Playing the whites up between the blacks

[peterson]

Hello
Hope someone can advice me on this one:
I'm currently working on Tjaikowsky's opus 39 (album for the young) #12 "Farmer playing the Accordion". Already in bar 2 there is a "4-finger-chord" (don't know the English expression for this) which causes me trouble.  Fingers 1-2-4-5 are supposed to be put on F-A-C and Eb. In order to make my pinky (the right hand causes the worst trouble) reach the Eb, I have to put the other 3 fingers up between the blacks. But the surrounding black keys are merrily jumping up and down as well as the white ones, particularly Ab and Db, and it sounds terribly of course.
Now, I'm a big man - been playing for 20 months - with big hands and thick fingers. What can I do?
There is simply not room for my fingers between the blacks - in my opinion. My teacher (nice young man about half my age) says that I must practice putting one finger at a time, and over time it'll get better. I've done that now for weeks and it doesn't help. If I slowly put down one finger at a time I can manage to make it work, but as soon as i try to play the melody, the wrong black keys are "activated" as well. Any suggestions?
Even if I try to play the whites below the blacks the 4. finger has to be placed a little up on C and will hit the corner of Db.
I can (at least with less trouble) play "3-finger-chords" between the blacks in other melodies, but as soon as the fourth finger comes into the picture...
Jan
 

[xvimbi]

Although I don't have any personal experience with this issue, I'd like to say two things:

1. There are quite a few well-known pianists who have overcome this issue. So, your teacher is right: it will get better with time as you go along and acquire and refine your technique

2. I would like to encourage you to play between the black keys. Most beginners make the mistake that they try to play exclusively in the white area of the keys whenever possible. In most cases, this leads to awkward and unnatural finger positions that may not only result in injuries, but will also inhibit smooth playing. It is much better to retain the natural, relaxed, slightly curved shape of the fingers during playing and move the hand in and out of the keyboard to place the fingers where they need to be without having to curl or stretch the fingers or bend the wrist or anything else into unnatural angles. Students should be encouraged to play between the black keys from the beginning.

So, taking your four-note chord in the right hand as an example, have your hand in its natural position and place it onto the keys, so that the fingers fall naturally onto F-A-C-Eb or close to them. Move the hand as a whole into the keyboard until the thumb (which is the shortest finger) is well on the C. Then make small adjustments to the angle of forearm, wrist and the fingers to really place your fingers correctly on the keys. Try to find the arrangement for your forearm, wrist and hand as a whole that will result in the minimum amount of deviation from the natural, middle position of all joints involved. This is the position you need to be striving for. Now, play the chord. If you find yourself depressing black notes on the sides, because of your thick fingers, then so be it. I would prefer this any time over adopting bad postures and acquiring bad technique. So, you will have the occasional additional note, but it will get better over time, as you will learn about the adjustments necessary to avoid depressing black keys. Start working on it now, otherwise you will always have this issue.

And remember: have fun! 

[sznitzeln]

Someone (I think Hofman) wrote that you should completely avoid the area between the blacks. Even our celebrated pianists say some funny stuff...
Anton Rubinstein had a lot of trouble with this... but he overcame it.
See if your fingers fit in between when you do only 1 finger, and really slowly and controlled. If it fits, then you can learn to do it faster. But if it really physically doesnt fit... then perhaps you should make the black keys thiner lol
I think your fingers will fit... Claudio Arrau also had chubby fingers.
To give you some good news: Josef Lhevinne writes that the quality of tone is in direct proportion to the area of the finger tips. I dont remember if he quoted Anton Rubinstein saying this. Its a well known quote, but I dont know if its really true.

[CC]

One thing you might try is to practice snuggling the fingers well into the space between black keys and touching the white keys BEFORE playing them.  If you practice "feeling" the white keys before playing them, you will be surprised at how fast you can do this.  In this way, you can very accurately place your fingers so as to minimize touching the black keys.  Eventually, you will be able to do this so quickly that nobody will be able to see this extra step.

