Sharps Flats Key Signature Theory Explanation Please

[techlogik]

Ok.  I have been playing for 9 months about.  I am 37yrs old.  I played drums, bells etc when I was younger, but nothing for 20 years...oh yes you regret things when you get older...wish I was forced to sit in front of a piano when I was 12.  Anyway...water under the bridge, now to the question.

Why in the Key signatures are some notes referred to as Flats or Sharps?

I mean, why in the F Major Scale, the B if Flat?!?!  If we go up the scale, isn't that an A Sharp?!  Sure going down it's a flat.  Yes, cue the line from the Live song Lighting Crashes "The confusion sets in..."

Or in G, the F is Sharp?!?!

I want to understand the music theory, being an edumicated kind of guy and wanting to know as much info as possible.  I play only classical at this point.

This one baffles me and I have never found a good explanation or at least my teacher never gave me one even though I asked.

Thank you, great web resource for info.

[xvimbi]

In any scale, you can have the notes A-B-C-D-E-F-G, modified by sharps or flats if necessary, only once, and you must have each one. Let's take G major: G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. The F (scale degree 7) needs to be sharped. You can't "call" this note 'Gb', because the G is already taken (scale degree 1). It is enharmonic (i.e., sounds identical.), but you just don't call it a 'Gb'. The direction of the scale (going up or down) has no effect on flats or sharps. The note names for the different scale degrees must be the same, no matter what the direction' in order to avoid confusion.

There is probably a more theoretical explanation, but this one should work (although, it seems, my theory is somewhat lacking lately...)

[abell88]

An excellent response, xvimbi, just what I was going to say!

[c18cont]

Lets do scale form....

In STEPS....<whole,whole,half,whole,whole,whole,half>......that is the form of your major scale, and there is no other, so start on ANY note...(How about B?) B,C, but it has to be whole so sharp that C..to C#...next is D, but again we need a whole, so again sharp it and get D#...etc...B,C#,D#,E,F#,G#,A#, and back to B...

For minor, in it's different forms, it is different...and for the modes, wholetone, twelve tone etc it requires a bit more study.

Actually there are really great sites on the web....just put "music theory" in your server to get more than you can handle...

John Cont

[c18cont]

Hey,

I just thought of a great site for ANYBODY, and of REAL interest to pianists, as it covers the MOST simple to the MOST difficult material in a visual format that is fun...You can SEE in front of you the notation and the keys on the piano, even for the really "wild" (for instance), jazz scales and chords....Would have mentioned earlier, but couldn't think of the name of it....

Cant remember the address, but put in your server:  "virtual piano chords"...You will really enjoy it..

John Cont

[eins]

That's an awesome site. Can I get it to play the cords or scales on my speakers too? I can't find the button.

[c18cont]

You Know,

Never tried...don't think it is audio sensitive,...BUT I have the old Korg keyboard turned on, and simply dup. the chords..that way I can hear them...

John Cont

[eins]

Im un-Korged but I remember when I went to this college class, they had small keyboards for practicing. Very simple, probably $30 a piece. What are they called, I was trying to find one on ebay.

[techlogik]

In any scale, you can have the notes A-B-C-D-E-F-G, modified by sharps or flats if necessary, only once, and you must have each one. Let's take G major: G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. The F (scale degree 7) needs to be sharped. You can't "call" this note 'Gb', because the G is already taken (scale degree 1). It is enharmonic (i.e., sounds identical.), but you just don't call it a 'Gb'. The direction of the scale (going up or down) has no effect on flats or sharps. The note names for the different scale degrees must be the same, no matter what the direction' in order to avoid confusion.

There is probably a more theoretical explanation, but this one should work (although, it seems, my theory is somewhat lacking lately...)

Ohhh...ding, light bulb came on.  In your example, since G is already taken, you have to use all the notes just once, F, in this case, since it follows our formula and is sharp, we call it F#.

Ok.  I will run through some scales.  That site is good to visualize this.  Ok, the D Major Scale, F# and C#, because D and G are used already as naturals...so you can't have Db Gb....I get it now...wow, that was much easier than I thought...

C18Cont, I believe this is the site https://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.html you speak of.

Thanks for you responses...you learn so much everyday.  Now if only I could play better.

[c18cont]

Thanks, Tech....

Its in my bookmks, so I never remember...Good spot to check chord structure, as you can invert them easily...

John Cont

[Fugue]

I hope I'm not repeating anything, or just spouting nonsense, but here I go.

The reason that the bflat is written as a bflat, rather than an a-sharp, is that all seven notes (meaning a through g, ignoring sharps, flats, naturals, ect.) must be represented to make each scale compatable with each other, as in that modulations and harmonic progressions can be systemized in a coherant fashion. If bflat is written as a-sharp, then c must be written as b-sharp, then c as d-doubleflat, then d as e-doubleflat. Then e is written as f-flat, which means that there is 8 different note types in the scale, when there should be only 7. It seems kind of strange, but keeping bflat the same makes notation consistant and easy to read.

[Fugue]

oh, nevermind, I was repeating.

[claudio]

i believe it is somewhat dangerous to say that a sharpened F needs to be spelled F# rather than Gb as G is already occupied in the G major scale.

just because pianos are limited in their mechanical design and a well-tempered
tuning allows for enharmonics, F# and Gb are not the same. at least my friends who
play violins, etc. tell me that they can hear the differences.

i think it is worthwhile for a beginner to follow C18Cont's lead to look for music
theory websites (or books) and do some study on scale structure.

[xvimbi]

i believe it is somewhat dangerous to say that a sharpened F needs to be spelled F# rather than Gb as G is already occupied in the G major scale.

just because pianos are limited in their mechanical design and a well-tempered
tuning allows for enharmonics, F# and Gb are not the same. at least my friends who
play violins, etc. tell me that they can hear the differences.

i think it is worthwhile for a beginner to follow C18Cont's lead to look for music
theory websites (or books) and do some study on scale structure.

If F# and Gb are enharmonic then they have the same pitch by definition. If there is a difference in pitch produced by a certain instrument, then they are no longer enharmonic and must be written so that it is clear which pitch is meant.

[timothy42b]

If F# and Gb are enharmonic then they have the same pitch by definition. If there is a difference in pitch produced by a certain instrument, then they are no longer enharmonic and must be written so that it is clear which pitch is meant.

This sounds logical.  However, instruments that can adjust (violins, trombones, etc. are the obvious ones, but most wind instruments can vary pitch a bit with air speed or lip tension)  will be expected to.  In something fast you don't do this, but in a slow chorale you will fit your pitch in to the chord, and mostly it will not be an equal tempered chord. 

It probably doesn't matter much how it is notated.  Good musicians will use their ears and do it.  The adjusted pitch is what is intended.  There is no good way to notate these small differences. 

[goose]

I like the chord/scale 'virtual piano' which also showed up at https://www.apassion4jazz.net/keys.html, which seems to be a decent little site.

It's too bad the chords are only given in root positions or inversions, rather than the kind of voicings a jazz pianist would actually use. The scales part is useful, though.