO STICK WITH A SINGLE PIECE for many months so it becomes imprinted in you brain. 

Once you experience successfully polishing a piece, polishing future pieces will be possible. 

BTW - Just ignore my post if you don't like it.

[brogers70]

I really struggle to focus on practicing on pieces that are mostly learned, where you need to focus on evenness, small memory slips, consistency, and difficult sections. Is this common, and how do you deal with it?

I don't know if it is common, probably is. There is something frustrating about getting 90% of the way there and then feeling like you are not making any progress at all. For example, I've been working on the Brahms Opus 118 #3 Ballade

1

I told my teacher that I thought I was stuck in the sense that I could play the A section well only the fourth or fifth time in a row that I'd played it on any given day, and felt like if I tried to perform it in a program I'd fall apart. I'd tried ultra slow practice, fast and sloppy practice, alternating practice at different tempos, etc. No help. She suggested practicing the A section in 4-rhythms (short-long-short-short, and long-short-short-short). I've used rhythms all the time in scalar passages or arpeggios in one or both hands but never in chords passing between the two hands as in this piece. It took me 10-15 minutes to get the coordination, but then, bingo, practicing the section in a different way broke the bottleneck, and it feels way more confident after just a week. So the message is, maybe try practicing a difficult spot in a completely different way for a while.

Sometimes if I'm frustrated with feeling stuck on how to polish, I just look for a masterclass on the piece I'm working on; lots are free on youtube, and that often gives me new ideas and inspiration to try them out.

I think getting frustrated sometimes is pretty normal and often temporary. Good luck.

[frodo10]

I don't know if it is common, probably is. There is something frustrating about getting 90% of the way there and then feeling like you are not making any progress at all. For example, I've been working on the Brahms Opus 118 #3 Ballade

I told my teacher that I thought I was stuck in the sense that I could play the A section well only the fourth or fifth time in a row that I'd played it on any given day, and felt like if I tried to perform it in a program I'd fall apart. I'd tried ultra slow practice, fast and sloppy practice, alternating practice at different tempos, etc. No help. She suggested practicing the A section in 4-rhythms (short-long-short-short, and long-short-short-short). I've used rhythms all the time in scalar passages or arpeggios in one or both hands but never in chords passing between the two hands as in this piece. It took me 10-15 minutes to get the coordination, but then, bingo, practicing the section in a different way broke the bottleneck, and it feels way more confident after just a week. So the message is, maybe try practicing a difficult spot in a completely different way for a while.

Sometimes if I'm frustrated with feeling stuck on how to polish, I just look for a masterclass on the piece I'm working on; lots are free on youtube, and that often gives me new ideas and inspiration to try them out.

I think getting frustrated sometimes is pretty normal and often temporary. Good luck.

Good tips here.  But just to make sure we are all on the same page:

brogers70 - I assume you have successfully polished many pieces in the past and just had trouble with this and a few others.

ranjit - I assume you have never successfully polished a piece before.  If you have, I would love to hear it.

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding the situation.  I apologize if I made some faulty assumptions here.

[frodo10]

Ranjit - You are making nice progress "as is" I feel.  I just listened to your Schubert Impromptu op 90 no 2.  You are aware that evenness continues to be a problem for you and it shows with this piece.

How long did you work on this piece including total hours practiced?  For example:  I worked on this for about 2 hours a day for a month - total time = 60 hours. 

If this were the case, I would say continue to work on this maybe 1 hour a week for the next year - total 52 more hours.  You are going to have to address the lack of evenness.though.  How fast can you play it and have an excellent evenness of sound - half speed? Quarter speed? 

Can you play anything polished and with even sound?  This is the starting point.  Can you play Bach C-major invention no. 1 with even and polished sound?  These questions need to be answered (I feel) before anyone can help.

You could decide to just keep going "as is" OR decide to polish a piece.  If you decide to polish a piece, I would suggest something like Bach C-major invention no. 1 as opposed to the Schubert Impromptu.

Again - just ignore this if this is not what you are looking for.

[lelle]

Hey Ranjit, I suffer from the same thing, at least now that I'm no longer performing in public. It's easy to think "I got it to 90%, so I know that if I just work a bit more I'll get it to 100%", pat yourself on the back for the hypothetical mastery you have nearly achieved, and then move on to the next thing!

As LIIW said, polishing can be the most fun and rewarding for some.  But some hate this phase the most.  I've heard of people that restore old cars as a hobby where they get 90% done, get bored, then quit to start a new one.  Maybe they semi-restored 100 cars this way.

Haha yup.

Personally I feel that is the more enjoyable part, the polishing. You have dug out the gem from the dirt hacked away at the stone surrounding it and now you mostly have the gem, though it’s still rough. So you polish and make it shiny and nice. I find great pleasure when a piece becomes easier and easier to play and the sound quality improves alongside it. That to me is deeply motivational.

Yes polishing can feel more boring by comparison to first learning a piece. Going from not being able to play something to getting your fingers around it is very motivating because that jump from 0 to something is a big difference. The polishing and artistry work is much more subtle, but it is also the stage where you can really express yourself and bring out the music’s character. Many serious musicians find this to be the most profound part of playing because it is here that artistry truly begins.