[peterson]

Thanks everybody!

xvimbi: Do you mean always play the white keys between the blacks? I would have thought when nescessary. Example: A well known piece, "Moonlight" first mov., bar 16-18. I've never dreamt of the possibility of playing that passage up between the blacks. Are you sure? The sister-passage bar 52-54 I play the right hand up between the blacks but my left hand I move down as soon as I can on the A-A octave third note bar 52. Is that wrong?
By the way: This passage is a good example of advantages with big hands. It's relatively easy for me to grab 9 keys. When I compare my teachers hands with mine I can see that I can (potentially) grab 10 keys as easy as he can take 9.

sznitzeln: Though I have only limited experience, it seems to me to be impossible to completely avoid the area between the blacks. But it makes me optimistic to learn that with big hands come big music.

CC: I'll try that.

Jan

[xvimbi]

xvimbi: Do you mean always play the white keys between the blacks? I would have thought when nescessary. Example: A well known piece, "Moonlight" first mov., bar 16-18. I've never dreamt of the possibility of playing that passage up between the blacks. Are you sure? The sister-passage bar 52-54 I play the right hand up between the blacks but my left hand I move down as soon as I can on the A-A octave third note bar 52. Is that wrong?
By the way: This passage is a good example of advantages with big hands. It's relatively easy for me to grab 9 keys. When I compare my teachers hands with mine I can see that I can (potentially) grab 10 keys as easy as he can take 9.

Yes, you are right, I mean 'when necessary'. The question is what does 'necessary' mean? What I mean is that you should preserve the natural shape of the hand (slightly curved fingers) as much as possible. If you can play entirely in the white area while preserving that shape, great. However, if you need to play with the thumb, this invariably means you need to move the hand into the keyboard, which will most likely place some or all of the remaining fingers between the black keys. This is the correct way. Don't try to excessively angle your wrist or curl your fingers to avoid playing between the black keys.

I don't see how you can avoid the black area in measure 16 of the Moonlight (I hope we are talking about the same measure). Your thumb will be on the B, your pinky on the C. Preserving the natural hand position will already place your pinky right next to the C# in the black area (there is no black key to the left, of course.) Finger 2 will be right next to the D# in the black area (assuming you are playing the E with finger 2; likewise, there is no black key to the right of this one.) This most likely also means you need to play the G between the black keys. It would be tempting to curl the fingers to avoid the black keys. Instead, put your hand down, in its natural shape, on the keys as if you would play the four-note chord B-E-G-C. Wiggle the appropriate finger into place on the G between the black keys. First, play that chord to get a feel for it, then play the notes in the right order. This will be easier if you make slight adjustments as you go through your arpeggios. This is the extreme of what CC recommended. The initial placing of the fingertips on the keys is the "key" to success, so to say. That is a general rule. You can extend it in the following way: when working out the fingering in a piece, divide the notes into "hand positions", such that you play a maximum number of notes with a minimum number of hand positions. Good editors do this. This is very efficient, avoids a lot of hand movements and thus minimizes the risk of hitting wrong notes (among other things).

Hope that helps.

[peterson]

Well, as a matter of fact I have avoided the black area in this case (bar 16+) so far. I tried your suggestion, and I think I can see the reason why: If I move the hand up in the black area the thumb on the B will also press the C right next to it, so in order not to do that I've actually pulled my hand as far away as I could, thus playing the B out on the edge of the key.
Anyway, we'll se what time will bring. A lot of practice will be nescessary to get more familiar with the black area.
Thanks
Jan

[xvimbi]

If I move the hand up in the black area the thumb on the B will also press the C right next to it, so in order not to do that I've actually pulled my hand as far away as I could, thus playing the B out on the edge of the key.

Because you have big hands, I assumed it would not be a problem for you to comfortably reach the 9th. Perhaps, I was wrong. It's also a lot harder when one has to play notes in between. So, instead of approaching this section as a chord, simply play the 9th, then immediately relax the hand, find your way to the E and G (in the black area) and play those. Of course, you might then not be that well prepared to play these notes and might involuntarily hit a black note too. So, it might be better to practice the above outlined idea on something else first until you get the hang of it. This should allow you to tackle your "problem" in the long run.