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Topic: Fast scale passages  (Read 3019 times)

Offline allthumbs

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Fast scale passages
on: April 21, 2005, 08:54:19 PM
Greetings

I am relatively new to taking formal piano lessons (in the last 7 years), but I have played the piano since I was a kid off and on. I came back to playing after a 20-year hiatus and in the course of starting lessons, I had to start practicing technique seriously for the first time in my life.

Let me tell you it was quite a challenge, even to play a C major scale at 88. I have made progress and can now do most scales (with the exception of a few of the minor ones) at a speed of 126-132 to the 16th note.

My problem is with some of the scale passages that appear once in a piece that I otherwise have under control except those one or two spots.

I'm thinking particularly of Chopin's Nocturne No.20 (posth.) in C sharp minor. There are four scale passages near the end of the piece with 18, 35, 11 & 13 notes to fit in with the 3rd & 4th beats in the bar. All are fine except (you guessed it) the 35 note passage.

I've thought of slowing down a little, I've practiced it slow, staccato, various rhythms, and thumb over. The problem is not so much hitting the right notes, it's the speed needed to keep the left hand going in time.

I seem to have hit a wall or more appropriately, a plateau of diminishing returns and can't speed this up. This goes to my technical exercises as well.

I'm approaching my mid 50's and am wondering, "Is this it as far as my speed development goes?"

The rest of the Nocturne is fine and I do want to keep it in my repertoire. I did drop it for a few years when my speed was slower than it is now.


Any suggestions?



Cheers ;D


PS - I did do a search, howerver the number of threads on related topics was too overwhelming.
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Offline IanT

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #1 on: April 21, 2005, 09:30:22 PM
Well, for this specific example (i.e. Chopin Nocturne) you should not be expecting the left hand to maintain strict time while the right hand is cramming in those 35 notes.  Chopin's music has to be flexible, and the nocturnes particularly so.  Allow yourself the time to play the notes lightly, evenly, beautifully, and gracefully.  Even if your left hand falls asleep from lack of stuff to do, the effect will still be better than the alternative!

As for playing scales and getting more speed - the process is mostly mental.  If you can think the notes at speed then you'll be able to play them at speed.

I recommend reading Chang's book if you haven't done so already.

Also, I've read some of your other posts about returning to the piano, doing an ARCT etc.  I went through a similar process and actually enjoyed it - even the theory.  Stay the course!

Ian

Offline bernhard

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #2 on: April 22, 2005, 12:35:35 AM
See if this helps:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom –  all about speed playing)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5756.msg56146.html#msg56146
(Talent – Attention to detail – example of scale in clusters and how the overlooked aim is to prepare fingers.)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – the important factors in speed playing and an alternative fingering for scales).


https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2076.msg17157.html#msg17157
(Speed – the3 most important factors)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2079.msg17335.html#msg17335
(Hand tension – not using fingers to play)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1808.msg23879.html#msg23879
(Ultra fast arpeggios – discussion on slow practice x slow motion practice – good post by Herve – Abby whiteside is also mentioned)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4282.msg39831.html#msg39831
(How to increase speed: slowly using metronome x fast with chord attack – analogy against slow practice using juggling and skiping rope as examples)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4144.msg40259.html#msg40259
(improving speed of LH – moving the whole LH not only fingers)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension)


Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #3 on: April 22, 2005, 03:19:22 AM
Greetings

Thanks Ian for your response. I'll try your suggestion and see if I can make it sound anywhere reasonable.

 I do have Chang's tome on PDF, I'll definately have a look as to what he has to say.



As for playing scales and getting more speed - the process is mostly mental. 


As for the above quote, I can relate as my family and friends already think I'm mostly mental!


Also, I've read some of your other posts about returning to the piano, doing an ARCT etc. I went through a similar process and actually enjoyed it - even the theory. Stay the course!

Ian


Thanks for your encouragement!

Cheers ;D



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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #4 on: April 22, 2005, 03:25:00 AM

Greetings Bernhard

Wow, what can I say, a treasure trove of sites to look at.

Thanks so much for taking the time to amass these!  I'll post how I made out in the future.

Cheers ;D
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #5 on: April 22, 2005, 04:05:39 AM


Greetings Bernhard

I just read the first four of your posts, you sent me. Wow, I wish I had seen these years ago. What a revelation, of course playing arpeggios or scale notes as chords are infinitely fast. I've been playing these infinitely fast for a long time.! I just need to practice slowing them down!!!

I have an entirely new strategy to try in regards to increasing my speed. No more slow practice to try to increase speed for me!

Thanks so much,

Cheers ;D

Kevin
Sauter Delta (185cm) polished ebony 'Lucy'
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Offline xvimbi

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #6 on: April 22, 2005, 11:54:09 AM
I have an entirely new strategy to try in regards to increasing my speed. No more slow practice to try to increase speed for me!

