Question RE: Practicing in Small Sections... aka Bernhard/Chang methods.

[00range]

I've been applying some of the things Bernhard has said on these forums, and things I've been reading in Chang's book.

One thing that appeals to me is how they advocate practicing things in small sections, one or two bars, or even half of a bar, depending on the relative difficulty.

I decided to try Bernhard's outline for Bach's Invention no. 1.

It takes between 20 – 40 daily 20 minutes practice sessions for someone who has never seen this kind of piece to master it. Here is the scheme I use:

10 practice sessions  (15 – 20 minutes each) to master the motif score:

     Session 1: bars 1- 2.
     Session 2 : bars 3 – 4.
     Session 3: bars 11 – 12.
     Session 4: bars 1 – 4 & 11 – 12.
     Session 5: bars 5 & 7 – 10.
     Session 6: bars 1 – 12.
     Session 7: bars 13 & 15 – 18.
     Session 8: bars 1 – 18.
     Session 9: bars 19 – 21.
Session 10: bars 1 – 21 (the whole piece).

14 practice sessions to master the piece with separate hands.

     Session 1 - bars 1 – 2 (Add first beat of bar 3.)
     Session 2 - bars 3 – 4 (Add first beat of bar 5.)
     Session 3 - bars 5 – 6 (Add first beat of bar 7.)
     Session 4 - bars 1 – 6 (Add first beat of bar 7.)
     Session 5 - bars 7 – 10 ( Add first beat of bar 11.)
     Session 6 - bars 1 – 10 (Add first beat of bar 11.)
     Session 7 - bars 11 – 12 (Add first eat of bar 13.)
     Session 8 - bars 1 – 12 (Add first eat of bar 13.)
     Session 9 – bars 13 – 14 (Add first beat of bar 15)
     Session 10 – bars 1 –14 (Add first eat of bar 15.)
     Session 11 – bars 15 – 18 (Add first eat of bar 19.)
     Session 12 – bars 1- 18 (Add first eat of bar 19.)
     Session 13 – bars 19 – 22
     Session 14 - bars 1 – 22 (the whole piece)
     
     15 practice sessions to master the piece with hands together:
     
     Session 1 - bars 19 – 22.
     Session 2 - bars 15 – 18 (Add first beat of bar 19.)
     Session 3 - bars 15 – 22.
     Session 4 - bars 13 – 14 (Add first beat of bar 15.)
     Session 5 - bars 13 – 22.
     Session 6 - bars 11 – 12 (Add first beat of bar 13.)
     Session 7 - bars 11 – 22.
     Session 8 - bars 7 – 10 (Add first beat of bar 11.)
     Session 9 – bars 7 – 22.
     Session 10 – bars 5 –6 (Add first beat of bar 7.)
     Session 11 – bars 6 – 22.
     Session 12 – bars 3- 4 (Add first beat of bar 5.)
     Session 13 – bars 3 – 22
     Session 14 – bars 1- 2 (Add first beat of bar 3.)
     Session 15 - bars 1 – 22 (the whole piece)

I used this exact layout, and have used it as a model to base my other outlines on.

My question is, say you're starting the first block of sessions, and you do 1 + 2 the first day, and it is A-ok the second day, so you move on and do 3 + 4. The following day 1-2 and 3-4 are golden, so you move on and do 5. ..

Now, it's been said that you're not supposed to repeat the same material twice in a day, as it's a waste of time. Following that, it seems to me like doing session 6 would fall to the next day's work, because you've already learned the material in it, so it would just be repeating the same thing twice in a day.

Is this correct? If not, what am I missing?

Thanks.

[bernhard]

As it is, this plan assumes one session per day. So yes, you would do session 6 the next day. And it should take you a minimum of 39 days to complete this piece working on it 15 – 20 minutes a day. (more if you need to repeat the same session several days in a row – which is a common occurrence).

