Working on Schubert op90-1 , How can I improve musicality ?

[eee-_-]

I have been working on the op 90-1 impromtpu for about 60 days now , the notes are completely secure , however i do not like my playing , how do i study or improve on things like color , phrasing , timbre , and over all making the piece sound more , well , alive and not monotonous and boring . I can hear these things in performances very clearly , for example some violin concertos like Mozart vc no 5 , however I myself cant make do it very well . I have ideas on where i want to do certain things musically but its quite hard to achieve it , for example bar 119 onwards , how do i do that well , For reference hear kempff's recording , in my opinion its the best recording out there of this piece.

[eee-_-]

i=dSa8JnWTU5yYvtla


this is the recording , the part i meant is on 5:32 onwards

[essence]

Some of the difficulties with Schubert are keeping repeated notes pp. For example from 7:00.

Kempff was a master at this. Have you had any technical advice on how to achieve this? Anybody want to add their 2 cents?

I am ignorant, but a very relaxed hand and not raising repeated notes fully may help - or maybe not!

Not sure i know what you are asking - it seems that you have an idea how to make it more musical, but what comes out of your fingers is not what you have in your mind?

Suggestion - listen very carefuly the dynamics of Kempff's repeated notes, and try to emulate with LH alone. Then make them your own.

ps.you will never be able to fully emulate kempff. One of my favourite recordings by him is of a Faure nocturne - I have no idea how he achieves it

i=xUSP0tOlI8TVhhll

Note from 4:00. How on earth? I haven;t heard anyone else come close.

[dizzyfingers]

I have been working on the op 90-1 impromtpu for about 60 days now , the notes are completely secure , however i do not like my playing , how do i study or improve on things like color , phrasing , timbre , and over all making the piece sound more , well , alive and not monotonous and boring . I can hear these things in performances very clearly , for example some violin concertos like Mozart vc no 5 , however I myself cant make do it very well . I have ideas on where i want to do certain things musically but its quite hard to achieve it , for example bar 119 onwards , how do i do that well , For reference hear kempff's recording , in my opinion its the best recording out there of this piece.

I don't know how long you've been playing piano but it takes years to develop your technique to the point where you can play beautifully - with a full round tone, subtle dynamic changes, nuanced articulation, carefully architected phrasing. 

The best we can offer you is to review your technique in a video you submit.

I think the quickest way to develop a good classical technique is to work on Czerny studies - op 299 or 740 are standards for the serious piano student.  You have to apply all the above qualities to these as well, even though they don't seem to invite that.

[brogers70]

I have been working on the op 90-1 impromtpu for about 60 days now , the notes are completely secure , however i do not like my playing , how do i study or improve on things like color , phrasing , timbre , and over all making the piece sound more , well , alive and not monotonous and boring . I can hear these things in performances very clearly , for example some violin concertos like Mozart vc no 5 , however I myself cant make do it very well . I have ideas on where i want to do certain things musically but its quite hard to achieve it , for example bar 119 onwards , how do i do that well , For reference hear kempff's recording , in my opinion its the best recording out there of this piece.

If all the notes are secure, that's great. This piece is pretty difficult to voice beautifully, as you are finding. So some general suggestions.

1. Sing the lyrical bits as musically as you can. Then play just the melody and try to imitate the phrasing you used when you sang. Then add in the rest and listen carefully to hear that you are still phrasing the melody as you sang it.

2. For me the all around most difficult variation to voice well was the one beginning in bar 124. The bass has to sound like a pizzicato cello, the middle voice arpeggios have to be gentle and harp-like and the melody, mostly carried by the fifth finger, has to be legato and well shaped. So to distinguish the two voices in the RH you can try playing the melody forte and legato and the arpeggios piano and staccato (that's not necessarily how you'll play in the end, but it helps get you used to vicing and articulating differently in the same hand. Then add in the LH pizzicato bass, softly. Then do what I suggested above in #1 for the melody to make sure you are shaping it as though it were a vocal line.

3. Remember that in the forte passages, not everything is forte, voice the melody at forte and hold back on the accompaniment. Also, don't keep forte at a constant volume, but make sure you have small dynamic changes within the phrase. Otherwise it sounds loud but dead.

