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Topic: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique (Read 4319 times)

prodigy91

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hi every onE! i'm a newbie...as shown...well i'm a pianist...not very old...hahas! in my really early teens...hmm i just found a piece by beethovan....the song pathetique....wel it seems really nice but...can u all guide me in how i can kinda master this song?thanks alot!

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kghayesh

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #1 on: June 08, 2005, 02:14:52 PM

Well u should tell us first what is your level....
what are the pieces you currently play

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Kassaa

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #2 on: June 08, 2005, 02:46:57 PM

* Kassaa hits himself.

IT'S NOT A SONG, IT'S A PIECE.

And what have you played before?

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6ft 4

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #3 on: June 08, 2005, 03:31:29 PM

if ur calling it a "song" then its way beyond ur level.

With practice, build ur way up and then play it when ur capable of doing so.

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gorbee natcase

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #4 on: June 08, 2005, 03:44:19 PM

Pay more practice time to the second page onwards as this is a little harder to get sounding right rhythm wise. and the first page is actualy quite easy to learn

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happyface94

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #5 on: June 08, 2005, 05:11:38 PM

You might be able to play the 3rd mouvement, and the 2nd.

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fehrle

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #6 on: June 08, 2005, 08:25:40 PM

Whatever, if you like op.13 you should learn it!!! I think it was one of my first Beethoven sonatas and it's great fun to play. I would start with the grave sections of the first movement.... count 16th notes and its not so bad. Find a good recording, it will help you cement the rhythm in your head. Where most people go wrong with this piece is with the rhythm in the first part, i think, so make sure you get it right!!! Then, move on to the allegro. Practice slowly and slowly move the metronome up. Most importantly, talk to your teacher... you will get so much more out of the piece if you have someone older wiser and more musically mature to guide you.

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joeplaysthepiano

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #7 on: June 08, 2005, 09:33:10 PM

I can't explain this:

I'm learning both the 1st and 3rd movements right now, and I find that the 3rd is much more difficult for me to get up to speed. Has anyone else had this experience? Does anyone have any general tips on the 3rd movement?

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dk

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #8 on: June 08, 2005, 09:36:46 PM

I think the 2nd is the most difficult..

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PhilomelaShira

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #9 on: June 08, 2005, 09:40:20 PM

I just finished performing this piece =) I think the third movement is more or less just muscle memory and knowing exactly where your fingers need to be...other than that it flows nice enough.

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Rach3

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #10 on: June 09, 2005, 04:23:52 AM

Here we go again!

Quote

Where most people go wrong with this piece is with the rhythm in the first part, i think, so make sure you get it right!!!

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but please do not attempt a well-known sonata like Pathetique if you are confused about its motif's rhythm. IMHO where most people go wrong is precisely that they can stumble through the funereal slowwwww stuffffff on page one, and then can't do page two because it's fast and requires LH chops. Or to be cynical, most people go wrong with this piece by learning it much too early and not having a clue about what it is, let alone how to perform it.
Op. 13 is not an easy piece, it's demanding and unforgiving; being very well known, audiences (good ones) will be unforgiving as well. It has (imho) a terribly undeserved reputation as an 'easy', 'simple', 'beginner's piece', when in fact the Allergo is easily on par with Appassionata (and probably even more overplayed/hackneyed).

Quote

Whatever, if you like op.13 you should learn it!!!

Unhelpful advice. Applies to Rach 3, Brahms 2, anyone's paganini variations, Mazeppa, ***zt b minor sonata, what have you.

Quote

I think the 2nd is the most difficult..

At the moment I agree.

Quote

I'm learning both the 1st and 3rd movements right now, and I find that the 3rd is much more difficult for me to get up to speed

This is surprising - most people think the ultrafast tremolos in the Allegro are a lot harder. How are you approaching the finale/what are you having difficulty with? How fast are you trying to play it?

Quote

I think the third movement is more or less just muscle memory and knowing exactly where your fingers need to be

Eh? Getting the fingers to the right place is the most insignificant part of this piece.

OP: You may not have known, but it's not a "song", it's a "piece" or a "work" or an early Beethoven "sonata", and yes it does matter.

