REAL legato

[frederic]

I think (and most pianists too) that we pianists should not rely on the pedal; using it like a walking stick. I think far too many pianists are too lazy to produce a legato sound with just their fingers. They just put their foot down and thats it! How easy. I think this is wrong.
So what is legato? Its simply joining two notes, so, there is slight moment where the two notes are together.
Of course, the piano is not a legato instrument, well, it is hard to play legato as how easily the violin can. So i believe we can't use the pedal to do all the work. The pedal is reserved for adding a color, accent, or where there is a really desperate place where its nearly impossible to make it sound legato. But thats it. Not for making us lazy pianists.
I really think practicing without the pedal is very important. To MAKE you use your fingers to join. Also in this way, you will find all those mistakes you are making which you didn't know before because of the pedal. Pedal also makes us feel alot more comfortable. To hide those things we don't want others to hear. But we should be comfortable even without the use of pedal.
Horowitz was a legend at avoiding the pedal. He can go for pages without touching the pedal. He didn't need it. It was in his fingers.
( Although it is interesting to note that he has been critized for having a rather dry playing. I agree sometimes it is. What do you think?)

Anyway, I like to see what you think.

[rachfan]

Hi Frederic,

I agree with you 100%.  Whenever I practice, I hardly use the pedal at all.  Rather, the fingers do all the work including legato phrasing.  Once, I have the piece where I want it to be and am ready to play rather than practice it during that session, only then do I add the pedal.  And as I do so, my ear is on high alert to make sure that all pedaling is appropriate and clean.  You are correct--the pedal cannot be a crutch for producing the legato touch anymore than we can expect the soft pedal to be the automatic panacea for controling soft dynamics.  It is the pianist who must perform the piece, not the instrument (unless it's a player piano!).  The pedals are only auxiliary tools that supplement the touch, tone, shading, nuance, and intent of the pianist.

[amee]

This reminds me of an interview I once read.  THe pianist (who's name eludes me) was asked what he thought of using the pedal while playing Bach.  In his opinion it was fine, but first you had to be able to play the piece to the same effect WITHOUT the pedal and just using your fingers.  He said something along the lines of, "too many pianists these days use the pedal like the gas pedal of a car; their foot is always jammed to the floor.  The pedal should be used to make something even more beautiful, not as polish to cover up the cracks in the actual playing."

I think the pianist who was interviewed was Andras Schiff, I'm not too sure.

[frederic]

This, amee, also reminds me of what the great conductor George Szell once said. He said if you can't play a Bach Prelude and Fugue without the pedal, you can forget about being a concert pianist.

[chopinetta]

yes, I agree with the Bach. Bach concerns a lot of phrasing. The tied note needs to sound until it is supposed to sound without the help of the pedal.

I went to master classes and pianist Jonathan Aner was there. He said you can add a bit of pedal on certain things you can't play beautifully enough. True, the pedal does add so much color.

He asked one of us to play a Mozart Sonata, so one of the guys played a Mozart Sonata the way it should be. Then Jonathan sat on the piano and played the same thing with the pedal. There was really a big difference. The texture was smoother.

And about the lazy pianist thing, it is just like getting comfortable to what is comfortable to you. For example you need to trill your 5th and 4th fingers on a piece but you could do it with your 3rd and 2nd. I think that's ok, to change it a bit. Because, the 3rd and 4th fingers are "siamese" twins and a lot of pianists force them to be independent but to no avail.

But i do think that you shouldn't apply the pedal to hide what you don't want other people to hear. The pedal is probably just misunderstood. You shouldn't apply the pedaling before you perfect the piece without it.

[JTownley]

Chopinetta & Amee make good points: many people forget that the damper has varying degrees of application just like an accelerator pedal in a car. As the car gets faster the farther down the pedal is pushed, the muddier playing gets when the damper is jambed down until it goes through the floor and into the guy's apartment below. Golden rule I've aways tried to follow: proper fingering RULES!!! If you have good fingering, technically you don't even need the damper (except in extreme cases) Take scales: for optimum smoothness, the preceeding note should still be depressed while the next note is played and then it should be released after half the duration of the  following note. It's difficult to explain. I'll be demonstrating this principle when I do the tape on good scale habits.
Joe

[chopinetta]

you're doing another video??!!??

that'll help me a lot!!!

[JTownley]

Yes, Chopinetta, I'm doing a video where I'll be demonstrating a new method of fingering for scales that make them much smoother to play. PREVIEW: look at the fingering for the B Major scale. Notice how in this scale you must start w/ your 4th finger in the L.H. Notice also how when you get to E it's played with both thumbs simultaneously. I just transfer this principle to all the scales so the thumbs ALWAYS play together. It makes for much faster and smoother scales when practiced in lots of variations which I'll demonstrate.  
See ya,   Joe
https://www.JoeTownley.com     Lots of videos

[chopinetta]

i'll be waiting for it like mad!