Could you do it in less than 39 days? Sure. Just dedicate more than one practice session per day to different sections. Here is a plan that will get you there in 18 days minimum. The session times in brackets represent “joined” sections that can often be mastered in a fraction of the time of a totally new session, so you should be able to tackle more than one of those in a single session of 15 – 20 minutes:
(you must renumber all sessions from 1 to 39 for what follows to make sense):

Day 1: session 1 – session 2 – session 3 (3 practice sessions/day)
Day 2: [session 4] – session 5 (2 practice sessions/day)
Day 3 – [session 6] – session 7
Day 4 – [session 8] – session 9
Day 5 – [session 10] Session 10 – session 11 – session 12 – session 13 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 6: [Session 10 – session 14] - session 15 (2 practice sessions /day)
Day  7: [Session 10 – session 16] – session 17 (2 practice sessions/day)
Day 8: [Session 10 – session 18] – session 19
Day  9: [Session 10 – session 20] – session 21
Day 10: [Session 10 – session 22 – session 23
Day 11: [Session 10 – session 24] – session 25  - session 26

Day 12: [Session 10 – session 24 – session 27] – session 28 (2 practice sessions)
Day 13 : [Session 10 – session 24 - session 29] – session 30
Day 14: [session 10 – session 24 - session 31] - session 32
Day 15: [session 10 – session 24 – session 33] - session 34
Day 16: [session 10 – session 24 – session 35] - session 36
Day 17: [session 10 – session 24 – session 37] – session 38
Day 18: [session 10 – session 24 – session 39]

By day 18, have you noticed how mush you will have practised sessions 10 (the whole piece in motifs) and session 24 (the whole piece separate hands)? This means that it should take you only a couple of minutes to run through them on day 18, and you will have most of the practice session to do session 39. Does that make sense?

But let us say that you are really in a hurry. Here is a 12 day plan:

Day 1: session 1 – session 2 – session 3 (3 practice sessions/day)
Day 2: [session 4] – session 5 – [session 6](3 practice sessions/day)

But isn’t session 6 a repeat of session 5 and shouldn’t I leave one night sleep in between materials. Sure, but you are in a hurry, remember? And – as I am sure you experienced this before, even though you may have mastered session 4 and session 5, when you put them together as session 6 it will feel like a whole new animal. So just treat it as new material. Not the best way to go about it, but not impossible. It all depends what will happen the next days. If it keeps falling apart, then it was not a good idea. But if you can cope with it, then go for it by all means. None of this is written in stone. These are just general principles that must be applied to each individual. The final arbiter is your progress, it is as simple as that: if you are progressing, you are doing the right thing. If you are not progressing you must do something else.

Day 3 – [session 6] – session 7 – [session 8] – session 9 - [session 10] (5 practice sessions).
 
Day 4 – [Session 10] – session 11 – session 12 – session 13 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 5: [Session 10 – session 14] - session 15 – [session 16] – session 17 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 6: [Session 10 – session 18] – session 19 - [session 20] – session 21
Day 7: [session 10 – session 22] – session 23 – session [24]
Day 8: [Session 10 – session 24] – session 25  - session 26 – [session 27]

Day 9: [Session 10 – session 24 – session 27] – session 28 – [session 29] – session 30
Day 10: [session 10 – session 24 - session 31] - session 32 - [session 33] - session 34
Day 11: [session 10 – session 24 – session 35] - session 36 - [session 37] – session 38
Day 12: [session 10 – session 24 – session 39]

But why the hurry? I do not advise this at all. It is far better to so it in 39 days, and use the other practice sessions to learn another 4 or 5 pieces. They will be learnt far more securely and at the end of 39 days, you can easily have 4 or 5 new pieces under your belt. In a year that means 50 – 60 pieces in your repertory (2 – 3 hours of uninterrupted performance). Keep it up, and in five years you could have 300 pieces on your repertory practising around one hour, one hour and a half everyday. The only secret is consistency. Unfortunately consistency is the single most difficult thing in the whole universe. The whole universe will conspire against you so that you cannot keep the consistency. Observe it.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[00range]

As it is, this plan assumes one session per day. So yes, you would do session 6 the next day. And it should take you a minimum of 39 days to complete this piece working on it 15 – 20 minutes a day. (more if you need to repeat the same session several days in a row – which is a common occurrence).

Could you do it in less than 39 days? Sure. Just dedicate more than one practice session per day to different sections. Here is a plan that will get you there in 18 days minimum. The session times in brackets represent “joined” sections that can often be mastered in a fraction of the time of a totally new session, so you should be able to tackle more than one of those in a single session of 15 – 20 minutes:
(you must renumber all sessions from 1 to 39 for what follows to make sense):