4. In the variation that starts in m138 the tune is in the bass and there are a lot of chords in the RH, some of them repeated. Don't let the RH drown out the melody, and within the RH, shape the chords. In particular, when the same chord is repeated twice don't just bang it out twice at an equal forte, but decide whether it should be loud-softer or soft-louder. Likewise, in the tune where there are repeated notes make sure they are not identical, but are going somewhere, either up or down in dynamics, based on how you would sing them.

5. Those two beautiful passages, the one starting at m74 and the similar one later, with the 2 against 3, should just break your heart, but to do that you have to restrain the repeated chords in the accompaniment enough to let the melody be shaped and heard. For these repeated chords, and in other places for the repeated octaves or single notes, you have to do as someone else suggested, keep your hand on the keys, don't release fully during the repeated notes. You can also try ghosting those notes, just touching the keys lightly without producing any sound at all, and then work up the volume from there.

That's all I can think of right now. It's a wonderful piece (somebody said that when Schubert writes in minor the music is sad, but when he writes in major it is tragic, I'll be they were thinking of this piece). Very difficult to voice beautifully, but 100% worth spending time trying.

[eee-_-]

I appreciate all the advice. For those who inquired about my technique, I have thus far worked on Chopin's etudes: 25-6, 10-4, 10-12, and a bit of 25-1. Currently, I am beginning 10-1. Additionally, I have tackled some variations of Alkan's Aesop's Feast and the initial pages of Liszt's Spanish Fantasy (I had to stop this a couple of years ago due to an injury). I can manage the voices reasonably well in this impromptu, and the repeated pp chords do not pose a challenge. The real concern lies in musicality. I previously mentioned bar 119 ; there are other issues as well. The entire piece sounds monotonous and does not flow as smoothly as Kempff's interpretation. I do not wish to listen to him excessively and mimic his style; I desire to create my own version. Consequently, I cannot listen to others too much. Regarding the section from bar 124, I have no difficulties there and am somewhat pleased with my sound in that part (it took me 2-3 weeks to determine how to make it sound appealing and how to play the left hand in a manner that complements the right hand). The challenge with pieces like this is that I cannot simply practice my way through them. For instance, with pieces by Alkan, such as Scherzo Diabolico, I can practice extensively, and it will eventually come together. However, in this case, practicing a lot may not yield positive results; in fact, it could worsen my sound due to the fatigue that accumulates over time making the piece unbearable to both listen and play . I speak from experience, having encountered a similar issue with Beethoven's Sonata No. 27 earlier this year, specifically in the second movement. In this piece i can do individual phrases decently (with the exception of bar 119-124) however the whole piece dosent come together properly .

[brogers70]

If everything else is in place, then I think you have to decide about what's the story in the piece, what emotional progression is it expressing. I mean you've got multiple musical ideas, the crack of doom with the opening octaves, the grim, funeral marchy section in chords and dotted rhythms, the subsequent lyrical bit with flowing triplets, the aching 2 against 3 sections. If this were Beethoven, he'd have wrestled from the opening ominous bit to something affirmative and triumphant at the end, but Schubert keeps blending the ideas together - for example, the flowing triplet arpeggios turn into the insistent repeated notes accompanying the funeral march theme, the funeral march them transforms into a piano, major version, that is still tinged with minor at the very end. So you have to think in your mind is this something like the slow movement to Beethoven's 4th Piano Concerto where the grim theme is tamed and transformed in the end, or does the menace persist, hidden in the major section at the very end. There's terror, mourning, defiance, love, nostalgia, heartbreak all mixed together in this piece, and the great performances are by people who've thought and felt about how they interact and what dominates in the end.

[essence]

i don't think any more advice can be given without listening to a recording.

[dizzyfingers]

a picture is worth a thousand words
so is a recording

the OP clearly has an advanced technique, we're talking minutiae - subtle details in sound in certain sections of the piece - his playing compared to Kempff's - I see I've wasted my time responding

[lostinidlewonder]

Sorry I always tend to be the voice of dissidence, but this just has me wondering.

