Practice!

[tadhg]

ok, well after 11 or so years of piano, i've decided to get serious! Up till now, i've plodded through grades, not really enjoying myself. But in the last year (and shorter, last months-im 18), i've started to love the piano and i can finally find things that i enjoy and want to play.At the moment, im learning Nocturne in C#Mi and E mi by chopin, along with a Rach Prelude (can't remember which!), and although these are somewhat challenging, i want to up it a level and move onto some etudes etc. So i'll need to start doing proper practive, scales and excercises and so on. Question is (finally), what is a generally a good routine to follow when practicing, and what should i be looking to improve. I've been looking through some czerny excercise which seem great, if a bit frustrating. I know everyone is different when practicing,but is there a general guidline?

While i have a topic going, i was also wondering, when learning a new piece, do you go through it all hands seperately, or go bit by bit to the end? Is there better method

[UncleBEn210]

Im sure all the piano whizzes will give you some seriously good advice, but until then, this might be of aid to you.

https://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/entirebook.html

UncleBen.

[Kassaa]

Search for techniques that you aren't good in, thirds, octaves, scales, arpeggios etc.
Practice them untill you can play them well. Practice scales in all tonality's. Practice one tonality untill you can play it on each way you want it (soft, crescendo, legato, staccato etc.) and then move on to the next one.

[sonatainfsharp]

Have you discussed these things with your teacher?

The e minor Nocturne is quite a gem, I still play it often and I first learned it in 8th grade, although I admit I didn't know what I was doing then. Which Rach Prelude are you doing?

A good place to start, if you know your theory, are with scales that match the key(s) of your rep. There is no point in starting with C Major, then G, D, etc unless you are learning theory, too. In fact, C Major is the most difficult scale to PLAY (but easiest key to READ, so we start with C Major). Don't worry about mixing your articulation, etc, at this point. Learn control with a forte tone for now, then comes speed and variations of the scales. You might as well throw some arpeggios in there, too, of course!

I never let my students (no matter what level) learn an entire piece hands alone unless there are a few spots to work out in one hand. Most of the time, especially in late intermediate music and above, the hands work together, so, for example, you might tackle a fingering in the R.H., only for it to not make sense at all once you get both hands going. Or, you might get some notes and a good tone in a L.H. melody, but once you add R.H. arpeggios, the L.H. gets lost again and you have to start over in a sense anyway. I tell my students that learning entire pieces one hand at a time it like learning a piece three times.

Also, if you HAVE to learn an entire piece hands separately just to get the notes, then the piece you are looking at is too difficult.  One of my pet peeves is/are teachers who assign music that is WAY too difficult for their students. The teacher thinks they are "challenging" the student, but the challenge can come from many other channels than simply from a piece where a student can't even get the notes. If you want to challenge a student, give them K.545 and make them play it 5 different ways, yet all be acceptable for the style. Don't give them Bach's First Invention one week and Chopin Etudes the next.  Okay, I forgot what my point was, sorry.

[tadhg]

wow, thanks for the input.
The Rach Prelude is Op32 No2. Its in c#min me thinks. I love it. Has a great "agitato" section.
Anyway, im fairly handy with scales, i've been doing them all along, so i know basically all of them (can't play all of them (properly) though!so thats something to work on).
One aspect want  to ,naturally,improve on is my fingering and speed. My left hand also is far weaker than my right. All the problems that intermediate pianists have a suppose. Im totally dedicated to improving so annoying/hard excercises are welcome!

[nomis]

I do not like scales, and consequently I never practised them. They are too boring for me, and I'm not bothered about being imaginative about them to bring about any improvement in technique. However, if you must practise scales, always have an aim in mind e.g. faster, better tone etc. This cannot be stressed enough. Playing them to "keep your fingers in shape" is a wrong mindset, and will probably be detrimental to your technique. It is also essential that you practise them hands separately too, as one hand will lag behind the other if you play them hands together.

As for you left hand being weaker than your right, it's a result of practising and learning pieces hands together. If you learn hands separately, you can concentrate on one hand at a time, and so in time you left hand will become proficient. I'm not saying that you learn every piece HS (e.g. It would be quite stupid for an advanced student to learn the Theme of Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, unless they want to bring out the left hand counterpoint), but it's a must for etudes like Chopin's "Revolutionary" Etude, as it's mainly focused on the left hand.

Finally, have a look at EVERY topic on this page of links: https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.msg56133.html#msg56133 . It's quite an interesting read.

[pianomann1984]

As fro as time goes to set your routine to...legend has it that Richter would practice for three hours a day...not less...and certainly never more!  As a rule, I myself aim for 3-4 hours of practice a day on what ever i need to do.  With excersises that are useful, Czerny is good, but I think that for good results, try the Jossefy/Dohnanyi excersises - they are pretty much all-encompassing technically and practiced with care, will stand you in good stead for playing most of the repertoire around.  But, as sonatainfsharp says - best to talk to your teacher.