Day 1: session 1 – session 2 – session 3 (3 practice sessions/day)
Day 2: [session 4] – session 5 (2 practice sessions/day)
Day 3 – [session 6] – session 7
Day 4 – [session 8] – session 9
Day 5 – [session 10] Session 10 – session 11 – session 12 – session 13 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 6: [Session 10 – session 14] - session 15 (2 practice sessions /day)
Day  7: [Session 10 – session 16] – session 17 (2 practice sessions/day)
Day 8: [Session 10 – session 18] – session 19
Day  9: [Session 10 – session 20] – session 21
Day 10: [Session 10 – session 22 – session 23
Day 11: [Session 10 – session 24] – session 25  - session 26

Day 12: [Session 10 – session 24 – session 27] – session 28 (2 practice sessions)
Day 13 : [Session 10 – session 24 - session 29] – session 30
Day 14: [session 10 – session 24 - session 31] - session 32
Day 15: [session 10 – session 24 – session 33] - session 34
Day 16: [session 10 – session 24 – session 35] - session 36
Day 17: [session 10 – session 24 – session 37] – session 38
Day 18: [session 10 – session 24 – session 39]

By day 18, have you noticed how mush you will have practised sessions 10 (the whole piece in motifs) and session 24 (the whole piece separate hands)? This means that it should take you only a couple of minutes to run through them on day 18, and you will have most of the practice session to do session 39. Does that make sense?

Excellent. I believe I follow you. Do you reccomend this method, the 18 day, over the previous 39 day, in that by the end you'll have repeated the whole piece with only the motif 13 times, and HS 8 times? As opposed to the original outline, in which you would only do them once - assuming that, they were miraculously mastered on the second day -  each?

But let us say that you are really in a hurry. Here is a 12 day plan:

Day 1: session 1 – session 2 – session 3 (3 practice sessions/day)
Day 2: [session 4] – session 5 – [session 6](3 practice sessions/day)

But isn’t session 6 a repeat of session 5 and shouldn’t I leave one night sleep in between materials. Sure, but you are in a hurry, remember? And – as I am sure you experienced this before, even though you may have mastered session 4 and session 5, when you put them together as session 6 it will feel like a whole new animal. So just treat it as new material. Not the best way to go about it, but not impossible. It all depends what will happen the next days. If it keeps falling apart, then it was not a good idea. But if you can cope with it, then go for it by all means. None of this is written in stone. These are just general principles that must be applied to each individual. The final arbiter is your progress, it is as simple as that: if you are progressing, you are doing the right thing. If you are not progressing you must do something else.

Day 3 – [session 6] – session 7 – [session 8] – session 9 - [session 10] (5 practice sessions).
 
Day 4 – [Session 10] – session 11 – session 12 – session 13 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 5: [Session 10 – session 14] - session 15 – [session 16] – session 17 (4 practice sessions/day)
Day 6: [Session 10 – session 18] – session 19 - [session 20] – session 21
Day 7: [session 10 – session 22] – session 23 – session [24]
Day 8: [Session 10 – session 24] – session 25  - session 26 – [session 27]

Day 9: [Session 10 – session 24 – session 27] – session 28 – [session 29] – session 30
Day 10: [session 10 – session 24 - session 31] - session 32 - [session 33] - session 34
Day 11: [session 10 – session 24 – session 35] - session 36 - [session 37] – session 38
Day 12: [session 10 – session 24 – session 39]

But why the hurry? I do not advise this at all.

I agree, at where I'm at right now, a dozen days doesn't seem hardly enough for me to comfortably learn a piece like this. Maybe, if I get to say, Invention 10, and I'm feeling pretty at home with them, I'd give it a shot, though.

It is far better to do it in 39 days, and use the other practice sessions to learn another 4 or 5 pieces. They will be learnt far more securely and at the end of 39 days, you can easily have 4 or 5 new pieces under your belt. In a year that means 50 – 60 pieces in your repertory (2 – 3 hours of uninterrupted performance). Keep it up, and in five years you could have 300 pieces on your repertory practising around one hour, one hour and a half everyday. The only secret is consistency.

Sounds nice. I'm trying to do something similiar, I've been working on three pieces this way, and they're coming along nicely. I try to put 6-8 sessions a day, divided up amongst the pieces, and, of course, not repeating the same session twice in the same day. I definitely feel a greater confidence in them, than some of the stuff I've learned otherwise.

Unfortunately consistency is the single most difficult thing in the whole universe. The whole universe will conspire against you so that you cannot keep the consistency. Observe it.

Blast you, universe. *shakes fist*

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Thank you sir!

