Recording equipment recommendation?

[Pianorak]

I am trying to find a replacement for my old Ferrograph reel-to-reel tape recorder which has given up its ghost and is beyond repair.
I have been doing the round of the shops and everything seems “digital” and complex with dozens of tracks – and presumably intended for recording bands and pop groups. Have been looking at Tascam 788 HD Multitrack; Roland CDX1 Disclab and Yamaha AW 2816 Professional Audio Workstation. However, I am not at all convinced that I need or want any of those.
Could anyone recommend equipment best suited to record piano music on its own?

[pianistcomposer]

I like using a Sony Mini-disc recorder. It records at the CD quality level. You also need a good stereo microphone, with a decent length cord, and a tripod to prop it up near the edge of the piano.   Make sure that you record "manually," so that there is no automatic change in the recording level depending on dynamics.

If you got a DAT recorder, you could have even higher quality sound - many people use DAT recorders. It's a little tricky to convert the sound quality to CD, however. CD is 44.1 khz sampling rate, DAT is 48.

[Pianorak]

Thanks pianistcomposer -

I have just been doing a Google search on mini-disc and DAT recorders of which there are a bewildering variety. If offered a choice would you say I should go for a DAT recorder, and if so which one? I should add that I know absolutely nothing about mini-disc and DAT. Any drawbacks, pitfalls etc.? Not sure what you mean by "… to convert the sound quality to CD." Are you talking here about producing an actual CD - which presumably would require some more hardware?

[martin_s]

I think you should definitely go for a DAT, but that would probably be slightly more expensive than a Mini-Disc. Using a DAT-recorder is very similar to using an analouge tape recorder. And as far as I can remember most modern DAT recorders record in 44.1 Khz sampling rate or they might have a switch so that you can chose...

[nilsjohan]

The choice between MD and DAT depends on how you will use it.
MD is very practical and easy to use. It has decent sound quality which is good enough for recording your performances (or others as well!) or making demo recordings for competitions etc. Even if the sound quality on the MD format can come close to that of a CD most portable minidisc recorders is consumer products and has a rather poor built in mic amplifier. Has anyone seen a more pro oriented portable MD? (If there are any they are probably not much cheaper than DAT.)
One advantage with MD is that you can easily move tracks around on the disc and even make inaudiable cuts in the middle of a piece without having to transfer it from the disc to something else. (A nice feature if you are not prepared enough to make the "perfect" recording in one take... )
However, if you are a true friend of sound quality I would, as the previous speakers points out, go for the DAT.

[Pianorak]

Thanks everybody for helpful replies. So far I have spent hours and hours just ploughing through reviews of MD equipment.
At the moment I am wondering whether to go for a Sharp MD-MT99H  or a Sony MZ-R700. This latter is currently available at an unbelievable price of £100 from amazon.com. Add a mic at £50 and 10 disks at £10 and I should be in business. However, I am open to other suggestions. Actually I am surprised that such tiny equipment (a 2-inch stereo mic!!) will be able to cope with the sound from a Steinway grand!! However, the world is full of surprises and one lives and learns all the time. Next stop: DAT equipment and reviews. All suggestions and advice is more than welcome!

[Pianorak]

Slow as ever I have only just discovered that in addition to portable MD recorders there are the "grown-ups" such as Yamaha MD4S and Tascam 564 which may be the way forward. I don't think that any of the portables such as the Sony or Sharp mentioned above would fit the bill.

[pianistcomposer]

Pianorak -

You should buy a seperate microphone in addition to the DAT or whatever device you buy. I use a tripod with the mike attached to it, and a cord long enough so the minidisc can be settled on the floor or on a chair near the piano.

There are two main things associated with sound quality: a good mike, and the sampling rate. I'm not an expert on mikes, but be sure to get a stereo one. Sampling rates -
a CD quality rate is 44.1 khz, 16 bits. 44.1 khz is how many samplings per second, and 16 bits is the quality of the dynamic resolution (loud or soft.) Most minidisc recorders record at exactly CD quality, and have been for years. Older DAT's only recorded at 48 khz, which is better quality than 44.1 but it is not easily convertible to 44.1 (If it were twice the rate or half the rate, for instance, it would be easier.) If DAT's have a switch to choose between 48 and 44.1, you might want the DAT.

