Moonlight Sonata question.

[TR]

Hey everyone. I started playing the Moonlight Sonata 3rd movement just a couple of months ago, and while I was having some time off of it, I decided to sidetrack into the first movement (I always start with the last part of any piece, and in this case, this sonata. I think I should change my ways sooner or later).

I'm almost done with this particular movement without the pedal, but then I decided to practice it with the pedal. The editor indicates that throughout the piece, it must be "senza sordini," or pedaled throughout.

My question is, do they really, really mean it? Do I actually hold the pedal in throughout? Wouldn't it all sound a little bit messy?

Thanks in advance for your kind, kind advice.

[whynot]

Well, I'm curious now and want to look at my own editions, but it's the middle of the night so I'll check tomorrow if any of mine say that.  But senza means without (sempre is always) and I think sordini means whisper, or muted; on piano, I would take that to mean una corda pedal.  So I'm not sure what your marking is telling you to do exactly-- play without the left pedal? but anyway I don't believe it's a reference to the damper pedal.  I also have a Italian dictionary I should check, but again, middle of the night... by the way, I think it's impressive that you started the piece on the third movement!  If someone hasn't cleared this up by morning, I'll check all my sources.  Good luck!       

[TheHammer]

No, it is as TR said: sordino = damper; senza sordino = without damper = with damper pedal
In my edition it says the following: Si deve suonare tutto questo pezzo delicatissimamente e senza sordino. (This whole piece must be played very delicately and with (damper) pedal.) (Henle)

On the other hand: pedal issues always depend on the instrument you are playing on, the room and of course your interpretation ( that means, someone playing this really really slow and pp could perhaps get away with it on the right piano. Play it rather fast - say andante, not adagio- and mp and by bar 4 you will be unable to hear anything).
You should make all your decisions based on the actual sound you produce. If you think this movement sounds messy with the pedal throughout the piece, well, just don't play it this way. Also, bear in mind, that this note is perhaps not an editorial one but from Beethoven himself (anyone know this?). This would mean it apllies only to pianos from 200 years ago! I imagine in that time the piece would be quite effective without the dampers, but nowadays it would just sound like a total mess after some measures. Still you need to make it sound "connected" throughout the piece, no break-ups in between.
Hmm, that is really a question everyone has to decide for himself while sitting at the actual piano, not by reading a small note on the score.

[xvimbi]

The editor indicates that throughout the piece, it must be "senza sordini," or pedaled throughout.

My question is, do they really, really mean it? Do I actually hold the pedal in throughout? Wouldn't it all sound a little bit messy?

"Pedal throughout" does not mean you press the pedal down at the beginning and don't release it until the end. Could that be the confusion? It means you should use the pedal where appropriate, following the typical "rules" and your own inspiration when to use it.

[TheHammer]

Okay, have done a bit of a research, and found that the marking is indeed from Beethoven. So I would disagree with xvimbi: "tutto questo pezzo senza sordino" seems quite clear to me, without damper means without dampers, for the entire 1st movement. But, having the mentioned changes of our instrument in mind, he is of course right: use the pedal where appropriate (for you). I think "half-pedalling" is the way to fulfill Beethovens intent and to avoid too much dissonance.

[TR]

Yes xvimbi, that was the confusion. But, though you say that using the pedal in this particular piece should be on based on appropriate instances rather than discretion (which, after sending a friend's teacher a text message, I found to be accurate), I found that pedalling the piece all throughout gives a more pleasing connected sound, since, the piece being in adagio, lifting the pedal is more obvious than usual.

TheHammer, I tried playing the whole piece senza sordino in almost perfect adagio and pp, and it sounded overwhelmingly beautiful. I worry about whether a professional pianist would find it rather appalling that I actually did play the whole piece with a foot on the damper, but, I think I might be able to pull it off this way.

Thanks for all of your help. Any more opinions on this would be appreciated.

[xvimbi]

Yes xvimbi, that was the confusion. But, though you say that using the pedal in this particular piece should be on based on appropriate instances rather than discretion (which, after sending a friend's teacher a text message, I found to be accurate), I found that pedalling the piece all throughout gives a more pleasing connected sound, since, the piece being in adagio, lifting the pedal is more obvious than usual.

TheHammer, I tried playing the whole piece senza sordino in almost perfect adagio and pp, and it sounded overwhelmingly beautiful. I worry about whether a professional pianist would find it rather appalling that I actually did play the whole piece with a foot on the damper, but, I think I might be able to pull it off this way.