For me, a major part of the issue is that it's way more fun to practice slowly until you can play through the piece and "mostly" get it right than to sit down and do some hard work polishing trouble spots only. It's not like you polish everything up to perfection in one session either, it's more like weeks of hard work and delayed gratification before you allow yourself to actually play the piece. And in my case, if I don't have an incentive such as external pressure to perform well, I find that hard to do.

[jonathannyc]

Hello Ranjit,

I have learned that clear goals are essential. Simply playing a piece repeatedly in the hopes that it will improve is a fast track to exhaustion. I need to identify the specific areas that are hindering my performance and use proven practice techniques to get results.

Let's be honest, playing the piano with excellence (by any definition) is real work. That is part of the attraction for me - I enjoy working hard on things I find fascinating. BUT - if I don't get tangible results, I will be frustrated. I must see progress for my efforts. 

I don't know your practice routines, Ranjit, so I cannot offer specific ideas or improvements to it, other than to state a few I employ in my own practicing every day...

Once I've roughly 'mastered' a composition (though still unsatisfactory), I focus immediately on spots where my playing breaks down, or is clumsy, or where I have a memory lapse (I memorize everything without exception).  I re-examine my fingering - does it really work the best? I re-examine my wrist and hand positions - can I find a less awkward position? The more precisely I can identify a failing, the more quickly and efficiently I can fix it, usually putting it through experimenting with variations of tempo, hand weight, and hand positions. I will play without any pedal to unmask any inadequacy, then with pedal again.  And so forth...and I find that a positive result will be forthcoming if 'go at' the problem from several angles.

The only exception is certain pieces that do not fit my hand, but those are few and far between.

Regards.
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https://www.bakerpianolessons.com/

[dizzyfingers]

I really struggle to focus on practicing on pieces that are mostly learned, where you need to focus on evenness, small memory slips, consistency, and difficult sections. Is this common, and how do you deal with it?

Great question.

I agree with a few others here, that is my a favorite phase of the work, commonly called "polishing".  Perhaps you could tell us WHAT you don't like about it?

I like it because it's when I'm transforming what I learned into Real Music, I see the music coming alive as a fine tune the touch and dynamics, crystalize the rhythm.  To me it's working with the magical side of the music - when it comes alive.
Some requirements for enjoying this phase might be -
1) You like the piece.  It engages you to be expressive, creative.
2) Your piano can respond to the subtle changes you are trying to make - more legato, more pianissimo, etc.

When I was a piano student around your age, I had no idea how to polish a piece of music.  How to get it to really sound good.  Somehow, now I do.  I don't know where I learned that, it wasn't from a teacher.  Which makes me wonder - is it just something that, like a tree, takes a long time to grow in you.  If that's the case, my advice might be:  don't sweat it, it's time will come; if you don't enjoy that kind of practicing, don't spend too much time on it.  Enjoy the kind of practicing you enjoy - learning lots of material perhaps - you can refine those pieces in later years.  Typically, two out of 5 of my current practice pieces is something I learned years ago, which I'm refurbishing and refining with my seasoned polishing skills.

[essence]

the final phase of plastering is also called polishing. Only the very best can do it.

from 14:00. the final spark, the final touch, the aesthetics.

i=Olmg8YMxvcl85GE5

[frodo10]

the final phase of plastering is also called polishing. Only the very best can do it.

I'm not sure I agree with your statement as it relates to piano.  Yes - only the best pianist can polish a difficult piece.  But a good intermediate piano player should be able to polish an easy piece such as the Bach C major 2-part invention or the C major prelude from Bach WTC book 1.  If the intermediate player can't polish an easy piece, then there is likely a problem with their technique.

1

[essence]

I'm not sure I agree with your statement as it relates to piano.

Agreed, I was talking about plastering, and using analogies always has dangers!

I was never any good at polishing even easy pieces, such as your example.

[roncesvalles]

As someone who's been mostly self-taught, this is an issue I've given a lot of thought to lately, because I have often been satisfied to "learn" the piece, in terms of getting the general mechanics of it and the notes down. That in itself can be quite the accomplishment. Focusing on finish and polish, however, is a way to foreground your artistry, to really hone your contribution to a piece. Of course there is the sometimes tedious task of fixing mistakes, ensuring smoothness, and working out the technical kinks in parts of the piece. But I think if you put in the time, it can add a level of confidence to your playing, deepen the sense you have of a piece, and hopefully make future forays into polishing works easier.

[essence]

What one wishes to attain is always a step ahead of what one can accomplish. Hence maybe the grind?

Take the C major prelude from WTC book 1. I may, with effort, make a decent attempt, but no amount of polishing will make it sound like Richter. So maybe the trick is to accept one's own shortcomings? It happens in all fields of life. Do your best, it doesn't have to be perfect. Don't beat yourself up.

[frodo10]

I agree with essence that you should not beat yourself up. You are doing great in many regards including your fine improvising!      But I want to share my weird piano story:

My experience with piano was an unusual one.  Started playing at age around 47 – on and off.  Never took piano lessons.  A lot of what I did was “reading” through music that I loved and had no intentions of playing.  Snail pace reading of 32 Beethoven sonatas, Bach WTC, etc with no intentions of ever playing these – just trying get closer to the music that I love.  One of the things I tried was working on Hanon for an entire year – maybe 50% of my time spent on the first I think 31 exercises in C major.  I was never able to play these well at 100 BPM unless I did extensive pre-practicing at slow speeds hands separate and together with gradual build up of speed.  Then I could play most fairly clean at 100 BPM – but ALWAYS hit and miss and it never felt right.  I remember sweating a lot. But I did not have any pain.  You want to hear number 18 at 100 BPM?  Okay - give me 15 minutes to warm up and let me immediately play it after warmup.