Well, not so fast (pun intended). Slow practice still has its place, but it must be slow-motion practice. This means that one should first work out fingerings and motions at the intended speed. That's very important, because fingerings and motions are often different at different speeds. Scales are a perfect example with thumb-under at slow speed and thumb-over at fast speed. Once fingering and motions have been worked out, you can go back to a slow speed and ramp it up over time. The idea behind slow-motion playing is that you can keep working on refining the motions (they will be exaggerated and better visible at slow speed), work on any tension or other discomfort issues and you can focus on accuracy and clarity. So, ideally, one would use both slow-motion and fast-motion practice. They both have their benefits.

Offline robert

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #7 on: April 22, 2005, 01:42:01 PM
allthumbs: Despite the huge amount of links that Bernard posted, I still feel that there are some information missing specifically for this nocturne.
I must have played this particular Nocturne well over 100 times (exluding when I once learnt it) and I have changed the version very much during the years. I have also changed my view how this last scale should be performed.

I believe that, despite that you are expected to keep a rather strict tempo with left hand in Chopin's music, you are allowed to slow down this particular bar and concentrate to perform it musically interesting rather than ultrafast. If you want to keep the tempo, 16:ths in 126-132 will not take you very far but you are rather expected a tempo in about b=200 or even more in 16:ths. Add to this that you should make a crescendo->diminuendo and play it in p or mp. Not an easy task.
I prefer a musically interesting passage of this scale than chocking fast performance.

Technically, it is an E-major scale and as you change direction at the top, you get some keys for free as you can roll them forwards and backwards. E-major is perhaps the easiest scale to perform really fast as it fits the shape of the hand well so the pre-conditions are good.

This Nocturne was found in a letter to Ludwika (Chopin's sister) as to practise before playing his 2:nd concerto. Says quite a bit of his sisters skills at the piano doesn't it? If you check the triols of left hand in the middle section and listen to his  2:nd concerto, you will find a very similar passage.
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #8 on: April 22, 2005, 06:15:13 PM
Greetings xvimbi


Well, not so fast (pun intended). Slow practice still has its place, but it must be slow-motion practice. This means that one should first work out fingerings and motions at the intended speed. That's very important, because fingerings and motions are often different at different speeds. Scales are a perfect example with thumb-under at slow speed and thumb-over at fast speed. Once fingering and motions have been worked out, you can go back to a slow speed and ramp it up over time. The idea behind slow-motion playing is that you can keep working on refining the motions (they will be exaggerated and better visible at slow speed), work on any tension or other discomfort issues and you can focus on accuracy and clarity. So, ideally, one would use both slow-motion and fast-motion practice. They both have their benefits.

I agree; thank you for your insight and response. I'll keep working on the problem.


Cheers ;D

PS - Good pun.
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #9 on: April 22, 2005, 06:33:45 PM
Greetings Robert


allthumbs: Despite the huge amount of links that Bernard posted, I still feel that there are some information missing specifically for this nocturne.
I must have played this particular Nocturne well over 100 times (exluding when I once learnt it) and I have changed the version very much during the years. I have also changed my view how this last scale should be performed.

I believe that, despite that you are expected to keep a rather strict tempo with left hand in Chopin's music, you are allowed to slow down this particular bar and concentrate to perform it musically interesting rather than ultrafast. If you want to keep the tempo, 16:ths in 126-132 will not take you very far but you are rather expected a tempo in about b=200 or even more in 16:ths. Add to this that you should make a crescendo->diminuendo and play it in p or mp. Not an easy task.
I prefer a musically interesting passage of this scale than chocking fast performance.

Technically, it is an E-major scale and as you change direction at the top, you get some keys for free as you can roll them forwards and backwards. E-major is perhaps the easiest scale to perform really fast as it fits the shape of the hand well so the pre-conditions are good.

This Nocturne was found in a letter to Ludwika (Chopin's sister) as to practise before playing his 2:nd concerto. Says quite a bit of his sisters skills at the piano doesn't it? If you check the triols of left hand in the middle section and listen to his  2:nd concerto, you will find a very similar passage.

Anther great post! Thanks for your comments. I never really took a close look at the fact that the scale was indeed E major, it always sounded to me like a modified G# harmonic minor scale, the notes are so similar. Interesting!

Onward and upward.

Cheers ;D

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Offline robert

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #10 on: April 22, 2005, 07:23:47 PM
I should have made it clear that I prefer look upon it as an E-major scale. It can of course also be a C-sharp minor or a F-sharp dorian scale  ;),
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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #11 on: April 22, 2005, 07:39:13 PM

Greetings

I should have made it clear that I prefer look upon it as an E-major scale. It can of course also be a C-sharp minor or a F-sharp dorian scale  ;),

I knew what you were getting at; it makes sense to look at it as E major for fingering.