By the way - I banged around my minidisc one too many times and it got to the point where if it was tilted just a little during a long recording session, the entire thing would be lost. If it loses power while recording, the entire take can be lost - unlike a DAT. I fixed the problem however - just a bit of loose metal.

Good luck

[rmc7777]

This is great information.  In addition to the equipment issue, does anyone have recommendations on room acoustics or how to record piano music?  I currently have a Steinway upright in my living room, and will soon be getting a Steinway grand (probably a Model B).  Both pianos are (will be) in my living room, which has a low ceiling (about 8'), carpeting on the floor, some furniture, and a large pane glass window.  Under these conditions, do you simply set up the microphone near the main lid (of a grand)?  Or are there some special arrangements (of the microphone, furniture, etc.) that should be made to get the best recording?  I should say right up front that I know almost nothing about recording music so this is new territory for me.

[pianod]

Does anyone know if Sony MiniDisk recorder (the smallish portable one) has manual control for recording level? The sales person in The Good Guys said it had only auto control. Is that true?
Thanks...

[Pianorak]

Thanks for your reply, Pianistcomposer.

rmc7777 - you might find the following links helpful.

https://homerecording.about.com/library/weekly/aa061097.htm

https://homerecording.about.com/entertainment/homerecording/library/weekly/aa051397.htm

https://homerecording.about.com/library/weekly/aa101099.htm

[nilsjohan]

>pianod

All of the Sony MDs I have seen have manual recording level. It is a bit tricky to find it because it is not always in the menus. You just hold the rec button for one second and then you can adjust the recording level.

[Trimen1000]

Anyone have suggestions for portable recording?
I want to use the grand piano my school has but that means that I need to find a way to record without a normal huge computer. I do have a lab top but it doesn't have any place for a good microphone to plug in.

[dskim]

Wow, I totally missed this topic -- I don't know why I didn't see it before.  You see, I'm really thinking about the same stuff.  I'm entering a competition or two, and wouldn't mind a good demo CD anyway.

For a few years I've been getting good results for the money with a sony MD recorder (MZR-37) and a pretty good microphone -- it's a rather large sony microphone that comes with a table top tripod, has a moveable condenser head thingy and a switch for 90 degrees or 120 -- some of you might be familiar with it.  It works better in wet sounding halls, and for sub-$800 it's generally great.

However, I would not say that you can get studio results with it, and I would also like to edit the audio data.  That's why I've been thinking of upgrading.  Perhaps some of you could help me with suggestions.

My current hope is to get a Mac G4 powerbook and the digidesign MBox (which comes with the standard ProTools software) and a couple of good microphones.  So is there anyone out there who can comment on this idea?  I'm a mac user, and I've hear that macs are better for media work.  Is this right?  And what about ProTools.  I hear it's the best software out there, but I would love to have something cheaper -- all I need is the ability to splice and crossfade and perhaps equalize -- I will certainly never be doing anything with MIDI, overdubbing, multiple tracks, etc.

And what about the MBox (see digidesign.com)?  There are also cheaper analog to digital converters and preamps (though the MBox comes with the ProTools software), and ones that even sample at a higher rate (the MBox only goes to 48kHz)?  If a CD is the final result, do higher sampling rates make a difference?

Then there's microphones.  Any knowlege about them?

As you might notice, I've been trying to learn about this stuff and still have no idea what I'm talking about.  Someone noted that much of the equipment is geared for pop and rock production, and I noticed that also.  Anyway, if anyone has related experience, I would be delighted to know....

David

[88keys]

David, if your know how to edit audio, and if you happen to have a digital piano, there is a simple trick you can use to get great quality at virtually zero cost.

All you need for this is a reasonably good "mono" microphone and two earphones. If your digital piano doesn't have an internal floppy disk drive,  you'll need also need a midi connection with your computer.

This is how you do it:

First, make a midi recording of your performance. If you don't know how do to this, I'll be happy to give you more details - it really is very simple, especially for someone who already knows how to edit audio.

Now, connect small earphones into your digital piano. Don't put the earphones in your ears! Instead, place a reasonably good "mono" mic near the left earphone, and mask the right one with something soundproof.

Playback the midi data on the digital piano - you are, now, effectively, recording the left part of the would-be final stereo recording.