When I retired 10 years ago at age 57, I bought an Yamaha Avantgrand N1 an decided to get serious.  After maybe a year of practicing a couple hours a day, I could see that what I was doing wasn’t going to work so I bought some piano methods and technique books.  Most of this time (90%) was spent on 2 pieces that were over my head that I started to learn after I retired: Chopin military polonaise and slow movement of Brahms piano sonata number 3 Op. 5. One of the methods technique books immediately clicked for me – Murray Mclachlan “The Foundations of Technique”.  It was one chapter – Finger independence – that did it for me.  I spent 2 hours a day for 2 months doing NOTHING BUT simple exercises that I created based on the ideas in this maybe 6-page chapter.   After doing these for 2 months, I tried playing Hanon.  Having not touched these for a couple years, I could instantly play number 1 hands together at 100 BPM – no extensive warmup – and it felt unbelievably right.  I'm sure I would have needed months to polish the first 31 exercises though.  Instead, I started to work on the Brahms slow movement (maybe a 12-minute work) and I could not believe how much control I had!  It would have taken me many more hours before I would record it and post it, but I knew this was in my grasp with my “new hands”. 

Unfortunately, I started to develop osteoarthritis in my hands at this exact same time and I made the tough decision to stop piano completely -took me 2 weeks of soul searching to reach this conclusion.  I sold the Avantgrand and that was the end of it. No - I did not get arthritis due to my piano practicing on my new Avantgrand.  It was due to genetics, typing with 2 fingers for the past 30 years at my job and my age. 

The point:  I could have spent 5 hours a day for the rest of my life practicing the Hanon and the Brahms without any significant improvement – IT WAS ALL DUE TO BAD TECHNIQUE!

[frodo10]

I am in the process of typing my 10/1/25 diary entry for my Diary of progress in relearning to play music thread.  I thought I would toss in part of this here since it directly relates to the topic at hand here.

Finger independence – Piano and guitar

I very recently mentioned in another thread about my unbelievable experience working from Murray Mclachlan’s “The foundation of Technique” for piano.  2 months of nothing but very slow to slow practice of exercises I created based on the 6.5 pages of the “finger independence” chapter completely transformed my hands.  During this period of 2 months, I practiced nothing else so not to infect the work I was doing with engrained poor habits. I could give a detailed explanation of exactly what exercises I did and how to do them.  Instead – to spare everyone – I will just give 2 quotes from this chapter:

“True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.”

“Finger independence from the ‘touch and press’ approach is vital for evenness, control, economy of movement and ease with a whole range of technical challenges, including double notes and trills.”

I'll (almost) leave it there.

Vital - Absolutely necessary or important; essential.

[lostinidlewonder]

“True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.”

Pretty garbage advice imho. No one should play like that, it goes against the anatomy of the hand. Functional independence, yes, actually freezing the other fingers while one activates, no.

[frodo10]

Pretty garbage advice imho. No one should play like that, it goes against the anatomy of the hand. Functional independence, yes, actually freezing the other fingers while one activates, no.

That's fine to give your opinion!  I'm afraid that Murray McLachlan and I have to disagree with you. 

[frodo10]

Perhaps LIIW can give some advice to help Ranjit's lack of evenness and control - 2 of the biggest issues I hear with his playing.  Perhaps some advice to help with Schubert impromptu recently posted?

[frodo10]

Notice how quiet the hands are and the economy of movement!
Beautiful technique!
This is what your hands should look like!

[frodo10]

This is what your hands will look like if you follow McLachlan's advice with diligence!
But you need to be smart in how you practice.

Sorry for multiple posts!  This will be my last for a while.  Discussion and opinions are great.

[frodo10]

So, I can make the argument that it's been a while since I posted here.

Let's do this backwards.  I want a piano student to watch the below video 100 times and look at it frame by frame and copy Barton's movements so his hands look just like Barton's.  The student could and would spend the next 20 years trying to copy Barton's hands and never get there - not even close.  Maybe the student will say he can't match Barton's hands because they are shaped different or some other reason.  Well, it's Barton's technique that makes his hands look like they do when he plays.

The problem is you can't get to playing where your hands look like Barton's unless you are given very detailed instructions on how to do this.  This is where McLachlan comes in.  His book gives all the instruction needed for an enterprising person to construct a program so his hands look like Barton's.  Of course music is a game of sound, but you don't see hands that look like Barton's play with bad sound.  The student will of course need a keen ear in addition to what I call the McLachlan/Barton technique

Many of the very fine players I see have similar technique to Barton.  You will see extremely fine economy of movement as the hallmark of their playing whether playing Bach or Liszt.  This economy of movement is taught by McLachlan in his book.

Maybe the student doesn't want to play like Barton - too confining?  Too strict?  Okay, fine.

Bottom line: It's all about having fun - which I will mention in my next guitar post.  Have fun!   

[lostinidlewonder]

That's fine to give your opinion!  I'm afraid that Murray McLachlan and I have to disagree with you.

