Chopin etudes order of difficulty

[bach-busoni chaconne]

Hi everyone,
What is your ranking of the difficulties of the 24 main Chopin etudes from Op.10 and Op.25?
This is my ranking (hardest-->easiest) of the 12 that I consider the most difficult: Op.10 No.2, Op.25 No.6, Op.10 No.4, Op. 25 No.11, Op.10 No.1, Op.25 No.8, Op.25 No.10, Op.10 No.7, Op.10 No.8, Op.10 No.11, Op.25 No.4, Op.25 No.12.
What are your opinions on this topic? I'm thinking about advising some of my friends on the order they should learn these, so I would really appreciate any opinions!

[liszt-and-the-galops]

10/6 is the easiest. 25/7, 10/9, 25/1, and 25/2 are all also pretty easy. So are the Trois Nouvelles Etudes.

The hardest could be any of 10/1, 10/2, 10/4, 10/7, 10/8, 25/4, 25/6, 25/8, 25/10, or 25/11, depending on what you're good at.

10/3, 10/5, 10/10, 10/11, 10/12, 25/3, 25/5, 25/9, and 25/12 are in kind of an intermediate tier, though some of them (10/10 and 10/12 in particular) are more difficult than others.

Hope this helps! :)

[dizzyfingers]

Hi everyone,
What is your ranking of the difficulties of the 24 main Chopin etudes from Op.10 and Op.25?
This is my ranking (hardest-->easiest) of the 12 that I consider the most difficult: Op.10 No.2, Op.25 No.6, Op.10 No.4, Op. 25 No.11, Op.10 No.1, Op.25 No.8, Op.25 No.10, Op.10 No.7, Op.10 No.8, Op.10 No.11, Op.25 No.4, Op.25 No.12.
What are your opinions on this topic? I'm thinking about advising some of my friends on the order they should learn these, so I would really appreciate any opinions!

As you might guess, a lot of people have had this question, resulting in more than a few videos on the topic on YT.  Here's the most recent - popped up on my feed last night. 

Ranking the videos is one thing, but articulating why is a whole 'nother challenge...

&t=10s

[eee-_-]

this is difficult to answer , since different people find different etudes more challenging , for me 25-6 was one of the easier ones , one of my first etudes that took less than a month to complete while 10-4 considered easier than 25-6 took me 2+ months to play somewhat accurately with perfect legato ( i am still working on it to make it better ) , also 25-11 which looks hard and seems very impressive is quite easy .

for me personally , the hardest ones ( by no ranking ) are - 10-1 , 10-2 , 25-4 , 10-8( its not the arpeggios that are hard to get its the colors ) and maybe 10-4 but i might remove this one from the hardest list

Chopin etudes are more than just " etudes " they are quite beautiful pieces , so part of the technical challenge is to play the beautifully with a good tone

[essence]

that took less than a month to complete

I'm no sure what you mean by 'complete'. It isn't like building a house. Most music of quality takes a lifetime. It is 'complete' when the pianist has died!

[eee-_-]

oh from complete i do not mean perfect , i mean to get it to final tempo from first bar to last bar without making any mistakes and with barely passable musicality , when i say it took me that much time to "complete" i only refer to getting it up to temp without making any errors with the notes , working on musicality is a different matter .

[essence]

Thanks. Plus, I assume, the right dynamics? 25-6 up to speed and right dynamics? In the first two bars?

Trifonov can;t do it. The thirds are not completely together, or consistent, in the first two bars.

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Just noticed - in the falling thirds around 1:20 he uses his left hand. That part is notoriously difficult.

Difficult to find any technical faults in Kissin.

i=-BwPbKFaYqiiZ8sA

[essence]

One of the comments says he practiced this for ten years before performing.

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Sounds pretty complete for my ears!

It is surely one of the top 3 hardest etudes, if not the top.

Interesting fingering with the 4-1 on the first note.

ps. I spent a couple of months on this 50 years ago, I have another 118 months to go.

[eee-_-]

well , any etude of chopin to truly grasp would take years , what i meant was to simply get it up to tempo with decent dynamics ( for me thats the part where you start actually learning the piece, understanding what you want with it) , from that i mean not doing a ff where its a p , and for me personally maybe because i had to practice double thirds before and i was familiar to them this was not in my top 3 , it would prob be 5th ( top 4 would prob be 10-4,10-2,25,4,10-1 )or below . to me getting the thirds right was not the hard part the hard part was ( and is ) getting it to sound good , still havent gotten that right . as for performing i wouldnt perform any chopin etude in a family gathering before 1 year of practice (except maybe 25-2) and something like 25-6 ( to get it musically "right" or decent ) wouldnt play that before 3 years , also thanks for introducing me to the recording of josef lhevinne .

