Okay time for me to request some advice: tense arm + stamina?

[Dazzer]

Okay i have this problem which really restricts me from playing long aggressive pieces longer than 3-4 minutes. By the time i reach the halfway point of a piece (the case in point the last chopin etude op25 or rachmaninov etude 39/1, both have rapid and continuous righthand notes and movement for pretty much the whole piece) my right arm will have stiffened like a damn rock. Incredibly difficult to play under that condition. I've narrowed the stiffness to my right forearm muscle(s) just before the elbow. Strangely, my left arm doesn't seem to suffer from it. Maybe its because my left arm is so damn weak i can't put any stress on it hahaha.

If anyone can advice on where i'm going wrong, please reply thank you.

[cryptkeeper]

I've got the exact same problem. It's also my right forearm that gets stiff. It helps a little bit if I try to make sure my shoulders are relaxed, but it doesn't solve the problem.
The problem only occurs when I'm playing a piece with rapid and continuous righthand notes, just like you.

[ted]

While we're waiting for the experts to reply I can only suggest what I would do if this happened to me. I would try varying, one at a time, each element of my way of playing the offending passages. If I played it with curved fingers I would try flattening them or vice-versa. If I were using extending finger strokes I would try contracting ones or vice-versa. I would try lowering my wrists if they were high or raising them if they were low. I would, in this fashion - might take a few days - arrive at a specific combination which did not produce the undesirable result.

In the past I have found this "naive" process of elimination has worked for me. Indeed, it often gives two or more valid ways of playing something, and that's handy to know.

[Dazzer]

oh i've tried many things... still haven't got it:(

[xvimbi]

While we're waiting for the experts to reply ...

If we keep waiting for them, nothing will ever happen

Well, Ted is of course right: when something doesn't work, try something else.

You have an additional advantage in that your left arm seems to be just fine, so analyze carefully what you are doing differently with your left arm.

Also, try to pinpoint exactly which muscles give you problems. Then look up what kind of movements those muscles carry out, and you will probably be close to the solution.

Check out
https://www.gwc.maricopa.edu/class/bio201/muscle/arm/frma.htm
and
https://www.freepgs.com/edoctor/anatomy2.htm

Finally, your problems arise from too much tension, they all do. I'm sure, I'm not telling you anything new. What I would like to stress, though, is that one can contract (i.e. tense) muscles without actually moving anything. So, you could for example figure out that you are having problems with a muscle that primarily moves your hand as a whole (wrist motion), and you would say "Hey, but I'm not moving my wrist at all. What gives?" That is probably because you are engaging both agonist and antagonist muscles at the same time (co-contraction). This cancels each other, so that nothing moves, but the muscles are contracted nevertheless. You need to relax all muscles that do not have to be contracted. Your left arm can do it, so all you have to do is talk to your right arm

[bernhard]

Exceellent advice from xvimbi and Ted. 

You are using your agonist muscles against your antagonist muscles (known as co-contraction). This is solved by replacing the movement you are presently doing by circular movement that use only one set of the pair of muscles.

Pracitse the movement slowly and with large movements. Then acquire speed not by moving faster, but bydecreasing the range of movement to the point where the circles become invisible t othe eye. In fact, you will sound fast and powerful, but visually you will look like you are not moving too much at all, in an easy and effortless way.

This is difficult to describe in writing, it has to be demonstrated. I have tried to do it in this more detailed post:

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg84684.html#msg84684
(circular movements to avoid co-contraction)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html#msg84686
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)


I am also curious about what the experts will say.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[mound]

Pracitse the movement slowly and with large movements. Then acquire speed not by moving faster, but bydecreasing the range of movement to the point where the circles become invisible t othe eye. In fact, you will sound fast and powerful, but visually you will look like you are not moving too much at all, in an easy and effortless way.

This is difficult to describe in writing, it has to be demonstrated. I have tried to do it in this more detailed post:

This is exactly how my teacher describe it to me in the beginning. Especially when we started with scales.  I solved the tension problem just like that, starting with large circular motions, and slowly making those motions inperceptible.  As Bernhard said, it's very easy to demonstrate, very difficult to describe in writing.

-Paul

[Dazzer]

I'll try to interpret it best i can and get back to you

Meanwhile waiting for MORE experts to give their view on the matter.

(And sorry for not searching through the forums for similar threads... me bad)

[Astyron]

I used to have this problem in college and while my professor didn't explain the circular thing well, he demonstrated it in his playing often enough that I kind of got it from his modeling.  One thing he did point out clearly was that I wasn't releasing the tension in either hand when playing large chords that repeat/move, or running octave scales.  I would lock my hand into one position then bouce about.  He encouraged me (particularly with the chords) to play the chord but then release and not hold it (let the pedal help me), let my hand  relax for a micro-second before moving to the next chord.  This helped me the most and didn't slow me down once I understood.  It's like bernhard said -- the motion gets smaller and smaller and less visible but it's still present in our body.  We teach ourselves new muscle memory and response.

[bernhard]

This is exactly how my teacher describe it to me in the beginning. Especially when we started with scales.  I solved the tension problem just like that, starting with large circular motions, and slowly making those motions inperceptible.  As Bernhard said, it's very easy to demonstrate, very difficult to describe in writing.

-Paul

I am starting to think that maybe I am your teacher . (Except that I don’t live in the U.S. and I do not have links with a church with 3 grand pianos )

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