It is my opinion it is garbage, it is a truth that it is wrong. To be diplomatic I should say he's probably got the right idea but just expressed it inaccurately.

Show me a video of how you play by freezing all other fingers and only allowing another one to move, absolutely no one does that not even the best pianists in the world.
It is biomechanically impossible and counterproductive. The fingers are not independent structures they are connected through: Shared tendons (especially 3rd and 4th fingers), interdependent muscle groups in the forearm, and neurological coupling (try lifting your 4th finger without the 3rd twitching, good luck). Attempting to freeze inactive fingers leads to unnecessary tension, rigid hand posture, reduced speed and coordination and greater likelihood of injury. Sorry no one believes to do what you wrote or Murray, it's just terrible advice, that is why I think you confused it for functional independance.

Perhaps LIIW can give some advice to help Ranjit's lack of evenness and control - 2 of the biggest issues I hear with his playing.  Perhaps some advice to help with Schubert impromptu recently posted?

I speak with him privately a decent amount so there's no need to here.

I'm not sure if we are being on topic too which is fine but usually a good idea to circle back in on it. I think its ranjit's turn to respond since everyone has given him some good ideas in earlier posts.

[lostinidlewonder]

Notice how quiet the hands are and the economy of movement!
Beautiful technique!
This is what your hands should look like!

I don't 't see "True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.” in this video, a requirement you claimed is a vital and basic skill. I as a professional piano teacher think his movements look jerky, this can be played with more economy of movement, I certainly would not encourage students to play like this. It may be his own mannerism to play so jerky and angular to produce the sound he wants but it certainly can be done with much smoother and gentle movements. I don't think unorthodoxed approaches should be encouraged.

[frodo10]

It is my opinion it is garbage, it is a truth that it is wrong.

Show me a video of how you play by freezing all other fingers and only allowing another one to move, absolutely no one does that not even the best pianists in the world.
It is biomechanically impossible and counterproductive. The fingers are not independent structures they are connected through: Shared tendons (especially 3rd and 4th fingers), interdependent muscle groups in the forearm, and neurological coupling (try lifting your 4th finger without the 3rd twitching, good luck). Attempting to freeze inactive fingers leads to unnecessary tension, rigid hand posture, reduced speed and coordination and greater likelihood of injury. Sorry no one believes to do what you wrote or Murray, it's just terrible advice, that is why I think you confused it for functional independance.

You are missing the point I think.  The McLachlan method is a tool to develop good technique.  You want to see what hands look like playing with the McLachlan technique?  Look at the Barton video I posted.  You will see great economy of movement.  This is the McLachlan technique that is developed following his method of instruction. 

Anyway, his book completely transformed my hands in a positive way.

Not looking for further discussion here with you LIIW.  Each person will need to decide for themselves.

[frodo10]

I as a professional piano teacher think his movements look jerky, this can be played with more economy of movement, I certainly would not encourage students to play like this. It may be his own mannerism to play so jerky and angular to produce the sound he wants but it certainly can be done with much smoother and gentle movements. I don't think unorthodoxed approaches should be encouraged.

I won't comment on this but I would be interested to see what others think about what is said here.  This is in regard to the Paul Barton video I posted of P&F no 5 from wtc 1.

[lostinidlewonder]

You are missing the point I think.

I'm not missing the point, I quoted exactly what you wrote which says one finger should move while the others don't move at all in any way, no one teaches this. You specifically said one finger moves "without any movement from the others in the same hand" it is just incorrect there is no point to miss about it, it's plain and simply wrong. Perhaps you misquoted or misunderstood the idea, I can bet my bottom dollar that is not how you play.

You want to see what hands look like playing with the McLachlan technique?  Look at the Barton video I posted.  You will see great economy of movement.  This is the McLachlan technique that is developed following his method of instruction. 

But it isn't doing as you wrote, a single finger moves "without any movement from the others in the same hand"

Not looking for further discussion here with you LIIW.  Each person will need to decide for themselves.

That's up to you, my experience as a seasoned professional teacher hold value and im saying youre misinterpreting the lesson because if its truly what you said then its easily refutable. There is nothing to decide here, anyone who makes isolated finger movements while freezing all the others completely is not playing piano. He likely has just written sloppily if this is indeed what he wrote, I'm not diminishing his teaching capability but he has not described the idea well and leaves it open to terrible advice if that's what he wrote and anyone takes that literally.

I won't comment on this but I would be interested to see what others think about what is said here.  This is in regard to the Paul Barton video I posted of P&F no 5 from wtc 1.

Why don't you create a thread of your own on the topic? This thread is about practicing feeling like a grind.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I’m with lostinidlewonder on this one here finger independence is a myth and striving for it is non musical and a waste of time

[dizzyfingers]

I speak with him privately a decent amount so there's no need to here.

Are you giving him piano advice?
What a lucky lad.

[frodo10]

I really struggle to focus on practicing on pieces that are mostly learned, where you need to focus on evenness, small memory slips, consistency, and difficult sections. Is this common, and how do you deal with it?

So McLachlan method is no good?  Oh well. 

Ranjit - you have been taking lessons from a fine teacher for many years is my impression.  Is this true? What does your teacher say about your lack of evenness and control?   Are you following your teacher's advice?  What have you gained from studying with your teacher?  Have you tried other teachers? What are you hoping to do with your piano playing? 

