Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux

[steinwayguy]

Does anyone know all of those to give a relative order of difficulty, or even some of the hardest and some of the easiest? Any help on the relative difficulty of these pieces would be greatly, greatly appreciated.

[JP]

The harder ones in no particular order..
39/1 33/8 39/6 39/3 33/5

Except for 39/6, its IMO the killer.
I havent played all of them, but I've had to analyze all of them..


Is this for a performance?  Cause that would be kinda crazy & great all at the same time.. 

[steinwayguy]

39/6 is the one I was planning on doing (this is for the virtuosic etude requirement for conservatories). However, it seems pretty unapproachable. Could anyone compare it to the difficulty of anything else- is it harder than any Chopin Etude (I'm betting it is)

[JP]

Chopin Études, no.. Godwosky, yes.  I kid you not...
Its not hard to read.. If you arent used to those harmonies that may add to the difficulty a little, but I think I read you played a lot of Ravel, so you should be used to these sounds.. Or is that another dude with Steinway in is username?!

Playing it at good speed is difficult though..  I hope you'll have someone guiding you through it, cause it requires a very sharp technique.  Sharp in the sense of a very particular technique.. Relaxation is critical in this piece.  Otherwise you wont get passed the 2nd line..   

 

[steinwayguy]

Chopin Études, no.. Godwosky, yes. I kid you not...
Its not hard to read.. If you arent used to those harmonies that may add to the difficulty a little, but I think I read you played a lot of Ravel, so you should be used to these sounds.. Or is that another dude with Steinway in is username?!

Playing it at good speed is difficult though.. I hope you'll have someone guiding you through it, cause it requires a very sharp technique. Sharp in the sense of a very particular technique.. Relaxation is critical in this piece. Otherwise you wont get passed the 2nd line..

 

Do you mean 39/6 is harder than all the Chopin Etudes but not as hard as some (all?) of the Godowsky Etudes?

And I haven't played any Ravel really, although I'm about to start working on the Toccata from Le Tombeau de Couperin...

[JP]

Do you mean 39/6 is harder than all the Chopin Etudes but not as hard as some (all?) of the Godowsky Etudes?

And I haven't played any Ravel really, although I'm about to start working on the Toccata from Le Tombeau de Couperin...

Harder than Chopin, comparable to Godowsky.

[JP]

Good luck with the toccata, it sounds harder than it actually is to play.. 
Amybe not the best intro to Ravel though..  Did your teacher suggest this piece (toccata)?

[pseudopianist]

Where does the 39/5 land in the ratings of these pieces? And which pieces is it comparable to (Chopin, Liszt?)

[steinwayguy]

After my recital, my teacher assigned me Schubert D.960 for our studio concert series (Schubert piano sonatas) and Le Tombeau de Couperin (all of it) just for fun . . .

Harder than Chopin, comparable to Godowsky.

Alright, that's what I thought.

My audition program (which varies from school to school) is:
Bach P&F in A Minor, Book 1 WTC
Schubert Sonata D.960
Liszt Mephisto Waltz
Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux Op. 39 No. 6
Toccatata from Le Tombeau de Couperin (or maybe the entire thing, but with the rest of that program . . . )

and if I decide to apply to Curtis (which is practically pointless), it will be
Bach P&F in A Minor, Book 1 WTC
Beethoven Sonata in E-flat, Op. 7
Chopin Ballade No. 4 in F Minor, Op. 52
Chopin Etude in E Minor, Op. 25 No. 5
Toccata from Le Tombeau de Couperin


and applying to Curtis would be stupid because it'd be sooooooooooooo much more work.

[JP]

Where does the 39/5 land in the ratings of these pieces? And which pieces is it comparable to (Chopin, Liszt?)

My rating.. 39/5 would be just passed the middle in the difficulty spectrum of the Rachmaninov Études, on the harder side.  But not as bad as the ones I listed.
These Études are generally  harder than the Chopin Études.. Like I said earlier, they require a refined technique..

PS, all this from a technical point of view.. 

[JP]

After my recital, my teacher assigned me Schubert D.960 for our studio concert series (Schubert piano sonatas) and Le Tombeau de Couperin (all of it) just for fun . . .

Alright, that's what I thought.

My audition program (which varies from school to school) is:
Bach P&F in A Minor, Book 1 WTC
Schubert Sonata D.960
Liszt Mephisto Waltz
Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux Op. 39 No. 6
Toccatata from Le Tombeau de Couperin (or maybe the entire thing, but with the rest of that program . . . )

and if I decide to apply to Curtis (which is practically pointless), it will be
Bach P&F in A Minor, Book 1 WTC
Beethoven Sonata in E-flat, Op. 7
Chopin Ballade No. 4 in F Minor, Op. 52
Chopin Etude in E Minor, Op. 25 No. 5
Toccata from Le Tombeau de Couperin


and applying to Curtis would be stupid because it'd be sooooooooooooo much more work.

Those are all very nice selections.. 

Do yourself a favour and start that 39/6 ASAP..   From what I've heard, 39/6 is among the top 5 pieces for failure rate.. Meaning many good pianists just won't be able to get a grasp on it. Which explains why its a requisite.    

Good luck with it!  If you have specific questions let me know, I've played it..

