How can one practice musically demanding pieces?

[a.r.4.d]

I’m currently working on Brahms’ Op. 118 No. 2, which I’d like to perform for an audition in a few months.

I’d love some advice on how to approach practicing this kind of piece. Unlike études, it isn’t primarily about technical display, but I want to bring it as close to perfection as possible, the way I hear it in my favorite recordings.

One thing I’m especially curious about is balance: for example, how to shape the accompaniment so it stays quiet enough while allowing the melody to really sing. I know the approach, but I feel my practice methods and approaches need improvement.

So my question is: how do other pianists typically approach pieces like this, especially when it comes to refining balance, color, and expression?

And yes i have a teacher but unfortunately my lesson isn’t in a few days and i want to find a way before my lesson.

[dizzyfingers]

Can you provide a video, this will help us gauge what the issues are

[pianistavt]

I’m currently working on Brahms’ Op. 118 No. 2, which I’d like to perform for an audition in a few months.
I’d love some advice on how to approach practicing this kind of piece. Unlike études, it isn’t primarily about technical display, but I want to bring it as close to perfection as possible, the way I hear it in my favorite recordings.  One thing I’m especially curious about is balance: for example, how to shape the accompaniment so it stays quiet enough while allowing the melody to really sing. I know the approach, but I feel my practice methods and approaches need improvement.  So my question is: how do other pianists typically approach pieces like this, especially when it comes to refining balance, color, and expression?  And yes i have a teacher but unfortunately my lesson isn’t in a few days and i want to find a way before my lesson.

I recently worked on Brahms intermezzo op 119 no 3 - a similar piece.
Brahms gives lots of indications for expression.  Without doubt, follow them.  But of course there's more you should be doing.  Knowing <What> is a process of listening to others' versions, assimilating these, and eventually intuiting how you want to hear it.  However, if you can't execute fundamental dynamics, like playing with your LH on a softer dynamic level than your RH, you need technical work.

Here's a recording I made of op 119 / no 3.  Let me know if you have any questions about how I arrived at this point.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=72501.msg741987;topicseen#msg741987

[brogers70]

This may seem pretty simplistic, but for me the most helpful thing is to have a clear mental image of how I want the piece to sound, more specifically a clear image of how each phrase should sound just before I actually play it. For voicing, there are exercises, like playing the voice you want to bring out forte and legato and the accompaniment piano and staccato (not that you'll play it that exaggeratedly in the end). But I find it just as useful to just listen for the line I want to hear while I'm playing, and simply paying attention to it makes me subconsciously find a way to bring it out. Likewise, if you want to make a long, connected line, simply listening for it while I play does some biofeedback sort of thing that helps my body figure out how to make the right sound without fussing a lot about how to move my arms and fingers in detail. I know it sounds pretty vague and unstructured, but I find it very useful.

[frodo10]

Watching and listening to a fine performance can only help.  Especially if you have a great overhead view of a performer with great technique. Sung Chang - gorgeous performance!  Your success with this piece will largely come down to your technique, practice methods/habits and your ear - assuming you put in the time.  You are asking about practice methods.  I will let others address this.  But I will say keep tuning up your ear by listening to a fine reference performance such as the one I provided.  Good luck.

1

[pianistavt]

This may seem pretty simplistic, but for me the most helpful thing is to have a clear mental image of how I want the piece to sound, more specifically a clear image of how each phrase should sound just before I actually play it. For voicing, there are exercises, like playing the voice you want to bring out forte and legato and the accompaniment piano and staccato (not that you'll play it that exaggeratedly in the end). But I find it just as useful to just listen for the line I want to hear while I'm playing, and simply paying attention to it makes me subconsciously find a way to bring it out. Likewise, if you want to make a long, connected line, simply listening for it while I play does some biofeedback sort of thing that helps my body figure out how to make the right sound without fussing a lot about how to move my arms and fingers in detail. I know it sounds pretty vague and unstructured, but I find it very useful.

I agree that's an important and required phase of the process, but it works better if the notes are rock-solid first.

[a.r.4.d]

This may seem pretty simplistic, but for me the most helpful thing is to have a clear mental image of how I want the piece to sound, more specifically a clear image of how each phrase should sound just before I actually play it. For voicing, there are exercises, like playing the voice you want to bring out forte and legato and the accompaniment piano and staccato (not that you'll play it that exaggeratedly in the end). But I find it just as useful to just listen for the line I want to hear while I'm playing, and simply paying attention to it makes me subconsciously find a way to bring it out. Likewise, if you want to make a long, connected line, simply listening for it while I play does some biofeedback sort of thing that helps my body figure out how to make the right sound without fussing a lot about how to move my arms and fingers in detail. I know it sounds pretty vague and unstructured, but I find it very useful.