[dsch313]

It depends on the person and what they've played before because they're all different techniques, but I think they can be put into categories:

Most difficult: 10/1, 10/2, 25/6, 25/11
Very difficult: 10/7, 25/4, 25/8, 25/10
Difficult: 10/4, 10/5, 10/8, 10/10, 10/11,10/12, 25/5, 25/12
Less difficult: 10/3, 10/6, 10/9, 25/1, 25/2, 25/3, 25/7, 25/9

[eee-_-]

It depends on the person and what they've played before because they're all different techniques, but I think they can be put into categories:

Most difficult: 10/1, 10/2, 25/6, 25/11
Very difficult: 10/7, 25/4, 25/8, 25/10
Difficult: 10/4, 10/5, 10/8, 10/10, 10/11,10/12, 25/5, 25/12
Less difficult: 10/3, 10/6, 10/9, 25/1, 25/2, 25/3, 25/7, 25/9

25-11 is actually not that hard compared to the others , it sounds really hard tho but once you try it you realize its kind of not that hard compared to monsters like 10-1 , id switch that one out with 25-4

[liszt-and-the-galops]

25-11 is actually not that hard compared to the others , it sounds really hard tho but once you try it you realize its kind of not that hard compared to monsters like 10-1 , id switch that one out with 25-4

Agreed. IMO the five hardest ChopEts are 25/6, 10/2, 10/1, 25/4, and 10/8 (with 10/7 and 25/8 being right behind them).

[eee-_-]

Agreed. IMO the five hardest ChopEts are 25/6, 10/2, 10/1, 25/4, and 10/8 (with 10/7 and 25/8 being right behind them).

Really? the sixths one is one of the hardest ? Personally for me its not quite as hard as 25-6 its easier that 25-6  10-1 10-2 and 25-4 , tho again this is just for me , i have in real life talked to a sum total of 0 pianist so i dont know for sure , and online i personally know 3 . 10-7 is really hard though ( not quite sure about exact difficulty i just started it recently with 10-1, so it could be like 25-11 but so far it looks scary)

[pianistavt]

Really? the sixths one is one of the hardest ? Personally for me its not quite as hard as 25-6 its easier that 25-6  10-1 10-2 and 25-4 , tho again this is just for me , i have in real life talked to a sum total of 0 pianist so i dont know for sure , and online i personally know 3 . 10-7 is really hard though ( not quite sure about exact difficulty i just started it recently with 10-1, so it could be like 25-11 but so far it looks scary)

I'm thinking about undertaking 10/7 (toccata), what did you find difficult about it?
I worked on 25/8 (sixths) - took a while to learn because of the fingering (I ended up using mostly my own) and some hand movement problems, getting the tempo up and making it sound like a piece of music is the hardest part.
Perhaps, mister eee-_- you could post a vid or two of your etudes so we can get a feel for what you mean by finished or semi-finished.  I could post my vid on 25/8.

[bach-busoni chaconne]

I'm thinking about undertaking 10/7 (toccata)

Just some advice if you are going to learn it--remember to make use of your wrist!

[dizzyfingers]

Just some advice if you are going to learn it--remember to make use of your wrist!

That's true for every Chopin etude, if not most every Chopin piece - ballade, scherzo, polonaise, etc.
What are you trying to say with "make use of your wrist"?

I'm experienced enough with Chopin to know the wrist needs to be very relaxed and able to lift and pivot in every direction...  this is probably what you're talking about.

thanks for the tip!

[lelle]

Just some advice if you are going to learn it--remember to make use of your wrist!

That's extremely vague and could mean a million different things. Care to elaborate?

[dizzyfingers]

The problem with learning a new Chopin etude, is that it sounds like chaos/crap/muck for quite a while 'til it's solidly under the fingers.  So you have to endure a disoriented soundscape for days and days, reminding yourself that you are an accomplished pianist, even though you sound like a plodding beginner.

This was my experience with 25/8, 25/12, 10/4 and I believe it will be the same with 10/7. 
Some of the slower ones are exceptions, perhaps.

[lelle]

By the way, why are so many of you saying Op 10 no 4 ranks among the hardest? It's nowhere near Op 10 no 1, 10 no 2, 25 no 11 etc etc IMO. You can hack through it even with shoddy technique. Many other etudes are way more unforgiving.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

By the way, why are so many of you saying Op 10 no 4 ranks among the hardest? It's nowhere near Op 10 no 1, 10 no 2, 25 no 11 etc etc IMO. You can hack through it even with shoddy technique. Many other etudes are way more unforgiving.