[pianowelsh]

I always remember what piotr andrewseski said: ' the only reason pianists practice is to avoid total disaster' and its true! if we could just sit down and play to our hearts content we would - wouldnt we.  Therefore practice is 1. Exploration - finding out that which we cant yet do! 2. Concentration - working out why we cant do it ie my hand gets there too slowly every time or my finger is too flat and i get a lumpy sound everytime i have this figure or thats awkward to memorise - what does the harmony do etc. 3. Perspiration - Having done the hard bit really you have to work at ordering your brain and fingers to do the correct patterns and you have to repeat to build correct habits (usually first by isolating bits and then putting them in context). 4. (ive run out of ion's) but you have to practice the performance bit and contextualise everything at firts this might mean just playing through. Then maybe to parents or a friend, then a teacher then maybe your neighbours of something and build up to an exam or public performance - it all has to be practiced.
The same methods of practicing apply to scales/exerzises and of course pieces.
Its sometimes best to start with something you know better and scale your practice towards the less familiar things later but variety can be helpful in this respect.
Happy practicing!!!

[musicsdarkangel]

Im sure all the piano whizzes will give you some seriously good advice, but until then, this might be of aid to you.

https://www.sinerj.org/~loyer/entirebook.html

UncleBen.

this book is brilliant.  Thank you.

[sznitzeln]

Why does everyone keep saying C-major is the most difficult scale... I agree the C-major arpeggio can be somewhat aquard, but hardly the most difficult. F sharp major is clearly worse...

And even if C-major is the most difficult, why shouldt we start with it... So many pianists have started with C-major, and it worked out fine... Since many easy sonatinas etc are in keys with a small amount of accidentals, we should indeed start with these scales.... C-G-D-A ... and also C-F-B flat ... do these simultaneously... and scales should take up 0-20% of your practice time in my opinion... but of course you can make exeptions and practice only scales for a day if you wish..
Scales are not really technical exercises, only to an extent... Getting the circle of fifths into your head, and remembering accidentals and the image of the scales is more important, and also their sound.
For technique play Bach - c minor prelude from WTC book 1, and be PEDANTIC, play it with perfect evenness, clarity, accuracy, high speed, comfortable handposition, and loundness occasionally, and why not musicality. Work with small details with metronome to get them to speed... I think this is excellent for finger technique.
One famous pianist transposed it to all tonalities and played it in all of them DAILY.

[Kassaa]

Why does everyone keep saying C-major is the most difficult scale... I agree the C-major arpeggio can be somewhat aquard, but hardly the most difficult. F sharp major is clearly worse...

F# major is a lot easier then c major. In C, you go from e to f with 3-1, with F#, you go from A# to b with 4-1, which is a lot easier. (in Dutch I can give a much more clear explanation)

[sznitzeln]

I meant the arpeggio... that is not so nice in F sharp major... you need to put thumb on black

Jacob

[barry]

The C Major scale is VERY difficult to lay evenly. Try to play without the fingers jerking backward & forwards , try to release all the fingers above the coming notes when the thumb has just been played
AND do NOT play both hands together.
It's not the notes but the evenness of paying a smooth controlled scale and keeping the momentum ay the top/bottom of the piano as you change direction.
Barry

[musicsdarkangel]

Anyway, Tad, to answer your question.......

I religiously believe in memorizing first.

To practice, I would start by memorizing the piece(s), and making sure that the old parts are in tact.  Of course, you should make sure that everything isn't sloppy as hell, but slips are fine.


A perfect practice session to me would be to start off with scales, arpeggios, scales in 3rds and 6ths.  Then a bit of what you consider HELPFUL excersizes (for me, select Liszt and Hannon excersizes).

After this, I would spend time memorizing and perfecting.  If you are done memorizing, then focus on small sections that lack musicality or technique, find out practice methods to help (rhythms, groupings, slow), and make them better.

Although there is no formula to practicing, remember that smart practice is key.  Don't noodle.

[jhon]

My daily practice (I practice the whole night - from sunset till midnight w/ dinner as the only short break) always follow this order:

1) Technique - warm-uo pieces such as scales and arpeggios and Czerny (I include here all studies/etudes REGARDLESS of what period they are from (e.g., Chopin and Liszt Etudes).  I DEVOTE 1/3 of my whole practice time for this!

2) Baroque - too much Bach, a little Handel, and some Clementi

3) Classical - mostly sonatas (Mozart, Beethoven), Schubert Impromptus and Moment Musicals

4) Romantic -
5) Modern

(you know these two already..)

6) Pop/jazz/new age/miscellany - "rest" piecese (for ending)