Chopin etudes: 10-4, 10-12, 25-6, 25-1
These are highly technical, very demanding, finger independence, fast runs, octaves, intricate polyrhythms. And a historical post from OP was "...pieces that were really tough to conquer like 25-6 etude , 10-4 etude by chopin felt like a walk in a park because of my improved technique " 25-6 a walk in the park..... hmmmmmmmm

Alkan: Aesop’s Feast and Scherzo Diabolico
these are notorious for absurd difficulty, stamina, and hand independence.

Liszt Spanish Fantasy:
early pages are already tricky, full of octaves and jumps.

Beethoven Sonata No. 27:
not as monstrous as the others, but still serious phrasing and expressive demands.

And then suddenly he treats Schubert Op. 90 No. 1 as if it’s an overwhelming challenge, complaining that he can’t get the musicality or flow right after 60 days. By comparison, that impromptu is nowhere near the technical nor musical difficulty of the other pieces he mentions. It's bloody sight readable at tempo with full expression given the history of works learned lol.

[eee-_-]

Sorry I always tend to be the voice of dissidence, but this just has me wondering.

Chopin etudes: 10-4, 10-12, 25-6, 25-1
These are highly technical, very demanding, finger independence, fast runs, octaves, intricate polyrhythms. And a historical post from OP was "...pieces that were really tough to conquer like 25-6 etude , 10-4 etude by chopin felt like a walk in a park because of my improved technique " 25-6 a walk in the park..... hmmmmmmmm

Alkan: Aesop’s Feast and Scherzo Diabolico
these are notorious for absurd difficulty, stamina, and hand independence.

Liszt Spanish Fantasy:
early pages are already tricky, full of octaves and jumps.

Beethoven Sonata No. 27:
not as monstrous as the others, but still serious phrasing and expressive demands.

And then suddenly he treats Schubert Op. 90 No. 1 as if it’s an overwhelming challenge, complaining that he can’t get the musicality or flow right after 60 days. By comparison, that impromptu is nowhere near the technical nor musical difficulty of the other pieces he mentions. It's bloody sight readable at tempo with full expression given the history of works learned lol.

the thing about chopin etudes and alkan/liszt is that u can just practice a lot and you'll get there, as for thirds i had previous exposure to them thanks to my teacher ( well not really my teacher , more like an advisor at the time who gave me some exercises )  giving me some drills in my foundation days , i already used to practice chromatic thirds and other third scales making 25-6 not that hard , i dont remember saying 10-4 is a walk in a park(i checked my posts , that time i was comparing how hard 10-4 was before getting a teacher and how much easier it became after , not in general ) ,alkan Aesop's feast is absurd, to play it as a whole yes , however practicing just 3 or 4 variations of the piece is not ( i did 14,15,16,17,18 ), you said beethoven sonata is not as monstrous as others however to me thats as difficult as any other piece here because of the same reason why this impromptu is troubling me , a piece that repeats a lot of time tends to be hard to play well , and yes schubert 90-1 is quite literally a BIG challenge , to me technical difficulty is something that is easier to overcome than pulling off (convincingly) musical nuances , subtle details that separates recordings , If someone played this impromptu like kempff in front of me I would be far more impressed than if someone played all of those etudes . If you'd notice in my listed repertoire there is not more than 1 piece that is like schubert 90-1 demanding maturity , demanding very careful phrasing and planning because of the repetitions , it sounds monotonous if not done very well , For me personally , musical difficulty and phrasing a piece of music well , adding contrast in colors etc is far more difficult than playing any flashy etude , it is a completely different difficulty that cant be compared to those pieces . 

[essence]

Yes, something unconvincing going on.

He (is it a he?) also can't compare performance of Chopin ballade #1.

There are some people who have no ability to listen, and have a vastly inflated idea of their ability.

I'm not even convinced he has any technique. He may be making a pig's breakfast (a muddle) out of the pieces he says he can play.

I once listened to a pianist playing advanced pieces at Kings Cross station at a public piano. He played various advanced Chopin studies, and an advanced Beethoven sonata movement (I forget which one). The notes were more or less there, but there was zero technique or musicality.