Having this information might help some answer your question.  You don't want to answer these?  That's fine - don't worry about it.

EDIT:
Small memory slips - play with music in front of you.

Difficult passages - brogers70 gave good example of a way to deal with a difficult passage he was having.  Can you create your own exercises that specifically deals with the problem a particular passage is giving you?  You should learn to create your own exercises that help with problem areas.

[lostinidlewonder]

Are you giving him piano advice?
What a lucky lad.

Yes I have given him advice over the years and our interactions has been educational for both of us. I'm not his teacher since we live a world away from one another. I help anyone who asks for it since piano education is a deep interest of mine and I do enjoy learning from others experience, if I have the time I will give it.

I’ve been giving advice on piano education for over 20 years on PianoStreet and even longer elsewhere. I wouldn’t describe this as making someone “lucky,” since I also gain from these exchanges, whether I agree with the other person or not (and you know you and I haven't agreed on things too but it's useful). So if we’re considering this as luck, I suppose I’m lucky too to be able to engage with others on one of my favorite topics.

So McLachlan method is no good?  Oh well. 

Just because he described something clumsily doesn't mean his entire method is no good, that would be extremely unfair. No one is perfect, everyone makes errors or inaccuracies, there is no way he means what you quoted word for word exactly as written, I'm 100% certain if you asked him to elaborate he would admit it is not total freezing of other fingers but more "functional independence". I am however very critical of anything that is meant for self learning, we really do need to write in a way which limits misinterpretation.

Ranjit - you have been taking lessons from a fine teacher for many years is my impression.  Is this true?  What does your teacher say about your lack of evenness and control?   Are you following your teacher's advice?  What have you gained from studying with your teacher?  Have you tried other teachers? What are you hoping to do with your piano playing?

I'm sure he will be more elaborate if he answers but I can inform you he has been taught by several qualified teachers over the years. He has had different perspectives on the same problems which could be confusing for most but Ranjit's quite an analytical and smart guy so he can manage that quite well.

[frodo10]

Just because he described something clumsily doesn't mean his entire method is no good, that would be extremely unfair. No one is perfect, everyone makes errors or inaccuracies, there is no way he means what you quoted word for word exactly as written, I'm 100% certain if you asked him to elaborate he would admit it is not total freezing of other fingers but more "functional independence". I am however very critical of anything that is meant for self learning, we really do need to write in a way which limits misinterpretation.

He wrote with precision.  I'll tell you what. You buy his book, read and STUDY in good faith the 6.5 pages of the finger independence chapter.  Spend at least 15 minutes trying the few exercises he gives and then we'll talk.  I have little doubt that you are capable of doing this.  I spent 2 months doing nothing but exercises based on these 6.5 pages and I saw how it completely transformed my playing in just 2 months as I described earlier in this thread.  In our discussion, should we ever have one, you will need to account for my prior sentence.

Anything short of doing what I request, I have nothing further to say about this with you.  This also goes for Rach and any other nay sayer.  It's fine to have a discussion - but we need to all be on the "same page" if you are a nay sayer.  Doing the above work that I request will assure me that we are all on the same page.  Anything short - we are not on the same page.  Who gets to determine if we are all on the same page?  I do for discussions I chose to participate in.

How will I know if you bought the book?  I will ask a question such as - what is the 3rd to the last word on the bottom of page 87?  My actual question will be different.  If you pass this test, then I have a couple more questions.  Pass that test and we will begin our discussion.   

How will you know if I'm not participating in a discussion with you?  Guess!   

 

[frodo10]

Done with my edits. 

[lostinidlewonder]

He wrote with precision.  I'll tell you what. You buy his book, read and STUDY in good faith the 6.5 pages of the finger independence chapter.  Spend at least 15 minutes trying the few exercises he gives and then we'll talk.

I am a professional piano pedagogist and have taught piano for decades. I do not need to purchase his book to appraise the quote you provided which I have thoroughly shown is ridiculous. If you cannot accept that he's just written it sloppily then I don't know how to help you, like I said, not all educators are 100% perfect and this quote of his you have provided is evidence of that.

I spent 2 months doing nothing but exercises based on these 6.5 pages and I saw how it completely transformed my playing in just 2 months as I described earlier in this thread.

Show us a video of you playing with finger isolation where one finger moves and all the others are frozen in time. I bet you do not play like this and this is exactly what the quote you have provided is suggesting. I already said, his writing could have been better, just because one part is proven to be inaccurate doesn't mean the rest of it is bad.

Sure you can HOLD some fingers down while moving another without seeing the held fingers move, but that's only for this instance, what about when other fingers are not engaged? Are you saying you can make isolated movements with a finger without moving any of the others in this instance? That would be hilarious to see.

Anything short of doing what I request, I have nothing further to say about this with you.

Stop being silly, I don't have to do anything you said to demonstrate a pedagogical truth.

[/size]  This also goes for Rach and any other nay sayer.  It's fine to have a discussion - but we need to all be on the "same page".  Doing the above work that I request will assure me that we are all on the same page.  Anything short - we are not on the same page.  Who gets to determine if we are all on the same page?  I do for discussions I chose to participate in.

You can say, do this or I'll stamp my feet and not talk to you. It doesn't prove anything just shows that you are being overly defensive for no reason. Someone with some logic would want to understand why we are pushing against it not throw up a defence.