Now repeat the same procedure with the right earphone, and don't forget to mask the left one while recording.

As a last step, use an audio editor program (which I assume you already have) to mix the two parts into a single stereo wav file. Take great care to ensure that, in the mixed file, the left and right parts are in-sync: Even a 1/10 second delay will give rise to an easily noticable "echo" effect.

If you follow all these steps correctly, the result will be a great-quality stereo recording of your performance.

I know that this method sounds way too crude to give good results, but from experience I can tell that you it works! And this method also has the advantage of being totally independent on the acoustics of the room you're recording in.

[88keys]

By the way,

If you don't have a digital piano, and if you are upgrading your recording system anyway, you should consider buying one.

It might very well be cheaper than the stuff you are planning to buy, without any loss of quality. And it will certainly be much easier to maintain...

[Farrah]

Hi

I have just joined the Piano Forum, and thought that my dad's and my experience may be useful.

For recording from the grand piano, my dad (I am 12 years old) uses: a Behringer mixer to connect the microphone; a cable from the mixer to the VCR; a cable from a video camera to the TV; another cable from the mixer to a Sony MiniDisc Recorder (not the little one that you carry around) as a back up. My dad uses the Rode NT4 stereo microphone with 20 - 20,000 Hz.  The video camera can either be an analogue or digital. My dad uses both.

If you don't like the complications just use the NT4 directly to the digital video camera's external microphone input. The NT4 comes with the necessary cable for connecting to the video camera. My dad uses a Sony TR18E (digital) and a Hitachi Hi8.

Where do you place the microphone? Place it on a stand and let it face the centre of the open lid of the piano, about say 1 metre away from the piano. This is the position for classical music. (The NT4 captures only sound directly from the piano. You don't get the booming sound from the room/walls, or the noise from the traffic on the road!)

After recording you can transfer it to the computer and you'll be able to view the wave file and this will tell you whether you have done a good recording. If you use less expensive microphone, you'll find that the wave files are distorted. We find that the more expensive the microphone the more professional the recording! You can then transfer your recording from your computer to CD etc. (My dad has successfully recorded my French pieces: Ravel's Jeux D'eau, and Toccata; Debussy's Etude 7, and Isle of Joyeuse; and Pierne's Etude de Concert for Cecile Ousset to listen.)

Of course there are other alternatives, but the best is to experiment with the equipment you have.

Best regards.

[MikeThePianist]

I have a quick question about Mini-Disc recorders.  From some of the specs that I read on websites, I am under the impression that once music is put onto a MD from a live recording, it cannot be put onto a CD for easy playing.  Is this true?

[Farrah]

Hi

From the MD, I attach a cable to the microphone output and the other end to the computer - soundcard input. Using appropriate software, it is possible to record the output from the MD. This is saved as a wav file. From there on you can burn a CD.

Hope this helps.

[Farrah]

Sorry it is the headphone output, not the microphone output!

[rachfan]

An historical note: Here's how we did it a decade ago before MD and DAT:

I used a Nakamichi 2-head cassette deck--a great piece of equipment!  I hooked up three electric condenser mikes to a microphone mixer/power supply, which fed into the cassette deck.  I tried all the major cassette tape brands, and found Denon to be unbeatable--no harshness at all, just a true, warm, clear sound.   Placement of the microphones was critical.  The right and left mikes were on stands and placed about a foot from the rim of the grand piano, one by the bend in the rim and the other more toward the tail.  The "blend" microphone was centered between the other two, but about six feet behind the them on a boom to add spacial depth.  If you place mikes too close to the rim, the piano doesn't have enough breathing room.  The instrument needs some space to "make music".  If you get right on top of it, you get more mechanical noises of the hammers striking the strings rather than fully resonant tones.  I also had a remote control for the cassette deck on a long wire beside the piano bench, so that I could silently start/stop or easily set up retakes.  At the time if I wanted duplicate tapes, I used a Denon dubbing machine to produce them.  Years later, I took some of my analog tapes and had the music burned into CDs.  The results were good.  The one compromise was either masking the tape "hiss" with Dolby, or keeping the vibrant clarity and living with the hiss.  I chose the latter.  

That's how we had to rough it back then.  Hey, life was tough in the old days!