I chatted to him. He was self taught. Was a merchant seaman. just got off a ship. You could tell from his hand and finger positions that he had never been taught. The fingers were straight throughout. But I still admired his efforts. He gave the impression of being neuro divergent.

just read the latest post. I agree with much of what he said. My test of pianists is the Hammerklavier slow movement. nothing technically difficult in it.

eee - how old are you, if that is not too rude? Can you not post a recording? I have posted recordings, and they are abysmal, so you have nothing to fear!

[eee-_-]

a picture is worth a thousand words
so is a recording

the OP clearly has an advanced technique, we're talking minutiae - subtle details in sound - his playing compared to Kempff's - feels like I wasted my time to respond (without a video of his playing)

Any and all advice is useful , For example one posted by brogers70 here , ( for example , i recorded myself on the 2nd page of the piece [the part where lh has triplets for the first time ]  and realized that i was playing too vertically and didnt think of the whole section as one big thing so the right hand was a bit disconnected ) , and couple of the things he said were also quite useful , for example the cello pizzicato analogy , The one i used before was not the cello pizzicato sound it was more of a response to the RH and i didnt think of it as any other instrument ( which i should have since it makes a lot of sense ) ,

As for my ability to compare recordings , that question i asked recently about zimerman was out of curiosity , Some people i genuinely trusted said that it had no soul which made me a bit confused .

[eee-_-]

Yes, something unconvincing going on.

He (is it a he?) also can't compare performance of Chopin ballade #1.

There are some people who have no ability to listen, and have a vastly inflated idea of their ability.

I'm not even convinced he has any technique. He may be making a pig's breakfast (a muddle) out of the pieces he says he can play.

I once listened to a pianist playing advanced pieces at Kings Cross station at a public piano. He played various advanced Chopin studies, and an advanced Beethoven sonata movement (I forget which one). The notes were more or less there, but there was zero technique or musicality.

I chatted to him. He was self taught. Was a merchant seaman. just got off a ship. You could tell from his hand and finger positions that he had never been taught. The fingers were straight throughout. But I still admired his efforts. He gave the impression of being neuro divergent.

just read the latest post. I agree with much of what he said. My test of pianists is the Hammerklavier slow movement. nothing technically difficult in it.

eee - how old are you, if that is not too rude? Can you not post a recording? I have posted recordings, and they are abysmal, so you have nothing to fear!

I am around 18 , I will post a recording soon enough , currently have academic exams so its hard to make a good recording , i have lrsm exam coming up soon i will send these recordings here since this place seems like it could help me grow a lot , ( i usually hate recording myself  or hearing myself play becuase i am too focused on what i did wrong and cant enjoy it , and try it again try to make it better , which ends up ruining the piece because of me consistently trying to fix small things getting frustrated over it and sooner or later getting emotionally detached from it , however i will surely send a recording here)

[lostinidlewonder]

the thing about chopin etudes and alkan/liszt is that u can just practice a lot and you'll get there, as for thirds i had previous exposure to them thanks to my teacher ( well not really my teacher , more like an advisor at the time who gave me some exercises )  giving me some drills in my foundation days , i already used to practice chromatic thirds and other third scales making 25-6 not that hard ,

Sorry no one says 25=6 is not that hard unless they are a technical genius of a very high order.

i dont remember saying 10-4 is a walk in a park(i checked my posts , that time i was comparing how hard 10-4 was before getting a teacher and how much easier it became after , not in general )

Well a walk in a park is a walk in a park. If it were still challenging it'd not be a walk in the park by any comparison or stretch of the imagination.

...10-4 etude by chopin felt like a walk in a park compared to how hard they were before because of my improved technique under him .

,alkan Aesop's feast is absurd, to play it as a whole yes , however practicing just 3 or 4 variations of the piece is not ( i did 14,15,16,17,18 ), you said beethoven sonata is not as monstrous as others however to me thats as difficult as any other piece here because of the same reason why this impromptu is troubling me , a piece that repeats a lot of time tends to be hard to play well

The point is they are huge compared to the schubert. The musicality of the schubert is literally nothing by comparison.

, and yes schubert 90-1 is quite literally a BIG challenge , to me technical difficulty is something that is easier to overcome than pulling off (convincingly) musical nuances , subtle details that separates recordings , If someone played this impromptu like kempff in front of me I would be far more impressed than if someone played all of those etudes .