How will I know if you bought the book?  I will ask a question such as - what is the 3rd to the last word on the bottom of page 87?  My actual question will be different.  If you pass this test, then I have a couple more questions.  Pass that test and we will begin our discussion.

I don't have to buy his book, I can talk about anything in his book you bring up and elaborate on it all, the vast majority of my entire professional life is about piano pedagogy and the many ways to approach it. I am not a student and I am not a beginner teacher. I am one of the more experienced teachers of piano education you'll come across who actively engages with anyone online, who doesn't hide information in a course or book I want to sell to you.

[frodo10]

I modified my guitar diary entry to be given on 10/1/25 as follows to give the correct context of the McLachlan quotes.  The italicized wording was added.  Sorry for not making this clear.  It's been about 9 years since I studied this. Context matters.  NOTE: the description below is not sufficient to understand everything.  You need to buy the book.

“True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.” – Note: this is in the context of “touch and press” where all 5 fingers (or less than 5 fingers in certain circumstances) are resting lightly on the piano keys before a key is pressed.  The piano keys have enough resistance to keep non-playing fingers from moving downward when the playing finger plays the note and so non-playing fingers resting on the keys remain absolutely motionless in this context.  Same concept for double notes. The wording not in quotes is mine.

“Finger independence from the ‘touch and press’ approach is vital for evenness, control, economy of movement and ease with a whole range of technical challenges, including double notes and trills.”

[ranjit]

“True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.” – Note: this is in the context of “touch and press” where all 5 fingers (or less than 5 fingers in certain circumstances) are resting lightly on the piano keys before a key is pressed.  The piano keys have enough resistance to keep non-playing fingers from moving downward when the playing finger plays the note and so non-playing fingers resting on the keys remain absolutely motionless in this context.  Same concept for double notes. The wording not in quotes is mine.

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with liw on this one, that this is factually incorrect.

There might be fairly limited movement in the other fingers, but it is not zero. And minimizing the movement to the maximum extent may be a decent exercise for certain things, but does not work with actual pieces because it is less efficient than using the fingers and the wrist (primarily) as a combined unit.

[ranjit]

To clarify, I was wondering about the psychology of piano practice, and not specific technical advice. Thinking about the end goal can be useful, but I don't think it's enough, especially when we are talking about potentially several hours a day of polishing work. I suppose it would be more enjoyable if you could just think about a certain interpretation and will it into existence. Maybe it's the number of hours that elapse between the intention and the execution that are not enjoyable? So in that sense, it may be an issue solely to do with playing difficult pieces. But, unless you have an impeccable background, learning long difficult solo piano repertoire to a high standard will take more than a couple weeks, which seems to be my limit before a feeling of stasis starts to set in.

[frodo10]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with liw on this one, that this is factually incorrect.

There might be fairly limited movement in the other fingers, but it is not zero. And minimizing the movement to the maximum extent may be a decent exercise for certain things, but does not work with actual pieces because it is less efficient than using the fingers and the wrist (primarily) as a combined unit.

Hi Ranjit,  This puts you in the nay sayer category, but I'll make an exception for you.   

You put your hand flat on a table and there will be minimal movement.  Being a math person you understand extremely small numbers.  My 2 months of McLachlan touch and press finger independence certainly worked for most of the Brahms piano sonata no 3 op 5 slow movement.  I wish I had 6 more months before I stopped playing.  It (touch and press) also worked on Bach WTC book 1 c major prelude 100% and the fugue 95%.  It worked on Hanon exercises #1 that I mentioned I played perfectly at 100 BPM hands together with no warm up after doing nothing but very slow to slow practice of finger independence for 2 months and not playing it for 2 years.

You would not believe how much I improved (control and evenness) after spending my 2 months on touch and press.

Have you tried the Mclachlan?  No?  No problem.  I absolutely respect your opinion.  But you are going to need to change something before you can start to have evenness and control.  You need to come up with a plan.  Or - just let it go as is and have fun!  This is actually what I am going to recommend for you. 

BTW - I have my hands full with trying to learn guitar and I'm not sure I'm going to succeed there.  But I will be having fun or I will stop.

[frodo10]

To clarify, I was wondering about the psychology of piano practice, and not specific technical advice. Thinking about the end goal can be useful, but I don't think it's enough, especially when we are talking about potentially several hours a day of polishing work. I suppose it would be more enjoyable if you could just think about a certain interpretation and will it into existence. Maybe it's the number of hours that elapse between the intention and the execution that are not enjoyable? So in that sense, it may be an issue solely to do with playing difficult pieces. But, unless you have an impeccable background, learning long difficult solo piano repertoire to a high standard will take more than a couple weeks, which seems to be my limit before a feeling of stasis starts to set in.

My advice - do what you enjoy doing.  You don't like polishing difficult pieces - don't do it then.  Improvise when the mood strikes you.  Have fun!

[lostinidlewonder]

“True finger independence for pianists means using each digit in turn without any movement from the others in the same hand.  It is a vital and basic skill.” – Note: this is in the context of “touch and press” where all 5 fingers (or less than 5 fingers in certain circumstances) are resting lightly on the piano keys before a key is pressed.  The piano keys have enough resistance to keep non-playing fingers from moving downward when the playing finger plays the note and so non-playing fingers resting on the keys remain absolutely motionless in this context.  Same concept for double notes. The wording not in quotes is mine.

