Bach Grace notes

[pizno]

Here's one for the Bach afficianados out there.  I have had 2 lessons with 2 different teachers on a Bach French Suite, and have gotten very different opinions.  In the Loure, I was first told that the grace notes have the value of an eighth note,  But by my own teacher, I was told that the grace note and the note it graces are switched in note value, so that the grace note is played for the longer value, and the 'graced' note is played at the dot of the dotted note.  In this way, the grace note is held for a very long time, and the longer note isn't played until after other notes are played.   I have tried to practice it this way but it is odd.  He has studied with Bach experts and seems to think this is the authentic way.  But I have never heard anyone play it this way! Anyone have any thoughts on this? 

[willfarnaby]

Here is a helpful (general) link:
https://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory23.htm

[whynot]

I checked that link-- it's quite interesting.  Great quotes and information.  Whenever people (like these two teachers) say that they've got Bach all figured out, or use words like "always," "never" and "only" in reference to Bach (or almost anything, really), it sets off my radar.  "Whoop whoop."  Both ways your teachers described could be considered stylish in Bach, and there are additional options that the teachers didn't mention.  People like rules because it makes them feel safe.  "No one can get mad or criticize my playing if I do _____"  But it's not a question of what you should do, rather what you can do-- which is almost endless.  It's a matter of taste and really respecting the music:  what's happening in the piece at that moment?   In a poignant piece, I choose the ornament and proportions that I think sound the most sad or unresolved, and in boisterous dance music I ornament in the ways that have the most life (to me).  Well, it's all dance music, but you see what I mean.  The ornaments give us ways to be expressive.  The modern version of this is pop and jazz singers:  they slide into notes, pop up and down between registers, and shift rhythms to be expressive (and perform nearly nude, but that's a different topic).  You can choose to express the rhythm, melody or text more strongly at a given moment with all kinds of ornaments played all kinds of ways.  There are some great performers out there doing fantastic Bach (IMO).  If you listen to what the hip early music people are doing right now, you'll hear how wide-open the genre can be.  That's why people get so addicted to this style, because there's a huge scope for expression.  You wouldn't think so to hear the way a lot of people play it, but it's true.  Ton Koopman (conductor, keyboards), Richard Manze (violin), John Eliot Gardiner (conductor), Rachel Podger (violin), Trevor Pinnock (keyboards), Jordi Savaal (gamba, amazing), Julianne Baird (soprano)... I could go on and on, but I think I just did.  Anyway, best of luck, don't let your teachers get you down.  Try everything!!           

[lostinidlewonder]

Grace note is a grace note. I didn't know it could be confusing. Usually grace note is played just before you play the note it is attached to, I don't think it is worthwhile trying to find its exact note value, the effect of its sound is much more important, lighteness and no length.

[xvimbi]

Grace note is a grace note. I didn't know it could be confusing.

Often enough, grace notes get confused with appoggiaturas and acciaccaturas. I think this is what this thread is really about, but I may be wrong.

[iumonito]

Where is Bernhard when you need him?  Bernh, please jump in.

Ornaments in general in bach and other baroque masters can be played one way on Tuesday and another on Wednesday.  There is no one authentic way, but many, to play baroque ornamentation.

For your question, you happily chose a very difficult dance, in the sense that there is no consensus on, for example, how fast it should go or what type of choreography the underlying characteristic dance would have had.

Although people I respect greatly think that the Loure is a fast dance, I personally like mine slow.  Played that way, I find it in good taste to play the appoggiaturas just a tad slower than the shortest value on the page (if it is written in 6/4, that likely would be an eight-note).

The division your teacher suggests, I feel, destroys the 2 2 - 2 1 grouping which I think gives the dance its character.  Groups of 2 1 - 2 1 sound less interesting to me, although there is nothing wrong with doing it that way every other Friday and the third tuesday after the first saturday of the months starting with J, if you know what I mean.

[pizno]

Thanks for your responses.  I guess I am talking about appogiaturas and accacciaturas, not grace notes.  As to the last response, thanks for your Loure insight.  I am having the same tempo issues with the Sarabande(can't remember if I mentioned that I'm talking about the French Suite in G).  Teacher number 1 told me a walking tempo, keep it moving, teacher number 2 told me to slow it down, play with the tempo a bit, more expression.  I've listened to different recordings, which has not helped at all.  I understand that everyone has their opinion, but each teacher seems to feel rather strongly about their own!

Thanks for the link to the website on ornamentation, too!

[xvimbi]

I understand that everyone has their opinion, but each teacher seems to feel rather strongly about their own!

That is the beauty of it. One can generally "get away" with a lot of things if they are presented with conviction, in a consistent way and are still compatible with what the composer had in mind (I did not say "what the composer had written", big difference.) Best is if you come up with a way how YOU would want to play it and if you have reasons for your choice. No reasonable person would condemn you for that if the choice is not entirely ridiculous. As I said, that is the beauty (of interpretative freedom.)

[whynot]

The grace notes in earlier music are a shorthand symbol for a number of expressive devices, like appoggiaturas (-ture?) etc., the grace notes are not their own separate thing.  Expressive color notes are sometimes notated as grace notes, but other times are written right into the melody with regular notes, and you can often see both ways in the same piece.  It doesn't matter.  And they're not necessarily meant to be played lightly.  What makes these notes expressive in this genre is the way in which they "press" against the harmony for that moment (that's why they need to start on the beat, not before).  So one way to be expressive in this style is to hold that tension longer before resolving to the regularly-written note.  Another way is to give more weight to that note, make it the strongest note of the phrase, and taper off on the resolution (shorter length and less volume).  The bows of stringed instruments of this period were shorter, calling for more frequent articulations and shortening of the phrases; and they were curved, which gave a gentle lightening and (more) shortening at the end of a bowing or phrase.  That's why, when you hear this music played (well) on early instruments, you feel all that lightness and tapering, and the dance-y feel of the shorter phrases, even when the playing is vigorous.  They didn't have big dynamic contrasts in most of the instruments yet, so they couldn't use that to be expressive (there were loud instruments and soft instruments).  Playing expressively meant making interesting smaller shapes, bringing out special harmonic and melodic moments by various ornaments, and highlighting rhythmic interest. 

[iumonito]

The Sarabande is the slowest dance you will find in a Bach suite.  It is not a Mahler adagio, but generally I agree with you teacher 2.  You need time to ornament richly.  Consider the sarabande of the a minor English suite your model.

The clue here is that generally you want to emphasize the iambic nature of the rhythm (that is, the measure moves towards beat 2, which often is the heavier and louder than the good beat).  That underlying pulse is the background of anything else Bach throws your way in terms of hemiola and other tricks.  Notable example: sarabande from the second partita.

Some sarabandes can go faster than others.  For example, the sarabande from partita 4 feels to me the fastest it gets (quite slow anyway).

[silva]

press Eb with your right index finger and immediately slide your same finger onto the E.... that my friend was a grace note (Eb) in blues they are also called ''crushed'' notes, I think this  creates a clearer picture as to what a grace note is,,, your crushing the grace note into the next note........