finger independence. help!

[kevink]

Hello all,
I am at my wit's end.  A constant issue with my Bach playing that does not tend to show up as much elsewhere is finger independence.  The problem is that in scalar passages, even of two or three notes, I have difficulty keeping them in tempo; especially if they are rhythmically diminutive.  My two hands often have difficulty lining up in these instances. 

For example, right now I am working on Bach's 2nd Partita in c minor.  The second segment of the sinfonia has these 32nd note runs in the right hand, and I often compact those too much (go too quickly).  The following invention presents the same problems, in both hands.  Here, I have difficulty keeping both hands securely "in step."  When I falter, it is only by the slightest bit--but you can hear it, and it sounds insecure.

Anyone have a magic trick that will work with this?  So far I have tried hands alone, slow practice with metronome and without metronome, gradual speeding up with metronome, and even singing with my hands alone and together.  The singing seems to help some.   Only other thing that has helped with any significance is making sure I am staying away from finger patterns that go 543 or 345; those fingers are just trouble...  It is unavoidable sometimes though.

Just to clarify, I don't have rhythmic steadiness problems--I can sing the parts perfectly and know what I want to hear and when it doesn't happen for me.  This is a finger independence problem, I think.

Thanks for your help,
Kevin

[quantum]

Try taking a section with independence problem.  Play only the notes with the problem, HT.  Very slowly at first then speeding up.  Try to isolate problem sections instead of playing the other parts you can play well. 

Pay attention to unnecessary tension in writsts and arms. 

Articulate fingers (lift them, as opposed to close to the keys).  This will allow you to focus more on individual finger movements.  It will also help pinpoint slugish fingers. 

You say you are compacting the 32nds.  Try to subdivide your beats.  Instead of counting in 8ths count in 16ths, etc.  Fit 2 32nds in 1 16th.  Again focus on the RH finger articulation of the 32nds. 

[Barbosa-piano]

 I agree with quantum, and I would suggest the study of Chopin's Etude Op10 No.4 implementing that.

[ramseytheii]

Definitely study Chopin Etude op.10 no.4, no better suggestion could be made!

Also take control of every level of rhythm, from the sixteenth to the eighth, to the quarter and the half.  What I mean is to practice first feeling the smallest level, perhaps a subdivision of the sixteenth; then play it again feeling the larger beat, and so on and so on until infinity if you choose.

No tension is necessary here, and it is not important to play especially loudly or with a full tone.  Please relax.

And finally remember the hands do not simply play up and down, side to side, across  the keyboard, they go in and out also, like a fish swimming in waters, curving through waters, not in a straight line.  Not every finger is the same length, and the body has to constantly adjust.

Walter Ramsey

[musicsdarkangel]

I would also recommend Chopin's thirds etude....

Well, Liszt also did his very first excersize on finger independance.

I use it, and have noticed a difference, but you can easily get tendonitis.

So if you do it, be careful.

[robert]

So far you have diagnosed your problem roughly but you need to track it down even more. You need to understand what patterns that causes your problems and then practise these patterns many many times using finger independency exercises.

Most likely, your problems consists of a 3 or 4 key pattern (I will not go into a discussion why this is the case, I refer to Chang for more information). For 3 key patterns, you got 10 finger combinations which all can produce 6 patterns.
The combinations are 1-2-3, 1-2-4, 1-2-5, 1-3-4, 1-3-5, 1-4-5, 2-3-4, 2-3-5, 2-4-5 and 3-4-5. The first combination of 1-2-3 can have the following 6 variations:
1-2-3, 1-3-2, 2-1-3, 2-3-1, 3-1-2, 3-2-1. If you play them over and over again with a rhytmic steady beat, there are actually only 2 variations (up or down) but it gets rhytmically more difficult if the metronome click is located at the middle finger for example so all 6 patterns are valid to practise. So all together, you got 60 different patterns. Try to figure out which ones that matches your problem and you have the magic formula to eliminte your problems.

For 4 key patterns, there are only 5 combinations as you leave out only 1 finger at the time. But each pattern has 24 variations which ends up in a total of 120 different patterns.

Then we have the 2 and 5 finger combinations which you can figure out by yourself but as I said before, the problem is likely within a 3 or 4 finger pattern.

Piano playing is actually all about finger independence and what we do when we practise these exercises is to practise the brains capability to control the fingers. Practise to metronome and with a speed you can control. Try different variations of black and white keys until you have diagnosed your problem. Then repeat the exercise that fits about 100-200 times a day and gradually increase the speed.
This is much more efficient than to learn a whole new etude (unless you have a second reason to learn it) and will hopefully save a lot time. Take your time to find the problematic patterns. It should not take long and then spend maybe 4-5 days doing the exercises that match and you will most likely notice a great improvement.

Good luck!

[sznitzeln]

I dont really like the finger-pattern-stuff... sounds boring, and I dont think you need that (I'm sure they do help)
I find it less boring to do some exercises. I tried Hanon, liked it at first, but got fed up with it after 1-2 weeks. Now I am trying Dohnanyi, and those are very good for finger independence and strength/health of fingers. Some people say that fingers cant be independent. Maybe not, but the independence is in the brain.
Dohnanyi is a set of advanced exercises. In the first exercise you get to hold down  2 notes and then play 3-4-5 , and hold down 1,2,4 and play 3-5 , and other difficult things
Exercises should only be done for a short time every day.
Do NOT avoid the fingers 3-4-5, I repeat do NOT!! Else you will have problems with this all your life.

[bernhard]

There is some superficial discussion of this partita in this thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2856.msg25145.html#msg25145
(Partita 2 – the technique to play Bach)

Now for finger independence (a misnomer by the way).

You must understand the problem before you can appreciate the solution.

Read about it in these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2502.msg21594.html#msg21594
(Independence of the 3rd and 4thfinger – it is impossible, one should work towards the illusion of independence: it is all arm work)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7887.msg79326.html#msg79326
(why the lifting of the 4th finger is a non-problem)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7682.msg77042.html#msg77042
(hand independence: how to create a cue system and what is hand memory).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

The magic trick that will sort it all out for you is “dropping notes”. (It is a good idea to combine it with repeated note-groups if the situation is desperate).

Read about dropping notes in these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3917.msg35495.html#msg35495
(How to improve left hand – dropping notes for coordination)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1651.msg14344.html#msg14344
(How to gain hand independence – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2173.msg18976.html#msg18976
(dropping notes by comparing it with patting head/rubbing tummy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2720.msg23353.html#msg23353
(How to practice aim and accuracy – looking at the LH and giving verbal instructions to the RH – Full discussion on left and right brain).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg27140.html#msg27140
(Hands together: when and how – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg44855.html#msg44855
(Hands together – dropping notes – when to learn HT and when to learn HS)


Read about repeated note-groups here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21204.html#msg21204
(repeated note-groups as a way to tackle Czerny op. 740 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3064.msg26866.html#msg26866
(Repeated note-groups applied to Gottschalk)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2552.msg22037.html#msg22037
(Accuracy – causes for inaccuracy – One possible solution: repeated note-groups)


This is just the tip of the iceberg. Try it out, and come back with more questions for the next bit of information.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Doodle]

For any scale passage I have a tried and true solution.

Practice the passages slowly with a "dotted eighth sixteenth" pattern.  Gallop through the passages playing long---short, long--- short, etc.

Then reverse the pattern.   Playing with a "sixteenth dotted eighth" pattern.  Gallop through the passages plaing short long---- short long---- short long.

Keep going back and forth practicing these different patterns.  Then go back to playing it staight.

It will work.   Everything will smooth out.
D