possible purchase of estonia 190

[jwc]

I have been looking for a new ~6 ft grand piano and have really appreciated the many fine posts in this (and the other) forum that educate first time buyers like me on the merits of various pianos.  Our budget has been in the range of $20,000 to $25,000.  We had initially looked most seriously at the Kawai RX-3, Boston, Petrof III, & Yamaha C3, all of which seem fine pianos.  We were almost ready to purchase the Kawai RX-3 but decided to look at the Charles Walter and Estonia 190 based on posts by knowledgeable members in both forums, and favorable reviews from Larry Fine’s book.  Our preference is now leaning towards the Estonia 190, which would cost in the range of $24,000 to $25,000 (about $2,000 higher than a quote for the Kawai RX-3 from a reputable local dealer).  Our experience with the manager of the local Estonia dealer has been very pleasant.  They seem to have a solid reputation and their rebuilding factory is quite impressive.  I know that some prices quoted here for the Estonia 190 have been lower, but would you agree that since the dealer is reputable and future servicing of the piano should be very good, that the price quoted above is reasonable?  I understand that the “list” price has recently increased from about $29,000 to $33,000, so it’s likely very soon (if not already in some stores) the asking price will be increasing.  Thanks again to all of you who have already contributed so much to my education with your excellent posts. 

[Andres.T]

Good to hear that pianos from Estonia (The country where I happen to live) are good enaugh for players outside Estonia.

[Axtremus]

Good to hear that pianos from Estonia (The country where I happen to live) are good enaugh for players outside Estonia.

Actually, 90% of Estonia's piano production are for export to North America. Estonia pianos are practically designed and built for export, the whole piano building business is setup for export. (Can't blaim them... North America is quite possibly the largest market for grand piano in the world.)

jwc -- regarding price, if that's the piano you love best up to that price, you negotiated your darndest, and you cannot find another dealer willing to sell that piano for less, then you either pay the price or settle for something you love less. Post-sale dealer service, dealer reputation, list price increase, etc. are just noise, false justifications. No one really knows for sure that the people who have bought the same model at lower prices have really bought from "less reputable" dealers with "less post sale services." Those other dealers might just not have been mentioned on the Internet that much, that doesn't mean they're not also good, reputable dealers. It's just not a fair assumption to make. Most "list prices" in piano-dom are big jokes to begin with. I don't think you need any of the those justification.

Good luck.

[muzikluvvr]

I love to play piano, but I am not a professional. I like the Estonia piano quite a bit. I have played at a church that owns one and have great respect for the music director. He chose this piano over other instruments that were quite expensive.

Theirs is 6'3". very nice piano indeed.

Good Luck - this is an exciting time for you!

[skbpen]

The Estonia you are considering is the best piano for the price. The craftsmanship that goes into an Estonia far outweighs that of the Walter. I have personal experience with several of the Estonias and they have all been very consistent, warm, rich tone with very even action. The couple of Walters I've played did not make the transition well from the copper wound strings to the wire. Plus they seemed to be a little on the bright side, more like a Baldwin I tried.
Happy playing!

[pianopitchman]

skbpen,

Saying that you enjoy the tone of an Estonia over that of a Charles Walter is fine.  I believe sound is a very personal thing.  However, to say that the craftsmanship that goes into the Estonia far outweighs that of the Walter, leads me to dismiss any opinion you may have.  The Walters are magnificant pianos, every bit the equal (or possibly superior) to the Estonia as far as the materials and craftsmanship that go into the piano.

[muzikluvvr]

pianopitchman,

Relax and breathe easy. I have played Walter pianos (at a store). They are nice pianos. I also prefer the Estonia - don't know a hoot about construction, but I know what I like.

[iumonito]

skbpen,

Saying that you enjoy the tone of an Estonia over that of a Charles Walter is fine.  I believe sound is a very personal thing.  However, to say that the craftsmanship that goes into the Estonia far outweighs that of the Walter, leads me to dismiss any opinion you may have.  The Walters are magnificant pianos, every bit the equal (or possibly superior) to the Estonia as far as the materials and craftsmanship that go into the piano.

Rather than relax, let's test this a bit.  Can anyone say anything about the inharmonicity of the scale in each instrument, the speaking length and the relative tension of the notes around the cross-stringing transition, the design of the hammers and the thickness of the plate for each of these two instruments?  Duplex scale?  Tunable?

I understand both of them use Renner actions.  Anyone know anything about the specifications of these actions?  Are the spring-assisted?  Anything significant about the friction inherent in the action?  What is the touchweight range for factory specs for each?

I know new Estonias to be good pianos.  I have played one Charles R. Walter at a store in Chicago and found it entirely unremarkable; but likely it was not preped, so I don't know what potential that piano has.

[Axtremus]

Duplex scale:
Yes for Estonia (tunable front and back duplexes for the 190)
No duplex for Walter

Spring-Assisted Action
No for Estonia
Not sure about Walter, but I'd guess NO for it as well

Don't know about the rest. Rich Galassini and Keith Kerman can fill us in more if they want to.