Thanks for your comment.
In fact i think  it will turn out to be useful and i will use your recommendation.

[a.r.4.d]

Watching and listening to a fine performance can only help.  Especially if you have a great overhead view of a performer with great technique. Sung Chang - gorgeous performance!  Your success with this piece will largely come down to your technique, practice methods/habits and your ear - assuming you put in the time.  You are asking about practice methods.  I will let others address this.  But I will say keep tuning up your ear by listening to a fine reference performance such as the one I provided.  Good luck.

1

Thanks for the comment
In fact i have been listening to Nikolai lugansky’s recording qnd it’s magnificent, but theres more to discover in the piece…

[a.r.4.d]

I recently worked on Brahms intermezzo op 119 no 3 - a similar piece.
Brahms gives lots of indications for expression.  Without doubt, follow them.  But of course there's more you should be doing.  Knowing <What> is a process of listening to others' versions, assimilating these, and eventually intuiting how you want to hear it.  However, if you can't execute fundamental dynamics, like playing with your LH on a softer dynamic level than your RH, you need technical work.

Here's a recording I made of op 119 / no 3.  Let me know if you have any questions about how I arrived at this point.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=72501.msg741987;topicseen#msg741987

Thanks for your comment.
Magnificent recording!
The dynamical balance of my hands are acceptable, but i’d like the left hand to be even less however both a matter of instrument and my technique.

[pianistavt]

Thanks for your comment.
Magnificent recording!
The dynamical balance of my hands are acceptable, but i’d like the left hand to be even less however both a matter of instrument and my technique.

To improve your technique - your control over tone and dynamics - in this piece practice it without pedal.  It's going to sound odd, but if you do it, you will gain much; think of it as an exercise. 

[brogers70]

I agree that's an important and required phase of the process, but it works better if the notes are rock-solid first.

In fact, at times I've found it to help solidify the notes. You know the Mannheim rocket that start Beethoven's first piano sonata, with the grace notes at the top? A couple of years ago I spent months trying to get those grace notes clean by working on how my fingers should move, how close to the keys, whether to give a little wrist impulse at the beginning, how much to play the quick notes with mostly finger or mostly hand/wrist motion/rotation. In the end, the only thing that worked was imagining the desired sound the instant before I played it and letting my body figure out what to do to get it. For me, focusing on the "interpretative"  issues solves some places where the notes were not rock solid.

[lostinidlewonder]

I’m going against the grain here but I don’t think this is a particularly musically demanding piece. Of course that’s subjective and depends on your own experience. It unfolds quite logically and doesn’t throw a vast array of emotions at you. It’s a highly singable lyrical piece which actually makes deciding what to bring out and how much a lot easier. Many people underestimate how useful it is to sing the piece while listening or playing. If you haven’t tried it give it a shot. You don’t need to be great at it, just capture the rises and falls, the natural breathing of the phrases and any subtle tempo nuances you might want to add.

Brahms isn’t generally very pianistic, it doesn't fit beautifully under the hands like other composers, this adds a challenge in expressing and controlling the music. Make sure the physical side of your playing is solid first. Once that’s under control you’ll have a strong foundation to refine expression and nuance.

It’s hard to give concrete advice without hearing how you play it as dizzyfingers also pointed out. You might only need a small adjustment here or there or maybe the whole piece is still in its early stages and missing out on a lot of potential expression. Even hearing someone play it might not reveal everything because you might understand the ideas in theory but haven’t yet practiced them into execution. So until we hear you play it's not useful to describe every single expressive point throughout the piece, it would be pages and pages long and not worth the effort. It doesn't even have to be the whole piece, perhaps even small parts you are unsure of, that at least will open the discussion to something more concrete rather than generalized advice which isn't as helpful.

[essence]

I tend to agree. follow the score meticulously.

One of the difficulties is, for example, in the repeated a tempo section, where it is like a duet and both voices need to sing. Same when it returns to tempo 1.

be careful also where the bass is marked as a crotchet amongst quavers - e.g. from 7 bars before the end with the A, F#, D and B. How are you going to reflect what Brahms was trying to say? Slight holding of the note? Slighltly more dynamically prominent? It has to be different to a simple run of quavers.

Frodo's link has a good example of this.

What I question about frodo's link is that hands and fingers are not always together. Old style, intentional, or lack of technique?

Lugansky is wonderful. He keeps it flowing. In pieces like this, there can be a temptation to make little pauses which imterrupt the flow.

There are many great performances on you tube. ludu, neuhaus, gieseking

Glen gould - maybe not!