This is full of oddities. Your placing of op90 no1 to such an extreme height compared to the rest its quite comical to me. It's literally like saying, bah who cares about Fur Elise, play Mary Had a little lamb at a high level ill be impressed!!

If you'd notice in my listed repertoire there is not more than 1 piece that is like schubert 90-1 demanding maturity , demanding very careful phrasing and planning because of the repetitions , it sounds monotonous if not done very well , For me personally , musical difficulty and phrasing a piece of music well , adding contrast in colors etc is far more difficult than playing any flashy etude , it is a completely different difficulty that cant be compared to those pieces .

This is just odd to such an extent it's not really a valid opinion imho.  Schubert’s Op.90 No.1 does have some interpretive challenges (mainly phrasing long lines, keeping balance in repeated chords, and sustaining tension across repetition). But compared to Schubert’s late sonatas or something like the B-flat Impromptu Op.142 No.3 with endless variations, Op.90 No.1 isn’t regarded as a “musical Everest.”
The musical ideas are clear and direct, the structure is straightforward. For a pianist with a solid grasp of voicing, dynamics and tone, it’s not considered unusually difficult to make musical, its quite sight readable.

[eee-_-]

Sorry no one says 25=6 is not that hard unless they are a technical genius of a very high order.
Well a walk in a park is a walk in a park. If it were still challenging it'd not be a walk in the park by any comparison or stretch of the imagination.The point is they are huge compared to the schubert. The musicality of the schubert is literally nothing by comparison.
This is full of oddities. Your placing of op90 no1 to such an extreme height compared to the rest its quite comical to me. It's literally like saying, bah who cares about Fur Elise, play Mary Had a little lamb at a high level ill be impressed!!
This is just odd to such an extent it's not really a valid opinion imho.

it seems you have not tried pieces like op90-1 b4 , it is way way way harder to play op 90-1 convincingly in terms of musicality and structure than it is to play any chopin etude in terms of musicality , technically they are MUCH MUCH harder than 90-1 sure but op 90-1 is quite a lot harder to play well (musically well )compared to chopin etudes (again i am only referring to musicality here) , "The point is they are huge compared to the schubert. The musicality of the schubert is literally nothing by comparison". that quote to me is ridiculous , the amount of skill you would need to pull off that impromptu is really a lot more than youd need to pull of 10-4 convincingly ( musically , since in 10-4 most of the work to make it sound good is already done by chopin and its quite flashy , you dont need to put much thought there) , i suggest you try the piece before saying things like that , once you have sightread it compare yourself to kempff and realize how much better kempff sounds , then comment on the difficulty of the piece , to me it seems you havent played pieces like 90-1 or beethoven no 27 sonata 2nd movt , and if you have you didnt pay much attention to them . Personally speaking these slower monotonous and " easier " pieces are what truly shows capabilities of a pianist , to the point that if I were told to test a pianist , instead of choosing a chopin etude i would choose a 2nd slow movt of a beethoven or mozart sonata , or some of the schubert sonatas .

Now for the "walk in the park" case , Before getting a teacher i had quite rigid technique , to the point where i injured myself and couldnt play piano for a year , after getting a teacher who fixed my technique , playing certain sections of the etude 10-4 felt MUCH MUCH easier , that walk in the park was a comparison to how hard it felt before , not saying that the piece is easy .

Please get familiar with pieces like op 90-1 and beethoven no 27 II movt , before comparing the difficulty of these pieces with etudes , because as someone who has done both , To be completely honest , It was much harder for me personally to get op 90-1 somewhat bearable to listen to than it was to get chopin op 10-4 to sound listenable .

Also as for "no one says 25-6 is not that hard " there are clips of hamelin , ohlsson saying on camera that in their earlier days when they were learning this etude , the thirds were never really the problem , the problem was to make them sound good , at that age they were not a technical genius of very high order

[eee-_-]

Some of the difficulties with Schubert are keeping repeated notes pp. For example from 7:00.

Kempff was a master at this. Have you had any technical advice on how to achieve this? Anybody want to add their 2 cents?