Although, iumonito, I fail to see how your questions relate to pianopitchman and skbpen's squabble that you quoted. They squabble over "material" and "craftemenship," you hit on "design' questions... those appear to be orthogonal concepts to me. Nonetheless, I find those questions interesting. Thanks for asking them.

[barganax]

jwc,
I just finished a several month long piano search. I tried a wide range of pianos, from Prambergers at the low price end on up to Bosendorfers and Steinways at the high end. Like you, I was impressed with the Estonia 190. But, Estonias are such a hot item now, I think it unlikely that you can bargain very much with the dealers. In contrast, you could look at other pianos that retail in the $35K-45K range and possibly get those in the $25K-$30K range. So, if I were you, I would play the higher priced pianos, and, if you find something you like, then see if the dealer will offer it to you in your price range or close to it. If, on the other hand, you find that the Estonia 190 "speaks to you" like nothing else, then you can still buy the piano of your dreams, and you will furthermore have the knowledge that you took your time, did your research, even checked out more expensive pianos, etc.

Good luck in your search!

[iumonito]

Duplex scale:
Yes for Estonia (tunable front and back duplexes for the 190)
No duplex for Walter

Spring-Assisted Action
No for Estonia
Not sure about Walter, but I'd guess NO for it as well

Don't know about the rest. Rich Galassini and Keith Kerman can fill us in more if they want to.

Although, iumonito, I fail to see how your questions relate to pianopitchman and skbpen's squabble that you quoted. They squabble over "material" and "craftemenship," you hit on "design' questions... those appear to be orthogonal concepts to me. Nonetheless, I find those questions interesting. Thanks for asking them.

Ax, I agree craftmanship and design are not the same thing, strictu sensu.  However, when I read the squibble, my sense was that the discussion was which of the two is better build, and I think that the craft of designing the piano is first and formost part of that question.  After all, decisions about string scale, relative tension, execution of the capo d'astro bar and the duplex scale mean very little if you do not execute the design correctly, but at the same time it is meaningless to execute perfectly a poor design.  In my mind a finely crafted piano is a well designed piano to begin with.

As an aside I had a chance to play two Estonia's at Keith and Shaun's shop today.  The 190 was nicely preped and wiped out the somewhat disfavorable impression I had from the piano from when I played them in New York at a shop that should remain nameless (why linger: those who know know, and those who want to know can easily learn).  The piano was smooth, responsive and sang well.  It is no Irmler 222, but compared to a Steinway L (about the same size and $25,000 or so more expensive) I would take the Estonia no questions asked.

[Axtremus]

Thank you for your explanation, iumonito. Now I know better where you're coming from.

With regards to the Estonia, I am curious if you remember which model you actually tried at Keith's shop. The smaller model 168 (5'6") would be comparable in size to Steinway M, the larger model 190 (6'3") would be comparable in size to Steinway A, then a 9-foot model. I am quite sure there is no 5'10" model, which would be Steinway L's length.

That technicality aside, I have also become much more favorable towards Estonia 190 myself after playing a couple of meticulously prepared samples in Connecticut in late 2004. I have played a few 190's in late 2003 (Boston and New York) and was not particularly impressed, but the late 2004 model (coupled with good prep work) really turned it around for me. Touch and tone aside, the fit and finish of the 2004-ish models also appear much improved over the 2003 and earlier models.

Along the same line, I have also had very disappointing experiences with the Charles Walter 190 when I played them in 2003, which I suspect was purely a matter of poor preparation. Earlier this year, I played a concert rental CW 190 in New Jersey (Rich G's shop, actually) and came away with a much improved impression of the CW 190. Perhaps you too would one day come across a better prepared Walter 190.

CORRECTION: Rich G's shop is in Pennsylvania.

[iumonito]

I played one of each, but I was taking about the 190.  And you are right, size is comparable to Steinway A.  That being a less available model I was trying to make a comparison to something people would recognize.

[rich_galassini]

Ax wrote:
 Earlier this year, I played a concert rental CW 190 in New Jersey (Rich G's shop, actually) and came away with a much improved impression of the CW 190. Perhaps you too would one day come across a better prepared Walter 190.

Ax,

Thanks for the good words, but Cunningham Piano is in Philly - NEAR New Jersey,no doubt, but not IN New Jersey.

Some feel like it is a rectangle/square thing, but I don't know.......


BTW, jwc, congratulations, you chose a heckuva dealer and the gentleman tha waited on you...... sounds like a gem! 

[Axtremus]

I crossed the stateline? D'oh! :slap forehead:

[jwc]

We finally decided on the Estonia 190.  Thank you all again for your willingness to share your opinions and experience.  Best regards.  jwc

[barganax]

Congrats JWC!
May it bring you many years of enjoyment.