-Rach3, who is always grumpy like this because he is addicted to coffee

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chev_bigblock

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #11 on: June 09, 2005, 04:37:10 AM

Speaking of the Pathetique... When I get back (I currently have moved away from my hometown for a few months (and am in the process of finding a new teacher there)) my teacher says I should start learning the Pathetique. I really have only one concern right now (that may change when I start actually playing the sonata), and that is all the left hand tremoloing (new word, I think). To be honest, my left hand is already pretty poor at left hand tremoloing (and probably compared everyone else on this bored so is my right), and I don't think my left hand can stand up to it. Does anybody have any tips/technique ideas/encouragement to offer? Anything that helped them with this piece? Sorry Prodigy91 if I am distracting from your post. I didn't mean to, and I'm sure any advice anyone posts will also help you...

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Rach3

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #12 on: June 09, 2005, 04:43:56 AM

Single most important point with tremolos - avoid tension.

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gorbee natcase

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #13 on: June 09, 2005, 07:58:27 AM

How about practicing them. as with all things practice makes perfect.

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yamaha

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #14 on: June 09, 2005, 01:20:38 PM

Quote from: Rach3 on June 09, 2005, 04:43:56 AM

Single most important point with tremolos - avoid tension.

I agree. I learnt the Pathetique for a diploma exam and actually injured my LH practicing those tremolos resulting in a bit of physio and weeks of no LH work

My problem is that I have a rather small hand and can only just reach an octave so the constant octave stretch combined with tremololololo

wasnt easy for me. Practice carefully and at the first sign of ANY discomfort STOP.

Quote from: joeplaysthepiano on June 08, 2005, 09:33:10 PM

I can't explain this:

I'm learning both the 1st and 3rd movements right now, and I find that the 3rd is much more difficult for me to get up to speed. Has anyone else had this experience? Does anyone have any general tips on the 3rd movement?

I would say I found the 1st and 3rd movements equally difficult

Those triplets at the proper tempo are terribly difficult, well to me anyway

And those RH chords at bar 185 !!!

In my exam I completely missed the first chord and hit something totally wrong and consequently the next two chords were wrong as well, in both hands and FF !!

No suprise that I failed I guess!!

My advice for speeding up both these movements is HS work. I found that trying to increase tempo HS helped the HT speed overall. Of course I was still doing HT work as well.

Good luck

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joeplaysthepiano

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #15 on: June 09, 2005, 09:07:58 PM

Rach 3,

Well, it's possibly because the recording that I've been listening to lately is Brendel's, in which he plays pretty darn fast in my opinion. I've heard much slower recordings than that. I've found the tremolos in the 1st to fall into place naturally for me. It was just a matter of gaining the endurance to play them for an extended amount of time. As for the 3rd, it's those triplets that are killing me. The ones i'm talking about are for example, don't have the score with me, but it goes:

g-eflat-f-g-f-eflat-aflat

those ones are killer for me to sound crisp at a fast speed. What should the tempo be there? Around 116 per half note?

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nanabush

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #16 on: June 09, 2005, 09:50:53 PM

Yes, the triplets in the left hand especially in the 3rd movement are very difficult, and I find that the most difficult part in 3rd movement. The second movement is the easiest technically, but the hardest to perfect musically.

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fehrle

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #17 on: June 10, 2005, 12:22:48 AM

Quote from: Rach3 on June 09, 2005, 04:23:52 AM

Unhelpful advice. Applies to Rach 3, Brahms 2, anyone's paganini variations, Mazeppa, ***zt b minor sonata, what have you.

I do not think it is fair that you would equate op.13 with the rest of these pieces. That is not to say that Op.13 is easy, far from it. However, it is a highly instructive and, yes, challenging piece. My technique was greatly improved after studying it... left hand tremelo, hand crossing, seventh arpeggios etc. Prodigy, talk to your teacher and ask if he/she thinks youre ready for it. Good luck. (Beware though, as Rach 3 says it is highly overplayed/hackneyed).