I am ignorant, but a very relaxed hand and not raising repeated notes fully may help - or maybe not!

Not sure i know what you are asking - it seems that you have an idea how to make it more musical, but what comes out of your fingers is not what you have in your mind?

Suggestion - listen very carefuly the dynamics of Kempff's repeated notes, and try to emulate with LH alone. Then make them your own.

ps.you will never be able to fully emulate kempff. One of my favourite recordings by him is of a Faure nocturne - I have no idea how he achieves it

i=xUSP0tOlI8TVhhll

Note from 4:00. How on earth? I haven;t heard anyone else come close.

Yes a relaxed hand is what I use for that passage , however not fully raising the keys is not an option since i play on an upright , i tried to remove my forearm from playing( as much i can ) those chords and just use the intrinsic muscles ( again as much as i can ) in the palm to play just with the fingers , and it worked for me

Thanks for the faure recording , i am a big fan of kempff , i never knew about this recording .
My favorite recording of kempff is his op 2-3 beethoven sonata , i recently found out about his goldberg variations , and they are also beautiful

i=BAqxgwtxpjvb8jGo

[lostinidlewonder]

it seems you have not tried pieces like op90-1 b4 , it is way way way harder to play op 90-1 convincingly in terms of musicality and structure than it is to play any chopin etude in terms of musicality , technically they are MUCH MUCH harder than 90-1 sure but op 90-1 is quite a lot harder to play well (musically well )compared to chopin etudes (again i am only referring to musicality here) ,

Ive played all the Chopin etudes and easily can sight read through op90-1 at mastery level. But it's not about me personally or you personally, its about the facts.

It’s true that some prodigies, like Hamelin or Ohlsson, may have found thirds manageable at an early stage. That doesn’t change the fact that this etude is universally considered extremely difficult. The technical difficulty isn’t about whether a few prodigies could manage it easily, it’s about the demands it places on most serious pianists. Saying “25-6 is not that hard” ignores that context. And both those pianists are technical geniuses of the highest order, the fact they managed it at a young age shows that they were and grew into that role because of it.

On your “walk in the park” phrasing: If you meant it as a comparison to your previous struggles, that’s understandable. But it was written in a way that made it sound like the etude was objectively easy. Language matters, the way it’s phrased can create the impression that you are minimizing one of the most technically and musically demanding Chopin etudes.

I get that you claim you personally struggle more with phrasing, voicing, and flow in Op.90-1 That’s fine, everyone has different challenges. But it is not accurate to claim it is "way, way, way harder" musically than 10-4, 25-6, or Alkan variations. Those works demand enormous technical skill and musicality. The Schubert is sight-readable for most advanced pianists and does not have the same technical or musical hurdles. Your statement elevates it far above its actual place in the repertoire.

Please get familiar with pieces like op 90-1 and beethoven no 27 II movt , before comparing the difficulty of these pieces with etudes

Lol. I've been teaching piano for 30+ years and played for 40+  tbh I play likely at a much higher level than you do and have played an enormous amount of repertoire by comparison. You have decades to catch up. They were brought up because you mentioned all these pieces you've conquered that are so much more challenging than the Schubert.

It’s fine to say "I personally find Op.90 No.1 harder to make sound convincing." That’s a valid struggle. But statements claiming it is objectively harder musically than Chopin etudes or Alkan are factually misleading and not supported by the broader piano community. You literally can't prove that point beyond a personal opinion and I'd never validate that as something people should consider is a truth, we can imagine all sorts of wrong things and believe it.

[eee-_-]

It’s true that some prodigies, like Hamelin or Ohlsson, may have found thirds manageable at an early stage. That doesn’t change the fact that this etude is universally considered extremely difficult. The technical difficulty isn’t about whether a few prodigies could manage it easily, it’s about the demands it places on most serious pianists. Saying “25-6 is not that hard” ignores that context. And both those pianists are technical geniuses of the highest order, the fact they managed it at a young age shows that they were and grew into that role because of it.

On your “walk in the park” phrasing: If you meant it as a comparison to your previous struggles, that’s understandable. But it was written in a way that made it sound like the etude was objectively easy. Language matters, the way it’s phrased can create the impression that you are minimizing one of the most technically and musically demanding Chopin etudes.

