SheetMusicArchive site appropriateness? (Bernhard, please advise if possible)

[illusion]

Just wanted to ask whether the music from sheetmusicarchive.net was appropriate for late beginner/early intermediate level students, with regards to the fingering?  I'm not sure of the 'theory' behind fingering, and so rely greatly on the markings in order to progress in general.

I'm considering ordering the CD which has most of the files, but, upon reading through various messages here, I noted a message from Bernhard (and one or two others), suggesting to take the finger markings with a "pinch of salt".

(Source: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8451.msg85690.html#msg85690 )

As the majority of scores are pre-1923, I'm just concerned that it may be pointless to use these particular editions to progress, if the fingering is 'incorrect'.

Could you let me know if it's ok, or should I search elsewhere for post-mid1900s editions, which may hold more appropriate finger markings?

Clueless (ignorance ain't always bliss) 

[dorfmouse]

I can't say if these sheets specifically are any better/worse as regards fingering in particular. I think that whatever edition you use, no matter how "prestigious", you have to work out a fingering for your individual hand, that will enable you to bring out the musicality of the piece in terms of phrasing, legato/staccato requirements and speed, and to play in the most comfortable relaxed way. This means also  working out the bigger arm movements and not just fingering in isolation.

Particularly it's important to work out suitable fingerings for fast passages right at the beginning. Often the fingering that looks obvious and easy at first sight just won't work if you try to speed it up. I'm learning Bach's Prelude no. 2 in C min from WTC which is a very good example of this. The "obvious" fingering involves too much stretching; I watched how my teacher experimented with a variety of fingerings, working on each bar or smaller note-group at speed firstly in isolation and then seeing how that worked in the context of the phrase. This is I think the sort of procedure that Bernhard describes in his practice method, ie  the importance of ingraining the correct movements at the little chunk stage of learning, or that Mr Chang's book describes.
 

[asyncopated]

I'm not Bernard, but I'll make a couple of suggestions anyway.

In the loosest possible conception, all fingering is a matter of personal taste.  You can play most of fantasy impromptu with your index fingers of both hands except for about 15 bars, where you need to press 2 keys at the same time, if you wish.  But, doing this is going to be really really difficult.

For any fingering, do what you think is: firstly, most comfortable and secondly, best for the music, not neccesarily in that order.

Here are a few other hints on what to consider when choosing fingering.  Try to keep the same fingering for identical patterns or figures.  A pattern might be written with various chords, or in different modes.  As for as possible, don't alter the fingering, this is so that you won't get confused when playing the piece.

Use fingering appropriate to the music.  If you have to play very fast passages in scales or  appegios, use fingering with less thumb under/over.  If you have to play a legato or lyrical piece, you might consider using legato fingering. i.e. losely speaking, changing fingers whilst holding down a note. 

There are some old schools that consider the forth and fifth fingers weaker and avoid important notes with these fingers.  I think this is a problem more to do with technique than fingering per se.  In general, I don't really subscribe to this rule.  If you play mainly using your sholders, forearm and wrist not lift your fingers high, the last two finger should be as "strongs" as the others.  You only need to keep the fingers firm and hold your hand in a natural shape, and play by rotating your wrist or trusting your hand.  However, I do keep this in mind when playin staccato. 

Choose fingering that will prepare you for what is ahead.  Make changes like thumb over or thumb under at easy sections, so that you will not run out of fingers. 

If you have large or small hands, you might want to consider fingering appropriate to the size of your hand.  In general, fingering should allow you to relax as much as possible and not stretch you.

If you play repeated notes (the same note more than once consecutively), consider using differnt fingers to play each note.  This is because although the note is the same, no two notes should should exactly the same.

I reckon that if you spend some time trying differnt finger you will soon discover what you like and what works.  By all means use the stuff in the achieve as a guide, but don't be bound by hand and fast rules. 

Remember, fingering is personal thing and you use it to to serve the music that you are playing.

al.

 

[illusion]

Thanks, Dorfmouse

The fact that there are >1000 scores, you can't really go wrong even if fingering isn't the best, i guess.  I'll go ahead and order... it's a great offer.

At this early stage (in my progress), i was just more concerned with doing it wrong, and therefore being more detrimental than good, but I see what you mean... i'll grab the deal whilst on offer... and worry about the fingering as it comes.  

Cheers

[illusion]

Thanks, Al

Grateful for the time spent on this one. 

I guess I was aware of some of the 'rules' to fingering afterall.  Some informative tricks there too... so appreciated. 

As an aside, I realised after I posted the initial message that it sounded like a message to Bernhard only.  I really just wanted get his attention to incl. his input.  Sorry folks.. no offence intended. 

I've gleaned so much info from so many on here.. i'm getting to the overwhelmed stage...     May have to pull back a bit, and work on one topic at a time..
 
Thanks again. 

[bernhard]

Yes, I have little to add to what has been said above in regards to fingering. No matter what edition, you should always regard fingering as a suggestions only. For more principles on fingering, have a  look here:

Having said that, there is another aspect of these scores you should be concerned about In early 1900’s editors were very fond of adding their own directions to the score, even a few notes. This is especially important in Baroque and early classical music where from the 1950’s scholarship n these matters advanced by leaps and bounds. Most romantic music is usually all right, but be very wary of any Bach/Handel/Scarlatti you may find in these editions. Perhaps the most famous case is Bach’s prelude no. 1 (Book 1) of the WTC where a whole new bar was added since the editor thought something was missing. There is also a famous piece by Mozart (I cannot remember which) where the editor changed the original harmony since it did not comform the the rule that says that you should not have parallel 5ths.

I know this sounds a bit frightening, but do not let this deter you. As long as you are aware of it, and as long as you have a way to check it out, the ridiculous price of what amounts to a huge amount of sheet music is well worth it. As an example, I have the complete Scarlatti sonatas on CD (around £20 for over 2500 pages of music). But it is the Longo edition – a very dodgy edition to say the least. However, my local library does have the Keneth Gilbert complete edition of the sonatas (which would have cost a whoopping £ 800), so whenever I contemplate learning a sonata, I go to the library and check it, and if necessary make the amendments. (By the way, comparing different editions is in itself a very educational enterprise.)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[illusion]

Thanks, Bernhard, appreciate your time/wisdom.

Will be checking Library membership directly     (Love it when mysteries are debunked)

If you see this... what was the link you were referring to above? 

Thanks again... much obliged.

[bernhard]

Thanks, Bernhard, appreciate your time/wisdom.

Will be checking Library membership directly     (Love it when mysteries are debunked)

If you see this... what was the link you were referring to above? 

Thanks again... much obliged.

Sorry, I forgot to include the link.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2749.msg23873.html#msg23873
(Principles of fingering: Replies #6&7)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[illusion]

 Thanks, Bernhard

Glad you took the time to check thread again. 

I'm making a 'self-help' book here.... 



Ever-grateful