An attempt at the Goldberg Variations, progression of learning

[gouldfischer]

Oh, man... I just happened to read this... many decisions, that's true...

And now I found another "different thing" played by Gould.

Variation #3, second part (in D), RH, the first D# should be way longer. And it's simple to see why he halves the duration of that note. That's because he decided to trill on the B (played next by the echo) and then the fingering would be almost impossible, had he kept his finger 1 on the D# key (as he was supposed to)...

I still think Gould's 81 is by far the best GV recording among those I know, but still there are some things I would have played differently if I were him. (As I'm not him, I'm FORCED to play every single note much different, but this is not what I'm talking about... :-) )

I had never noticed this shortening of the D# until this morning when I started to put together the canon of Var 3's second part. I decided I would trill on the B just like Gould (because it's REALLY cool). Then I was a bit surprise that I could not find a suitable fingering. It seemed impossible. I went to hear Gould one more time... and then... surprise! he also found it impossible, it seems, haha.

As a matter of fact, it is possible to keep the 1 on the D#, trill on the B and then use a 3-5 descending on the RH. It is NOT comfortable, by any means, but I guess I'll practice this way, so that I trill on the B AND make justice to the D# duration.

Cheers,
    Vinicius.

What a novice... of course the 3-5 descending is terrible. The best fingering is
A(5)... B(4) C(5) A(2) B(3) C(4) B(3-4-3 trill) A(4) G(3) F#(2) E(1) D#(2) E(1)   (with D#(1) lasting from the first A until the G).

(Sorry to have posted twice in a row.)

[whynot]

This is really fun.  I rarely like to talk about the music I'm playing.  I'd rather just play it, you know?  But so much happens all the time in this piece that I really enjoy everyone's comments and experiences.  I have nothing profound to say, as usual.  Cheers, all. 

[gouldfischer]

OK, #3 is piece of cake now, I'm serious. :-)

After two weeks without attempting any progress (playing now and then, it's true, but I was mostly travelling on holidays during the two last December weeks), I came back to work and just started #4 seriously two days ago.

Man, it's terrific to play in four voices! Never done that before. And I like this variation so very much.

Well, the first part with both voices separate and hands separate is ok now. I started this morning to put the hands together. Do you guys have any tips for this particular vartiation?

Have a great 2006!

Cheers,
    Vinicius.

PS.: Btw, didn't you stop by to have a listening of the Aria, #1 and #2 I posted to the Audition Room some weeks ago? I'd appreciate your comments VERY much! :-)

[whynot]

Yes, I did listen to the posted movements a while back, and again today (because you brought it up).  As others have said, it is very impressive to have studied only a short amount of time and be playing this literature at all.  Did you play before that? working on your own, reading music, playing by ear? other instruments?  I'm very curious.  I want to know before I make any comments.  I know you have asked that people don't take into account your short time of study, but the short time of study is somewhat reflected in the playing-- that is not a criticism or put-down!  A person's stage of playing is one of the factors in his/her sound and performances.  You have done great work, and I'm really happy for the success you're having in your playing.  I just want a little more information before going further, if you're comfortable with that.  Very best to you! 

Should I be writing this in the audition room?  Answer wherever you think it's appropriate--I'll find you!

[gouldfischer]

Hi, whynot.

Thank you very much for your interest. I understand what you mean and I'll try to answer your doubts.

I learned to play the guitar when I was 12. My first contact with a piano was when I was 14 and I was at a hotel which had a piano in one of its rooms. I could find the notes in the keyboard and therefore I tried to translate to the piano some things I used to play in the guitar. Period.

In my teens, I sang in a choir and developed as a guitar player.

I was 22 when I decided I wanted to play the piano. Then I bought the Anna Magdalena notebook and started to learn how to play those pieces in my sister's eletronic keyboard. It was only when I was 24 that I bought myself a piano and started to have lessons with a neighborhood teacher. Four or five classes and I quit. Two years later, again I found myself a teacher and restarted the lessons. Again I quit.

In 2005 (I was 28), after I found the Goldberg Variations urtext in a book exposition, I decided I would definitely learn the thing and seriously started to study. This was seven months ago. That's it.

Looking forward to hearing your comments!

Cheers,
    Vinicius.

[whynot]

You seem like a real self-starter, and the other work you've done is probably helping you now.  Again, great job with everything.  My comments aren't really criticisms, but rather suggestions for taking the next step.

My general response is that the playing sounds inexperienced (understandably), although you are playing very sophisticated music and, in some ways, playing it quite well.  It has a lovely clarity, but the effort of playing correctly is perceptible and it makes the playing sound young and too careful.  I wouldn't even bring this up to anybody else, since this quality matures on its own over time, but I respect that you are very invested in your playing and serious about learning quickly.  Since you know your way around some of the variations so well, I think it’s a natural time to start experimenting with sound.  And I believe the way to experiment with sound is to first experiment with feeling, because our physical feeling and ease for the instrument is reflected in our sound.