[bernhard]

Excellent. I believe I follow you. Do you reccomend this method, the 18 day, over the previous 39 day, in that by the end you'll have repeated the whole piece with only the motif 13 times, and HS 8 times? As opposed to the original outline, in which you would only do them once - assuming that, they were miraculously mastered on the second day -  each?

No. I probably wasn't clear enough. On the 39 day plan, the learning is divided in three stages: first you learn the motifs (session 10 completes this stage). Then you move on to learn hands separate (session 24 completes this stage) and finally the piece with hands together. However, when you finish stage 1 and start working on stage 2, you keep practising session 10. Likewise as you play through stage 3, you keep working on session 10 and session 24. So , when you finally get hands together (session 39), you should have been repeating session 10, 29 times and session 24, 15 times. This of course will take just a couple of minutes of each session since these have been mastered, you are just going through them a couple of times (I suggest 3 as ideal) to make sure everything is still there.

Once you get to session 39, then your work on the piece becomes large scale: the minutiae of it have been mastered, and you are going to work on the piece as a whole. This of corse will take the rest of one's life. Tehcnique should not be an impediment anymore, you will be working on the musicality of it. You can then drop hands separate practice, although I like to go throug the motifs score from time to time just to remind myself what this piece is really all about (the retrogrades are particularly difficult to hear and remember what they sound like).

I agree, at where I'm at right now, a dozen days doesn't seem hardly enough for me to comfortably learn a piece like this. Maybe, if I get to say, Invention 10, and I'm feeling pretty at home with them, I'd give it a shot, though.

Yes, the number of days is not that important. The most important point is not to move to the next session until you completely mastered the previous session. Some sessions may take several days to master. Sometimes you may be able to master more than one session a day. It will depend on you and on the piece. This is just a general scheme. Sometimes it mus be adapted to the student (for instance, by breaking the sessions even further).

The way I suggest my students to do it goes like this:

Day 1: master (or try to master) session 1.
Day 2: start with session 1. If it comes easily (after a couple of minutes you are playing as good as you did  on day 1) move on to session 2. If there is any problem, forget about session 2 and relearn session 1. If you feel like it, learn session 2 in a separate practice session later in the day.

keep going like that.

So in certain pieces you may be practising the most difficult sessions everyday for a while, while in paralell you are learning other (easier) sessions at different times during the day.

Sounds nice. I'm trying to do something similiar, I've been working on three pieces this way, and they're coming along nicely. I try to put 6-8 sessions a day, divided up amongst the pieces, and, of course, not repeating the same session twice in the same day. I definitely feel a greater confidence in them, than some of the stuff I've learned otherwise.

Yes, this is like building a house or making a 4 course meal. You cannot work in a sequential way. You must organise the whole task in small chunks that are donemore or less at the same time: while the foundations set you are preparing the wood and buying material. While the potato cooks you are dicing the vegetables and preparing the salad. The dessert even though it may be served last usually is prepared first. So you must "analyse" the piece so that difficult bits are tackled first: they will take the longest to "cook". While they are cooking, work on the other bits.

Thank you sir!

You are welcome! (er... sir? I am always looking forward to my knighting by the Queen, but it hasn't happened yet - most unfair - if I may say so myself).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mound]

Hey Bernard, do you have a session breakdown for the Haydn Sonata in D No. 50?

[bernhard]

Hey Bernard, do you have a session breakdown for the Haydn Sonata in D No. 50?

Is that Hob XVI/37? If so I can give you a definite maybe

By the way, I seem to remember a thread where you tried to start a discussion on
"Effortless mastery". I searched for it, but I could not find it. Since you mentioned this book I've been meaning to get it, but somehow never quite got round to it. Then the other day, I was browsing on a second-hand bookshop, and this very book fell on the floor. And it was cheap too! So I decided that the Universe was sending me a signal and I bought it. If you are still interested in discussing it, I may have a thing or two to say.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[goose]

Hi Bernhard,

I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say about Werner's Effortless Mastery. I bought it a year or so ago and read through it with mixed feelings. Parts of it were very motivating and parts seemed a little laughable. (All his talk of relaxing pretty much everything -- including liver and kidneys! -- seemed a bit extreme. Not to say beyond me.)

As someone pointed out (on an Amazon review, I think), Werner is operating at a high level. Basically, his methods would seem to work when your technical house is pretty much in order. What he's offering is the ability to let go, 'find the zone', and perform without inhibitions. When he says you must feel that every sound you play is 'the most beautiful sound you've ever heard', I think there's a little objective guy inside me that knows that's not true  . But I DO think that this attitude is probably what's needed to progress from 'student' to 'artist' (or at least to self-teaching accomplished pianist).