[jmanpno]

I think the warning piano street made was kinda funny.  This is an important issue we need ot address as much in 2011 as in 2003.  The piano's legato is essentially one of smoke and mirrors.  Of suggestion and illusion... No reason to assume the fingers can do it alone.  Hardly! Its about sound.  The pedal is where it's at.

[scott13]

For those who believe in legato fingering, I challenge you to play Chopin op 10 #1, with no pedal, and make it legato at the marked tempo. This should destroy any notion of legato fingering being possible.

When you realize this is impossible, perhaps you will understand that the pedal is a vital tool the pianist has, and should be used as much as it is needed. Sometimes, especially in Brahms, I pedal not due to lack of legato technique, but simply I love the warmth and beautiful sound that can emerge when the pedal is used.

Also keep in mind, the thing that really matters is the sound that is produced, not how it is produced. This is where pedaling becomes a matter or personal tastes. I'm all against the holding of the pedal by amateurs, but for professionals, to so blindly declare that the pedal should only be used in extreme cases is ridiculous. Look at how frequently Chopin notated pedal indications, when technically speaking, the passage could be played with legato fingering. More often than not, he notates the pedal for the timbre of the sound it produces, not the mere fact he wants a phrase legato.

The bottom line for me personally is, the pedals are there, so why not use them? If I wanted to play Bach as it is written, then I would play it on Harpsichord. Simple.

[nyiregyhazi]

For those who believe in legato fingering, I challenge you to play Chopin op 10 #1, with no pedal, and make it legato at the marked tempo. This should destroy any notion of legato fingering being possible.

So an extreme speed destroys the notion that physical legato could have an effect at all? This example implies that we should abandon the concept of physical legato? I really don't think so. For a start there are differing degrees. The kind of articulation Ashkenazy has when avoiding the pedal in that Etude might not be "legato" compared to what might be expected in a lyrical slow movement, but it's certainly not massively non-legato either.

And why did Chopin write "legato", considering that he already indicated a constant pedal? Clearly he meant something- especially seeing as he didn't mark all other pedalled etudes legato.

Far more sensible to take the opposite extreme and challenge you to play op. 10 no. 6 with no two notes being physically connected and make it sound legato.This should destroy any notion of destroying any notion of legato fingering being possible. Even if the physical act of connection does not necessarily influence the sound, it certainly influences control over it. In fact, we might equally go back to your style of example and ask for a performance of op. 10 no. 2 with no physical legato yet control over the tone.

[ajspiano]

Can we not find a balance..  in that physical legato absolutely should be performed when possible, but that there are occasions in advanced repertoire that make it exceedingly difficult to perform without placing the fingers under extreme stress..  I'd rather play legato with pedal in the places necessary and avoid the stress - since the other option can far to easily lead to injury, and I like playing more than I like not playing because it hurts.

The point is valid, if comfortable physical legato can be achieved then that's how it should be played. But you should not be placing stress on yourself in order to achieve something that can be done easily with well thought out use of the pedal.

[nyiregyhazi]

Can we not find a balance..  in that physical legato absolutely should be performed when possible, but that there are occasions in advanced repertoire that make it exceedingly difficult to perform without placing the fingers under extreme stress..  I'd rather play legato with pedal in the places necessary and avoid the stress - since the other option can far to easily lead to injury, and I like playing more than I like not playing because it hurts.

The point is valid, if comfortable physical legato can be achieved then that's how it should be played.

While I agree with your sentiments generally, I wouldn't agree with the last statement. There are often places where using the pedal and doing non-legato with the fingers makes for a specific quality of sound that has value- not because physical legato would be uncomfortable. It's just when people think that these things don't matter or get reflected in the sound that there's an issue. Physical legato would certain be the general tendency, but I wouldn't say comfort is the only reason to depart from it. Volodos is one pianist who frequently departs from physical legato in a simple melody, while using the pedal to maintain legato sound.

[ajspiano]

While I agree with your sentiments generally, I wouldn't agree with the last statement.

well I agree with you..   My point was aimed at times when the sound quality desired is that of physical legato. By contrast to the idea of using the pedal to cover up the lack of a comfortable physical legato that the pianist is unable to produce through lack of know how or practice.

And, that you have to be openly aware that its not always possible to play that way and you shouldnt go banging you head against a brick wall trying to achieve it when it causes a physical stress.