I have a harmless hobby of taking up new instruments, and generally can get to a decent level of playing in a very short time.  I use an exercise or game that I think of as “pretended fluency.”  First, I sit down with the instrument and imagine I’m an expert at it.  I think, how would it feel to know how to do this deep in my bones, to have done it since I was born?  I imitate the postures and movements of people who are incredibly fluent and comfortable on the same instrument, but even more than that, I imitate MYSELF as I imagine I would feel if I were utterly fluent.  Then I improvise—not improvising a piece of music, but improvising how to play the instrument.  I choose some general character of music:  regal, lyrical, playful, stormy etc., then play nonsense in that character, and do it with authority.   Musically, it’s gibberish, but it's about discovering the feel of playing fluently, not composing a piece or having it make sense.  What I'm doing here is similar to “catching” the accent of a foreign language--I'm trying to catch the flavor of the instrument, and I can't stress this enough:  how it feels, not how it sounds.  The next thing I do is to play an easy piece, but play it as if I’m able to play ANYTHING on this instrument, I’m just choosing to play something easy.  That's it.  To re-cap:  1.  Sit and move fluently, imagine feeling completely at home on this instrument.  2.  Pretend-play some idea or feeling with conviction.  3.  Play a real piece that's very simple, but play it as an expert totally at ease.   
       
This works, and I think the reason it works is that it’s how we learn language.  We don’t learn words and grammar first; we learn them last (we start developing the idea of and capacity for grammar as babies, but it's one of the last steps we actually use).  The early talking of a toddler is strings of nonsense syllables with all the inflections and character of mature conversation.  They imitate the feeling and the idea of speaking long before they actually speak.  Conversely, when we learn a new language as adults, we learn words, grammar and devices/idioms first, and we carefully proceed, trying to speak as correctly as possible.  But then that’s how we sound, like we’re trying to speak as correctly as possible.  That’s what I hear in your playing right now, the correctness and caution.  But since you have so many technical things sorted out at this point, I think it would be worthwhile to forget about all that in some of your practicing, just play your fanny off, and see what happens.

Best to you!

 

[gouldfischer]

Hi, whynot! Thank you very much (once again) for your careful, detailed explanation.

Your assessment of my playing was accurate. I do feel that excessive preocupation to hit the correct notes, mainly when I am performing or recording. There are times, though, after I've been playing for some hours, or at least tens of minutes, when all at a sudden I feel all tension disappear and the sound gets more fluent and beautiful than ever. I already mentioned this once when I said that I sometimes catch myself *listening* to my own play (I mean, *while* I'm playing, not in any recording) and I think "how come that's me playing this way? It's good, isn't it?"

I'll try your suggestion of pretending I've played for decades and feel completely at home in front of the keyboard. :-) Actually, I have tried this once or twice. Good ideas often happen to many people independently!... but it's been some time... at that time I couldn't play anything but the Minuet in G, if I'm not mistaken... so, it was very good that you mentioned the trick. It'll probably help (your language analogy makes sense). And, after all... why not? :-)

I look forward to recording a fresh one, with Aria+1+2+3+4, and to hearing what you think about my overall progress since the former recordings I posted.

It won't be excessive to thank you once again, for your participation has been very, VERY instructive for me. And I am sincerely eager to learn, this I can assure you.

All the best to you too, my friend, and to everybody else here in the PianoStreet Forum.

Cheers,
    Vinicius.

[gouldfischer]

And... m1469! What about you? What've you been working on? Forgot about the GV? :-)

Following that plan?

January

9th : 
Rachmaninov : Prelude in B Major, Op 32 no 11

23rd :
Shostakovich : Prelude and Fugue in C Major, Op 87 no 1

Hope you're doing great!

Regards,
    Vinicius.

[letters]

personally i love the second to last variation - the one before the one before the aria again. dead easy when you get the hang of it.

[gouldfischer]

personally i love the second to last variation - the one before the one before the aria again. dead easy when you get the hang of it.

I also like it very much. Do you by any chance play other variations? We're kind of forming a Goldberg Variation Players Association here! :-)

And... welcome to the forum, Letters. I see you've joined recently, so... have fun!

Regards,
     Vinicius.

[m1469]

And... m1469! What about you? What've you been working on? Forgot about the GV? :-)

Following that plan?

January

9th : 
Rachmaninov : Prelude in B Major, Op 32 no 11

23rd :
Shostakovich : Prelude and Fugue in C Major, Op 87 no 1

Hope you're doing great!

Regards,
    Vinicius.

Oh man, didn't notice you brought this thread up.  Well, heh, needless to say, I am not fulfilling my schedule.  Let's just say, I am a wanderer at the moment, maybe a little lost.  Wondering if all hope will also be lost, or perhaps there never was any 


m1469

[gouldfischer]

Oh man, didn't notice you brought this thread up.  Well, heh, needless to say, I am not fulfilling my schedule.  Let's just say, I am a wanderer at the moment, maybe a little lost.  Wondering if all hope will also be lost, or perhaps there never was any 


m1469

I understand. So... why don't you just go now (not tomorrow, NOW) and start to learn the fifth variation? :-) I'm just about to start...

The very best to you,
      Vinícius.

[letters]

hi vinicius yeah i can play the aria, the first variation,the second to last one and then bits of some of the others. i havent been trying that hard though so with a bit more work i could probably play some others!

[gouldfischer]

Polishing the fifth, now. I guess it's the one I liked most, so far. (And the third, of course.)

Cheers,
    Vinicius.