“Finger independence from the ‘touch and press’ approach is vital for evenness, control, economy of movement and ease with a whole range of technical challenges, including double notes and trills.”

But we dont play the piano with the fingers constantly in contact with the keys or depressing keys, thus the idea that this independence has a macroscopic utility rather than  specific context is quite ridiculous. No one plays the piano with their fingers in constant contact with the keys. Also even with the fingers depressing or in contact movement in other finger still may cause slight movement in the neighbouring fingers especially when 4 is involved. There is zero reason to have no movement at all, it goes against the natural hand mechanics thus would be actually increasing tension and limiting control rather than  promoting it.

If you dont believe us just input it into an AI which has been trained on vast amounts of piano technique text, you can educate yourself.

[lostinidlewonder]

My advice - do what you enjoy doing.  You don't like polishing difficult pieces - don't do it then.  Improvise when the mood strikes you.  Have fun!

And what if your goals are to attend conservatories? Just tell them you prefer improvising?

[essence]

I fear this is becoming a last word thread!

i was curious. I placed all my fingers on the table, and could raise each individually. I could also raise pairs of fingers. Fine.  I would expect all pianists to be able to do this, but non pianists may have problems.

I then raised my hand so that my fingers were not placed on the table. I could then raise and lower thumb and all fingers, except finger 4, with no or minimal movement from the other fingers.

I then went and played the slow movement from Schubert A major sonata, which requires finger independence so that chords can be properly balanced and the melody note brought out.

I haven't read McLachlan and have never done Hanon exercises.

I looked up Murray McLachlan. He is reputable. Royal Northen college of Music is reputable - John Ogdon and Peter Donohoe studied there.  Chetham's school of music is where many future concert pianists learn. I would be interested to read further, and take him seriously. I may not agree with everything, but i would not dismiss him (as my a priori position).

[frodo10]

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with liw on this one, that this is factually incorrect.

There might be fairly limited movement in the other fingers, but it is not zero. And minimizing the movement to the maximum extent may be a decent exercise for certain things, but does not work with actual pieces because it is less efficient than using the fingers and the wrist (primarily) as a combined unit.

He does get into using the fingers and the wrist (primarily) as a combined unit.  Finger independence is just chapter 3 of a 20 chapter book. 

[frodo10]

I fear this is becoming a last word thread!

i was curious. I placed all my fingers on the table, and could raise each individually. I could also raise pairs of fingers. Fine.  I would expect all pianists to be able to do this, but non pianists may have problems.

I then raised my hand so that my fingers were not placed on the table. I could then raise and lower thumb and all fingers, except finger 4, with no or minimal movement from the other fingers.

I then went and played the slow movement from Schubert A major sonata, which requires finger independence so that chords can be properly balanced and the melody note brought out.

I haven't read McLachlan and have never done Hanon exercises.

I looked up Murray McLachlan. He is reputable. Royal Northen college of Music is reputable - John Ogdon and Peter Donohoe studied there.  Chetham's school of music is where many future concert pianists learn. I would be interested to read further, and take him seriously. I may not agree with everything, but i would not dismiss him (as my a priori position).

If you can't play the C-major prelude from Bach WTC book 1 with total control and evenness,  just read chapter 3 of Mdlachlan - 6.5 pages.  It should clear that problem up with a little work.

Here is a thread where I helped a person with this C-major prelude and he made great progress.  He could not play the c-major prelude with evenness and control, but now he can thanks to touch and press technique!  Or maybe kindkaktus will tell you otherwise.  I would love to hear how he did it.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=68746.0

[frodo10]

And what if your goals are to attend conservatories? Just tell them you prefer improvising?

He won't be able to I'm sorry to say unless he has a major breakthrough which I don't see happening.  Sorry.  I hope he proves me wrong but he doesn't seem determined to play evenly and with control - not even close to where he needs to be.  He doesn't enjoy polishing so I would see no chance. Sorry.  Again - I hope he proves me wrong assuming he even wants to attend a conservatory.  Sorry.

But cheer up - he has a great job (I'm hoping) and a great hobby!  What else can you ask for in life?

[brogers70]

To clarify, I was wondering about the psychology of piano practice, and not specific technical advice. Thinking about the end goal can be useful, but I don't think it's enough, especially when we are talking about potentially several hours a day of polishing work. I suppose it would be more enjoyable if you could just think about a certain interpretation and will it into existence. Maybe it's the number of hours that elapse between the intention and the execution that are not enjoyable? So in that sense, it may be an issue solely to do with playing difficult pieces. But, unless you have an impeccable background, learning long difficult solo piano repertoire to a high standard will take more than a couple weeks, which seems to be my limit before a feeling of stasis starts to set in.

Ranjit, just thinking about motivation to polish, I love to listen to these interpretation classes by Ben Zander. They generally don't involve a solo pianist, but the way he takes a good performance and motivates the musician to turn it into a great performance is often inspiring. There are tons of his videos on YT some with musicians who start out at a professional level, some with very good student musicians, a handful with good amateurs, but in almost every case you can see a big improvement in minutes. Whenever I watch one, it makes me want to practice more and get more deeply into whatever piece I'm working on. Here's one link; you can easily find lots more.

1

[lostinidlewonder]

I fear this is becoming a last word thread!