Dorian mode? That's a term I hadn't heard for a long time! Now I'll have to go and look that up!

Thanks

Cheers ;D




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Offline allthumbs

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Re: Fast scale passages
Reply #12 on: April 24, 2005, 06:44:29 PM

Greetings Bernhard

Quote

Today I was teaching a student how to play a C major scale at top speed straightaway – that is without any need for years of practice – She was a beginner and we were just starting to learn scales. Here are the steps I used.

1.   We started by playing the scales in chords. Right hand: CDE (fingers 123) played together and FGAB (fingers 1234) played together. First aim: to get this pattern of notes and fingerings firmly ingrained and memorised. This involved repeating CDE several times, and then shifting the right hand all over the keyboard playing CDE as a chord. This is really a feat of visual co-ordination: you must identify visually the relevant keys and once your eye locks on it, your hand will always hit it right. So the training here is in visual recognition of the pattern and in “locking” the sight o the pattern you want to hit. Later on we will train to do this without resorting to sight. But for what I want to say here, it is not necessary to enter these details. Then we did the FGAB group and finally we played the C major scale all over the keyboard in clusters: CDE – FGAB – CDE – FGAB – etc.

2.   The next step was to break these clusters by “rolling the hand” rather then by finger movement. Again I will not spend much time explaining this here. It is easily demonstrated, and the student could do it with ease. At this stage, I pointed out to her, that she was already playing the two clusters at the scale at unbelievable speeds: infinite speed when plying the clusters (what can be faster then together?) and just a tiny bit slower then infinite speed when rolling the hand. The problem of course was moving the hand from E to F. That shift will always be the limit: you will only be able to play the scale as fast as you can shift the hand.

3.   Now comes the point of this somewhat lengthy explanation. I then proceeded to tell her that the way to practise this shift was to isolate it: Play the E with the 3rd finger, then displace the hand sideways so that the thumb plays the F. The aim is not only speed, but total accuracy.

4.   And now comes the fulcrum where this whole question hinges. She could move from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb) with great accuracy and speed. But her other fingers were all over the place. So I pointed this out to her, and demonstrated what her aim was: Not only he had to move fast and accurately from E (3rd finger) to F (thumb) – as her other fingers (234) should land exactly on top of GAB the moment her thumb arrived at F. That of course creates a whole universe of problems – including her resistance and revolt that she had this extra goal. As a good rebellious teenager, she was happy only in achieving the superficial aim of moving from E(3) to F(1), and was outraged that I would dare to suggest that she should add anything else to her work load. Nevertheless (being a black belt in five martial arts) I quickly convinced her to do as I was suggesting, and after a couple of minutes of mindful repetitions she could do it perfectly.

5.   Now the point here is this: Had I not paid attention to this sort of excruciating detail, she would have perhaps practised a whole week a perfect move from E to F, but a totally sloppy placement of the fingers that would be needed later on. At full speed, the scale would be a mess, because her fingers would be out of place, therefore either she would hit the wrong notes, or she would have to slow down to continually “reach for the keys” with the fingers and constantly readjust finger position. She would be practising a certain move, but she would be neglecting what I call preparation, that is a careful thought out strategy for the fingers to prepare for the next movements.

6.   So, anyone who is struggling with any passage/piece for months is doing something very wrong. And usually what is wrong is the “preparation” and the lack of attention to preparation. They hope that somehow if they just sit down at the piano for 10 hours a day improvement will somehow follow. It will not. In fact, if you are sloppy, that is all you will be practising: sloppy preparation with the obvious consequences. If you pay excruciating attention to details, after a couple of minutes of intensive concentrated and mindful practice, such details get ingrained into your subconscious and you do not need to think about them anymore. This is truly the secret of speed learning. But everyone wants to go on automatic pilot before they have acquired an automatic pilot!

7.   The only talent needed here is the talent for discipline. And believe me, this is no small talent.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


Unbelievable Bernhard:o :o :o :o , I sat at the piano for about 5-10 minutes using the steps you outlined above and the results blew me away. Starting with A in the run and playing the notes with 1234 123 1234 123 1234 fingering as chords up and down the scale, it didn't take long to see where the method you suggested was heading.

What an epiphany I had! The speed was there all along; I just had to look at the task at hand (pun intended) from a different perspective.

I thought the analogy from another of your posts about trying to learn how to run by starting off walking slowly then faster and faster in order to try to run, when the motions to achieve both these actions were totally different, was a perfect explanation as to what I had been doing on the piano up to this point.

Although, I still not there yet as far as playing evenly and with even tone, I'm well on my way. With the suggestions that Robert, xvimbi and IanT provided as well, the problem has found the solution.

Thanks so much


Cheers  ;D


Kevin


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