As I've mentioned, I started off with jazz leanings and only got heavily into classical playing in the last year or two. Werner's book is pretty much established as a standard text in the jazz world because (a) it's largely about improvisation, and (b) he is a wonderful jazz pianist, so has instant credibility. I imagine many people on this forum are classical pianists who feel that improvisation is perhaps a rather scary and alien world. So if you can present a 'way in' for classical pianists and Effortless Mastery, I'm sure you'd be doing many people here a great service (as usual).

My takeaway was that there was probably much of value in there for me, but that I'd be better off improving my classical and jazz playing through other practice methods first. But now I think the time has come to return to the book and see how my perspective has changed.

As you say...funny how these cosmic signs hit us at certain times. Maybe a new Effortless Mastery thread is the way to go.

Best,
Goose

[mound]

Is that Hob XVI/37? If so I can give you a definite maybe

By the way, I seem to remember a thread where you tried to start a discussion on
"Effortless mastery". I searched for it, but I could not find it. Since you mentioned this book I've been meaning to get it, but somehow never quite got round to it. Then the other day, I was browsing on a second-hand bookshop, and this very book fell on the floor. And it was cheap too! So I decided that the Universe was sending me a signal and I bought it. If you are still interested in discussing it, I may have a thing or two to say.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Hi Bernhard -  I am not sure if it is  Hob XVI/37, my text says "Cotta Edition No. 4"

I did try to start a discussion on Effortless Mastery, but it never took off. I'd love to hear your thoughts. We could always begin a new thread. If you look at a book like that as something that takes you over in stages:
1. read it once and think "holy **** this is big"
2. start developing your mindset based on what you've learned
3. sorta let it fall by the wayside
4. think to yourself, "wait a minute, that was big, I can't let that go"
5. re-read it with a better focus

I'd fall in the #4 category at the moment.. so much to read and learn, have to prioritize! (I got the book for Christmas) - I did mention to my teacher the book and his eyes lit up "yes! my teacher gave me that book years ago.. huge.. it was huge for me.. congratulations, I'm sorry I didn't think to give it to you"

-Paul

[mound]

ps. with regard to the Haydn Sonata in question, I saw Nelita True perform it just two days ago, taking a look back at the program, it is labeled as Hob 37, so yes, this is the Sonata in question. It was great to watch such a performer play it, I learned alot about the necessary movements simply watching..  I believe it will be all in the wrists and up/down motion of the arms, letting the fingers "be putty" as my teacher would say so as to "not get tendonitis and shrivel up and die" also as my teacher would say!

I might also note that Dr. True mentioned "this Sonata is also known as "the chicken" !

[nomis]

The only secret is consistency. Unfortunately consistency is the single most difficult thing in the whole universe. The whole universe will conspire against you so that you cannot keep the consistency. Observe it.

Bestest saying evah.

[mound]

Bestest saying evah.

I'll agree with that definitely.. I've been a big "proponent" of "these methods" and have tried very diligently to develop them on my own.. But I'm always finding "the universe is conspiring against me" to really keep consistency.. it's a constant struggle.

[00range]

You are welcome! (er... sir? I am always looking forward to my knighting by the Queen, but it hasn't happened yet - most unfair - if I may say so myself).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I hearby dub thee, Sir Bernhard, Knight of the Piano Forum!

 

[invisible]

Hi Bernhard -  I am not sure if it is  Hob XVI/37, my text says "Cotta Edition No. 4"

I did try to start a discussion on Effortless Mastery, but it never took off. I'd love to hear your thoughts. We could always begin a new thread. If you look at a book like that as something that takes you over in stages:
1. read it once and think "holy **** this is big"
2. start developing your mindset based on what you've learned
3. sorta let it fall by the wayside
4. think to yourself, "wait a minute, that was big, I can't let that go"
5. re-read it with a better focus

I'd fall in the #4 category at the moment.. so much to read and learn, have to prioritize! (I got the book for Christmas) - I did mention to my teacher the book and his eyes lit up "yes! my teacher gave me that book years ago.. huge.. it was huge for me.. congratulations, I'm sorry I didn't think to give it to you"

-Paul

I just recently got this book as well though I havn't read it yet.  I am inspired to do so now, more than ever.  I hope a discussion of it comes up soon and I will look forward to it.

sincerely,
invisible