Well, great! Leave it at that. As TheHammer said, Beethoven's piano was quite different, so what made sense to him, may not make sense on a modern, large instrument. When the sound builds up too much, one has to wipe it clean by repedaling. If you can pull it off your way, by all means, go for it. I don't think any "professional" pianist would object, unless there are indeed dissonances building up or the sound is getting too powerful for the spirit of the piece. You may find that you need to pedal differently on a large Steinway Model D compared to a small Boesendorfer or depending on the room/hall you are playing in, so it might be a good exercise to experiment with different pianos/settings. You can also try keeping both una corda and damper pedals down all the time. Anything goes.

[bernhard]

Every one is right.

Whynot is right. Senza sordina means without the mutes.

The “mutes” of course, refer to the dampers, so TheHammer is also right. 

Now have a look at the quote below (from Timothy Jones: “Beethoven: The Moonlight and other Sonatas op. 27 and op. 31” – Cambridge – An unmissable book if you want to play these works)

The most comprehensive early 19th century source of information about performing Beethoven’s sonatas is Czerny’s essay “Uber den richtigen Vortrag der samtlichen Beetoven’schen Sonaten fur das piano allein” (1842). As a pupil of the composer, Czerny had been in the rare position of being able to observe Beethoven’s performances of his own works and to take his advice on of performance. He studied the D minor sonata with the composer, and it has been suggested (from the evidence of the essay) that he must also have worked on the C# minor Sonata with him. Moreover, other pianists who knew Beethoven’s playing commented on the reliability of Czerny’s advice regarding suitable tempi for Beethoven’s music. Thus Czerny’s comments are of special interest in that they appear to represent the nearest thing we have to an authentic source of detailed information on performing the sonatas.

[…]

The following paragraphs summarise his comments on the op. 27 sonatas.

[…]

Pedalling: Czerny reinterprets and supplements Beethoven’s meagre pedalling marks. He takes the famous “senza sordino” instruction at the top of the C# minor Sonata to indicate that the pedal should be used constantly, but changed with each change of harmony. In the sonata’s finale he recommends that it should be changed every half-bar in bars 55 – 56 (and at the parallel place in the recapitulation), and that in the movement’s closing bars the dampers should be raised throughout.

And how about this?

Berlioz contrasted two other performances of the C# minor sonata in the early 1830’s. At the first of these Liszt disfigured the Adagio Sostenuto in a manner “designed to win applause from the fashionable public”: he added liberal accelerandi and ritardandi, trills and tremolos, which Berlioz likened to the “rumbling of thunder in a cloudless sky, where darkness is caused only by the setting of the sun”. A few years later Berlioz heard him play the same movement in darkness before a select gathering of people at the house of Ernest Legouve. On this occasion, “the noble elegy… emerged in its sublime simplicity; not a single note, not a single accent was added to the composer’s accents and notes. It was the ghost of Beethoven, evoked by the virtuoso, whose great voice we heard.” According to Kastner, Liszt later regretted the liberties he had taken with Beethoven’s music during his youth and after his regular recital tours ended he seems to have inclined towards greater textual fidelity.

Hence, xvimbi is also right!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Siberian Husky]

i just finished this piece (still just polishing it up)...and my piano teacher said that pedaling this piece is probably one of the most important element..holding the pedal down throughout the piece..or even every measure will give you ugly overtones...

my teacher didnt specifically tell me when to pedal (the pdal marks on  arent on my score)..but rather she put me to work and simply told me to recognize block chords, use my ear, and analyze and break down the fundamentals of the piece..so i did..i too was under the impression tha pedaling every measure was the correct way to do it...but..i guess my only piece of advice is...this piece isnt as easy and it comes off to be...it takes real delicacy and a keen ear to fully do it justice....yeaup..pokemon cards

-Luis

[xvimbi]

i just finished this piece (still just polishing it up)...and my piano teacher said that pedaling this piece is probably one of the most important element..holding the pedal down throughout the piece..or even every measure will give you ugly overtones...

Here is one more about how to approach this movement (from Howard Ferguson, Style and Interpretation, Vol. 3 - Classical Piano Music; Oxford University Press):

"... Before the movement is begun, all the notes on the keyboard below the bottom E sharp (the lowest note in the piece) are depressed silently and 'caught' by the middle pedal, which is kept down by the left foot throughout the movement. The right pedal is then used in the normal way, and changed as the harmony dictates. This allows the undamped lowest strings to act as sympathetic resonators, so that they vibrate continuously and produce a faint but perceptible haze of sound from beginning to end, through which the cantabile of the right hand can sound, as Beethoven himself put it, 'like a voice from a vault'...

There you go!

[sonatainfsharp]

Beethoven didn't have a sostenuto (middle) pedal.

Have you heard a replica of Beethoven's piano? You most certiainly could hold the damper pedal down the ENTIRE time without lifting it without having to worry about offensive overlap (even a Chopin replica piano sounds like this).

You have to adjust your interpretation to the instrument you are using.