Probably because it's fast, though I think most of its challenge is getting it up to speed. IMO definitely not on par with 10/1, 10/2, 10/7, 10/8, 25/4, 25/6, 25/8, 25/10, or 25/11. Though I have seen people place it as high as the fifth most difficult and even second. Though with how subjective difficulty is, I assume that they have their reasons.

[dizzyfingers]

By the way, why are so many of you saying Op 10 no 4 ranks among the hardest? It's nowhere near Op 10 no 1, 10 no 2, 25 no 11 etc etc IMO. You can hack through it even with shoddy technique. Many other etudes are way more unforgiving.

This is why "hardest" discussions go no where quickly .. it's very subjective, dependent on the individual.

I think 10 / 1 is not so hard - it's the same pattern throughout, if you have a big hand, it flows easily, plus it's 90% pedaled.  It's much easier to fake than 10/4, which requires very precise articulation, precise rhythm with no pedal, and careful dynamics.

[ash120]

This is why "hardest" discussions go no where quickly .. it's very subjective, dependent on the individual.

I couldn't have said this better myself!

[dnak441]

This is all subjective but here are my thoughts

Hardest by a lot is Op 10 no 1. I take my hat off for anybody that can pull it off clean and with minimal pedal.

Then in the less hard but extraordinarily difficult tier: 10/2, 25/6, 25/10, 25/11

Hard but doable: 10/4, 10/7, 10/10, 25/8, 25/12

Easier: 10/3, 10/5, 10/6, 10/8, 10/9, 10/11, 10/12, 25/1, 25/2, 25/3, 25/4, 25/5, 25/7, 25/9

[ash120]

Always good things to play!
This idea has been rehashed a lot but difficulty, especially in something like this, is subjective, since naturally, everyone has different hands, dealing with different strengths and weaknesses of technique.
Not sure how this happened but...I personally find Op. 25/11 (Winter Wind) on par with Op. 25/1 (Aeolian Harp). Quite possible I'll be flamed by this but I struggle with the latter slightly more, often overcompensating with making the melody slightly too loud at times. I tend to bring out the running chromatic line a lot in no. 11 (but I often do that with hidden melodies and layers, for example, the last note of every group of 6 in the piu mosso section of Waltz Op. 64/2) but it just flows easier than no. 1 for me. Easier to ride the motion. I tend to find both of these etudes easier than Op. 10/9 (F minor), as my left hand is  quite weak. I struggle with making it sound precise and refined (especially in the LH bass) and resort to overpedaling in the climatic points, and making my dynamics overly...2 dimensional?
For some reason I find Op. 25/6 more straightforward than a lot of people say, I realized very quickly that as long as you stick to good fingerings, it becomes much more manageable (I struggle with the left hand double thirds though). I find Op. 10/2 (Chromatique) primarily about getting to speed, the 3-4-5 pattern is less of a struggle.
I find Op. 25/2 and Trois Novelle no. 1 to be the easiest of the etudes and Op. 25/12 to be harder than Op. 10/1.

[the_franzliszt]

Obviously this will be very subjective, and I've only learned and played a select handful of them.

Most Difficult - Least Difficult

Hope the list down below helps

Edit - the reason its split between two messages is because i tried to edit this one (the OG one and ended up quoting the changes instead)

[the_franzliszt]

Op.25 No. 6 "Thirds"
Op.10 No.2 "Chromatique"
Op.25 No.12 "Ocean"
 Op.10 No. 1 "Waterfall"
Op.10 No. 4 "torrent"
Op.25 No.11 "Winter Wind"
Op.10 No.11 "Arpeggio"
Op. 25 No. 1 "Aeolian Harp" (IKIK)
Op.10 No.12 "Revolutionary"
Op.10 No.8 "Sunshine"
Op.10 No.3 "Led Adieux"
Op.10 No.10,
 Op.10 No.7 "Toccata"
Op.25 No. 4
Op.25 No.8 "Fifths"
Op.25 No.10 "Octaves"
Op.10 No.5 "Black Keys"
Op.25 No.3 "Horseman"
 Op.25 No. 5 "Wrong Note"
Op.25 No.2 "The Bees"
Op.25 No.9 "Butterfly"
Op.10 No.9
Op.25 No.7 "Cello"
 Op.10 No.6 "Lament"

[lelle]

If I understand your post correctly you rank op 25 no 12 as 3rd most difficult? I disagree, that one is on the lower end of Chopin Etudes IMO. Master one moderately difficult issue and you got the whole etude pretty much.

[the_franzliszt]

Yes, I'm ranking it third hardest based on the fact fast arpeggios have never been my strong suit. I can obviously play a piece with them and perform it with enough practice and time but comparing this to some of the others I feel they are easier. What would you end up replacing it with?