I get that you claim you personally struggle more with phrasing, voicing, and flow in Op.90-1 That’s fine, everyone has different challenges. But it is not accurate to claim it is "way, way, way harder" musically than 10-4, 25-6, or Alkan variations. Those works demand enormous technical skill and musicality. The Schubert is sight-readable for most advanced pianists and does not have the same technical or musical hurdles. Your statement elevates it far above its actual place in the repertoire.
Lol. I've been teaching pianof or 30+ years and played for 40+  tbh I play likely at a much higher level than you do and have played an enormous amount of repertoire by comparison. You have decades to catch up.

It’s fine to say "I personally find Op.90 No.1 harder to make sound convincing." That’s a valid struggle. But statements claiming it is objectively harder musically than Chopin etudes or Alkan are factually misleading and not supported by the broader piano community. You literally can't prove thst point beyond a personal opinion and if never validate that as something people should consider is a truth, we can imagine all sorts of wrong things and believe it.

Oh , i apologize if you have decades of experience you are more experienced on the matter then  , i may have spoken out of line , its just a first for me to see a person that says op 90-1 is easier musically , everyone including my pianist friends , teachers agree to the fact that op 90-1 has a different difficulty thats harder to get right compared to io 10-4 op 25-6 ,So far i never met anyone who has said" op 90-1 is nothing compared to etudes " 

[eee-_-]

Oh , i apologize if you have decades of experience you are  more experienced on the matter then  , its just a first for me to see a person that op 90-1 is easier musically , everyone including my pianist friends , teachers agree to the fact that op 90-1 has a different difficulty thats harder to get right compared to io 10-4 op 25-6 ,So far i never met anyone who has said" op 90-1 is nothing compared to etudes "

so far to me the slower pieces are much harder which is why i said all that

[lostinidlewonder]

Oh , i apologize if you have decades of experience you are probably more experienced on the matter then  , its just a first for me to see a person that op 90-1 is easier musically , everyone including my pianist friends , teachers agree to the fact that op 90-1 has a different difficulty thats harder to get right compared to io 10-4 op 25-6 ,So far i never met anyone who has said" op 90-1 is nothing compared to etudes "

I have NEVER heard anyone say that the Op90-1 is harder than a chopin etude in any way or form, especially not the ones you mentioned. Many pianists could sight read through the Schuman and play well but you'd find those who claim they could do the same for Chopin etudes would shrink in size considerably.

We just have to take the music and compare. You might be surrounded by "yes" people and thus get this highly marginalised perspective. But just analyze the scores and it becomes clear, its not really a matter of a
subjective opinion. That is why we have exam grades and levels, if it were all subjective it'd be impossible to judge difficulties.

[essence]

All musical pieces are very hard if you have high ambitions.

[lostinidlewonder]

All musical pieces are very hard if you have high ambitions.

Agreed.

Valid: “Op.90/1 is hard for me to play convincingly.” ✅
Invalid: “Op.90/1 is harder musically than Chopin 25-6 or Alkan Aesop’s Feast.” ❌

[dizzyfingers]

Given the OP is "around 18" I think we should cut him some slack.  He's used to talking to his peers - shooting from the hip is standard, the more hyperbolic the better.  Expecting well-thought-through statements is asking too much, in this setting.  He didn't know what he was getting into, some of the seasoned / sharpened minds here.

eee-_- :   stop writing about your pianistic pain points and start demoing them

[brogers70]

I do think that it is quite hard to figure out what Schubert was getting at in Opus 90 #1. A simple view could be that it starts as a funeral march and then progresses to some loving memories of the dead, nostalgia, lyricism, and then a peaceful resignation, and one could play it very acceptably from that point of view. I think, though, that it is much darker than that; there is more fear, the positive stuff is not anywhere near as positive as it appears at first blush and the ominous menace does not go away even when the first them turns to major near the end. I think the best thing for eee to do, other than living another decade or two, falling in love, getting his heart broken, experiencing loss and grief, etc. is just to listen to a lot of Schubert songs and song cycles and try to get into his emotional world.