Fast repeated motion

[kevink]

I am playing Liszt's "Dante Sonata" and am having some difficulty with developmental section in the first half where the RH plays very fast repeated octaves for an extended period of time.  This requires the same kind of motion as is found all over the "Erlkoenig."  I've been experimenting with different approaches, and none have been able to work consistently.  Has anyone found a way to do this kind of motion at length without the muscles seizing up?
Thanks in advance.

-Kevin

[lostinidlewonder]

Repeated octaves go well once you treat them as smaller groups of notes. For instance if you have 12 repeated octaves it would be good to visualise them as smaller groups within the 12. Like 3 groups of 4 or whatever. Depends on what else is playing with it. As a matter of memory it would be hard to sense 12 repeated notes, rather it is easier to sense the smaller groups.

On a physical level, as the speed of octaves increase the flexibility of the wrist must increase. Why? Well, slow octaves can be played with the entire arm moving and the hand(inflexible wrist, the hand and arm are like one), but try that at greater speeds and you will die from exhaustion. So the need to increase flexilibty of the wrist while maintaining a steady arm is stressed. Hard to offer this advice without sitting next to you. What approaches have you tried?

[allchopin]

Yes, I will reinforce lostinidlewonder's appraisal as I just got a similar evaluation today with my teacher.  I have been working on Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody (well-known for its octave passages at the coda) and had been having a similar problem.  Here is what my teacher proposed to me and that I now propose to you:
1)  Keep your wrist(s) supple
2)  Play them as in groups, as if the first octave of a said group is played with several echoing it (though you may or may not want it to sound this way)
3)  You may have the tendency to stick your elbow out - keep it closer to your body (although don't force it to be close - just dont force it to stick out)
4)  Be careful of ulnar deviation.  If your wrist turns to reach an octave, you could be straining your hand at an awkward angle and creating damage to the nerves in the wrist.   Rule of thumb, keep your pinky aligned with your arm.
5)  When you feel the tension, slow it down and look in a mirror to fix the problem.

[musik_man]

Are you really supposed to keep your pinky alligned with your arm?  When I stretch my hand for an octave, my middle finger is the one that's lined up.  I've never experienced wrist pains, but that might be due to my lower level.(~grade 7-8)

[steinwayguy]

The octave should be formed by the palm of the hand, not the thumb and pinky. The thumb and pinky are merely extensions of the octave mold. (Abbey Whiteside  )

Make a motion for each set of say, four. I start with my wrist parallel with the keys, and raise it ever so slightly over the next three. Then I move it back to parallel and repeat. Constant motion is the key to eliminating tension.

[kevink]

Repeated octaves go well once you treat them as smaller groups of notes. For instance if you have 12 repeated octaves it would be good to visualise them as smaller groups within the 12. Like 3 groups of 4 or whatever. Depends on what else is playing with it. As a matter of memory it would be hard to sense 12 repeated notes, rather it is easier to sense the smaller groups.

On a physical level, as the speed of octaves increase the flexibility of the wrist must increase. Why? Well, slow octaves can be played with the entire arm moving and the hand(inflexible wrist, the hand and arm are like one), but try that at greater speeds and you will die from exhaustion. So the need to increase flexilibty of the wrist while maintaining a steady arm is stressed. Hard to offer this advice without sitting next to you. What approaches have you tried?

Thanks everyone for your input thusfar. 

I've tried a lot of approaches... lots of working with the metronome to incrementally up the tempo, also practicing in "bursts" of two to three to four and on up.  I fooled around with moving the wrist up and down like SteinwayGuy suggests, and I didn't see an immediate improvement.  I've also tried taking advantage of the natural key spring by resting my hands on the keys and just "vibrating"--making the smallest movements I can.  That seems to work a little, but is hard to control.  Right now I am playing triplet eigths at quarter=120 to 144.  Like I said, it is inconsistent.  Sometimes fast and supple and other times it wants to seize.  I know my bicep is flexing slightly, as well as most of my forearm, for the duration.  A lot of the inconsistency is due to built-up tension from the passage-work that comes just before this part of the music, I think. 

Yes, this is a difficult one speak to because you all cannot see me at the piano.  Anyone know where I could find video of someone pulling this off?

Anyway, thanks.

Kevin

[lostinidlewonder]

Ill do a video of it for you if you send me a link for the score. Not the whole thing but the parts you want to see.

[Hmoll]

Try moving your arm in and out (from the front to further back on the keys), and your wrist up and down. As you move your arm towards the back of the keys, your wrist raises. As you move your arm back, your wrist lowers. What this does is allows you to use different muscles. Using the same muscles through the entire repeated note passage will cause fatigue even if you do it correctly.