We should all agree and not comment? Forum is dead, stop pushing against interactions.

I then raised my hand so that my fingers were not placed on the table. I could then raise and lower thumb and all fingers, except finger 4, with no or minimal movement from the other fingers.

It's only the thumb that can truly do it and even then it would take focused effort not naturally occuring, all the other fingers will cause movement in their neighbours. Play the finger multiple times not just a single superncontrolled instance, that is not piano playing.

I looked up Murray McLachlan. He is reputable. Royal Northen college of Music is reputable - John Ogdon and Peter Donohoe studied there.  Chetham's school of music is where many future concert pianists learn. I would be interested to read further, and take him seriously. I may not agree with everything, but i would not dismiss him (as my a priori position).

No one here is dismissing him, i clearly said he's not being clear in the quote. It really doesn't matter his qualifications just look at the info

He won't be able to I'm sorry to say unless he has a major breakthrough which I don't see happening.  Sorry.  I hope he proves me wrong but he doesn't seem determined to play evenly and with control - not even close to where he needs to be.  He doesn't enjoy polishing so I would see no chance. Sorry.  Again - I hope he proves me wrong assuming he even wants to attend a conservatory.  Sorry.

But cheer up - he has a great job (I'm hoping) and a great hobby!  What else can you ask for in life?

This is a defeatist attitude and unhelpful. Ranjit learns quite difficult repertoire in short time and it's the polishing after that he finds challenging, not that he can't do it. He puts himself into time pressure and wishes the polishing were faster and more efficient. Those who work outside of time restriction think it's easy because they spend years polishing, he's wondering why it cant be done in quick time, quite an advanced question which doesn't get solved by putting up more barriers.

[frodo10]

This is a defeatist attitude and unhelpful. Ranjit learns quite difficult repertoire in short time and it's the polishing after that he finds challenging, not that he can't do it. He puts himself into time pressure and wishes the polishing were faster and more efficient. Those who work outside of time restriction think it's easy because they spend years polishing, he's wondering why it cant be done in quick time, quite an advanced question which doesn't get solved by putting up more barriers.

You are doing him a great disservice by giving him false hopes.  Shame on you!  I've followed his progress for the past few years and read his comments.  He is consistently showing signs of not wanting to polish, not wanting to address technique shortcomings, not wanting to work on easier pieces that are appropriate to his ability.  And this latest thread gives further evidence of that.

You can run but you can't hide.  If you think you can get into a conservatory without being able to play even a single 2-part invention by Bach in a controlled, even, musical way - think again.  Why is Ranjit working on pieces over his head?  He is showing no signs of changes in attitude that will be needed to get to the point were he can pass an audition for a conservatory. 

How about taking some RCM tests or similar tests?  This will give him the feedback he desperately needs! 

[lostinidlewonder]

You are doing him a great disservice by giving him false hopes.  Shame on you!  I've followed his progress for the past few years and read his comments.  He is consistently showing signs of not wanting to polish, not wanting to address technique shortcomings, not wanting to work on easier pieces that are appropriate to his ability.  And this latest thread gives further evidence of that.

What garbage. Why are you being a source for such negativity and gatekeeping? Youre not in the position to even judge such things, and professional teacher would be wary, you are not even a qualified teacher to give such advice. Ridiculous. Ranjit plays better than you and youre trying to tell him what he can't do lol.

[You can run but you can't hide.  If you think you can get into a conservatory without being able to play even a single 2-part invention by Bach in a controlled, even, musical way - think again.  Why is Ranjit working on pieces over his head?  He is showing no signs of changes in attitude that will be needed to get to the point were he can pass an audition for a conservatory. 

How about taking some RCM tests or similar tests?  This will give him the feedback he desperately needs! 

You only see snippets he shares that are works in progress and you think you can define his entire future potential? Hilarious. No idea who you are trying to be but it's not nconvincing. Maybe create a frodo11 account and try again lol.

[essence]

It's only the thumb that can truly do it, all the other fingers will cause movement in their neighbours

When not placing my fingers on the table (i.e. they are all up in the air) i can raise finger 2 with no noticable movement in other fingers, finger 3  with no movement n fingers 4 and 5, and maybe 1/4" movement in finger 2, finger 5 with maybe 1/22 movement in finger 4 and 1/4" movement in fingers 2 and 3.

Raising finger 4 is of course another story.

Shall I make a video? Can you experiment and provide feedback?

In addition, I think you may be unclear - you say

" i clearly said he's not being clear in the quote"

although maybe you are saying frodo is not clear, but mclachlan is clear? Not sure to whom you are referring to when you say 'he'.

Is it frodo's quote which is misleading, or McLachlan's original text? frodo10 him/herself clearly correct the original quote. It was within the context of 'touch and press'. This would be a bit similar to my test of placing fingers on a table, but a table is a bit more resistant. Let me go to a piano....

Yes, when lightly touching keys with all fingers, i can play each note without movement from other fingers.

Case solved.

Going back to my example of Schubert A major sonata slow movement, look at about bar 50 - each hand has chords, but there are melodies within the chords, and it is all p or pp, so finger independence is necessary to bring out the relevant notes.

I can of course play bach c major prelude from book 1, it is perfectly even without any pedal. My comment was partly self deprecation, but also commenting that although perfect, it is not as perfect as Richter.