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hogifu

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #18 on: June 10, 2005, 10:36:19 AM

For learning the tremolos I would also advise to look into Chuan C. Chang's book. I didn't found the tremolos itself very hard, but I think it's quite difficult to play the staccato accords in the right hand precisely at the right time - it's not only the speed but also that you have to play it piano, a fact often ignored by beginners of the piece. If you play the accords just a tiny bit too late it will immediately sound sloppy. A digital piano comes very handy for practicing as it allows to playback the recordings at slower speeds.

By the way, what do you think of Gould's performance of the piece? I think he actually manages to play the first movement too fast and I really cannot understand how he manages to do the hand crossing at such a speed.

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squinchy

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #19 on: June 10, 2005, 07:57:36 PM

From my 7 months of practicing the Allegro incorrectly and 1 month of learning it to a still-deplorable level, I've figured out that to play the tremoli, you need to feel as if you're slapping the piano and flapping around with your left hand. Controlled flapping, but definitely not an overplanned-note playing.

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kelly_kelly

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #20 on: June 27, 2005, 06:52:14 PM

What is the tempo of the 3rd movement of this sonata? I remember listening to a recording that played MUCH faster than I did, but as I really disliked the recording I didn't change my tempo. I thank I play it around half note = 96. Is this way off the mark?

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Rach3

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #21 on: June 27, 2005, 08:14:01 PM

My appendix of sonata tempos says the correct tempo is in the range of 96 (Czerny) to 112 (Haslinger). So yes, 96 is fine - and it sounds good as far as I can tell.

-Rach3

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Rach3

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #22 on: June 27, 2005, 08:15:41 PM

Quote

From my 7 months of practicing the Allegro incorrectly and 1 month of learning it to a still-deplorable level, I've figured out that to play the tremoli, you need to feel as if you're slapping the piano and flapping around with your left hand. Controlled flapping, but definitely not an overplanned-note playing.

This doesn't sound quite right... slapping and flapping?

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joeplaysthepiano

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #23 on: June 28, 2005, 12:36:52 AM

Quote from: Rach3 on June 27, 2005, 08:14:01 PM

My appendix of sonata tempos says the correct tempo is in the range of 96 (Czerny) to 112 (Haslinger). So yes, 96 is fine - and it sounds good as far as I can tell.

-Rach3

Sweet, I was listening to Brendel's version and it seemed like he was going at about 116. I was trying to model my playing after that. I think this piece would be much easier at something like 96 or 100. Funnily enough, I was watching a documentary about Aerosmith on Vh1, and they mentioned how steven tyler loved playing classical piano (although tyler himself acted like a fool when he said he loved to sit down in front of a bach sonata). Anyways, in the background the 3rd movement was playing at a very slow pace, but it still sounded quite beautiful. I think I will lower my speed now.

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lostinidlewonder

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #24 on: June 29, 2005, 10:27:03 AM

Who is Beethovan?

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gorbee natcase

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #25 on: June 29, 2005, 07:48:22 PM

Quote from: lostinidlewonder on June 29, 2005, 10:27:03 AM

Who is Beethovan?

Some guy

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ako

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #26 on: July 01, 2005, 12:01:49 AM

Quote from: yamaha on June 09, 2005, 01:20:38 PM

I agree. I learnt the Pathetique for a diploma exam and actually injured my LH practicing those tremolos resulting in a bit of physio and weeks of no LH work My problem is that I have a rather small hand and can only just reach an octave so the constant octave stretch combined with tremololololo wasnt easy for me. Practice carefully and at the first sign of ANY discomfort STOP.

Good adivce. Anytime your hand hurts, you should stop. I also have small hands. The way I played tremelos was rotating my whole arm from side to side while keeping my fingers strong rolling from 5 to 1 to 5...etc. Do it slow then speed up. It's kind of like the motion of turning the door knob.

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pianote

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Re: Beethovan Sonata Pathetique

Reply #27 on: July 02, 2005, 11:52:02 PM

using the 1st and 2nd movements for competing is a bad idea. the 3rd isn't as overplayed...so it's a tad bit better. competing with the 1st movement is like competing with the fantasie impromptu- it needs to be very well played...should I say anymore?

p.s. attempting this piece before developing strong wrists will tear them up.

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