[steinwayguy]

Those are all very nice selections.. 

Do yourself a favour and start that 39/6 ASAP..   From what I've heard, 39/6 is among the top 5 pieces for failure rate.. Meaning many good pianists just won't be able to get a grasp on it. Which explains why its a requisite.     

Good luck with it!  If you have specific questions let me know, I've played it..

I'll start it tonight 

Also, what fingering do you use for those repeated notes at the beginning? 2-3 or 3-2?

[Dazzer]

I sense a level of egoism going here so i'm not going to comment on the pieces, other than they're all hard, in some way or another. So good luck with your audition.

[JP]

I'll start it tonight 

Also, what fingering do you use for those repeated notes at the beginning? 2-3 or 3-2?

Downward motion..
5-2-3-1


Is there a required speed? (metronome marking by university)

[JP]

I sense a level of egoism going here so i'm not going to comment on the pieces, other than they're all hard, in some way or another. So good luck with your audition.

If you're referring to my difficulty ranking, like I said its based on my experiences (read : suffering)..  If you're referring to my comment on how 39/6 is a hard, often impossible, to get to recital level, know that that is a fact.  Ask your teacher, colleagues, or whoever else..

Egoism shouldn’t exist among musicians it leads to counterproductive habits.
I teach my students that anyone can play anything if approached in the right manner.  That it be true or not that is what they are instructed.  However certain variables can restrict what is possible and what isn’t.  i.e. : deadlines..
     
Cheers!

[nanabush]

The only one I've played was Op. 33number 7 for Grade 10 RCM study... Is that the easiest one?  Probably eh?

[steinwayguy]

The only one I've played was Op. 33number 7 for Grade 10 RCM study... Is that the easiest one? Probably eh?

It's the most beautiful one, that's for sure. 

I sense a level of egoism going here so i'm not going to comment on the pieces, other than they're all hard, in some way or another. So good luck with your audition.

It's my college audition program. How is that egotistical? It's not. It's just a fact. It doesn't look like I'm saying "my rep is a hell of a lot harder than yours so I'm a better pianist and musician". I would never say that.

And yes, I'll post a recording of my recital in December with that program.

[steinwayguy]

Downward motion..
5-2-3-1


Is there a required speed? (metronome marking by university)

First, what do you mean by downward? To the left or actually vertically down? I'm having the most success with the quasi-Horowitzian technique of striking (not a good word, I know) the keys by curling my fingers into my palm.

Also, this was not the particular Etude required. The requirement I'm fulfilling with this is the "virtuosic etude" requirement. I was told by a friend that everybody does Chopin, so I wouldn't stand out. And this is one of my favorite, if not my favorite, Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux, so that's why I picked it.

[JP]

The only one I've played was Op. 33number 7 for Grade 10 RCM study... Is that the easiest one?  Probably eh?

I also played that study for gr10.
Its a great sounding piece, as are 33/4, 39/4, actually they're all so nice..

[JP]

First, what do you mean by downward? To the left or actually vertically down? I'm having the most success with the quasi-Horowitzian technique of striking (not a good word, I know) the keys by curling my fingers into my palm.

Also, this was not the particular Etude required. The requirement I'm fulfilling with this is the "virtuosic etude" requirement. I was told by a friend that everybody does Chopin, so I wouldn't stand out. And this is one of my favorite, if not my favorite, Rachmaninoff Etudes-Tableaux, so that's why I picked it.

Downwards as in right to left. 

[steinwayguy]

OK thanks. Also, do you know of any editions with fingerings? I only have the Dover edition and it doesn't have any fingerings whatsoever.

[iumonito]

S, best of lucks with 39.6.  My experience is that one learns faster music one likes, so it should work for you.  It is a great piece of music and I don't play it, but I will keep you company, read it today and we can compare notes, for whatever it is worth for you.

I have heard this etude referred to as the little red riding hood etude, likely because it supposedly depicts part of the story.  Although often that type of stuff is bogus, these are, after all, Etude-Pictures, so maybe there is an extra-musical source to incorporate in your understanding of the work.

I will use 5 3 2 1, as the other way makes no sense to me.  I am using Dover as well.

Best wishes,
H

[steinwayguy]

S, best of lucks with 39.6. My experience is that one learns faster music one likes, so it should work for you. It is a great piece of music and I don't play it, but I will keep you company, read it today and we can compare notes, for whatever it is worth for you.

I have heard this etude referred to as the little red riding hood etude, likely because it supposedly depicts part of the story. Although often that type of stuff is bogus, these are, after all, Etude-Pictures, so maybe there is an extra-musical source to incorporate in your understanding of the work.

I will use 5 3 2 1, as the other way makes no sense to me. I am using Dover as well.

Best wishes,
H

Thanks, it looks like I'm going to use both 5-3-2-1 and 5-2-3-1. 5-2-3-1 when the first interval (for example the first instance is A to D#, then next A to E) is less than a fifth and 5-3-2-1 when it is a fifth or greater. I'm having a great deal of trouble trying to finger the gesture in measure 15 also.

[JP]

OK thanks. Also, do you know of any editions with fingerings? I only have the Dover edition and it doesn't have any fingerings whatsoever.

If there is I'm unaware of it..