Schumann : Kinderscenen; The Poet

[m1469]

Just recorded this about half an hour ago for the purpose of our chat about the Kinderscenen. 

I used my minidisc recorder, the microphone that came with and it was set about 8 feet away.  I am playing on a Kawai medium grand.

I am reading form a Schirmer edition and have never heard a recording of this piece. 

Critiques are welcome.


m1469 

[palika dunno]

mh....how old are you?

[m1469]

mh....how old are you?

Well, if your question has to do with my interpretation, then I will leave the answer to your question up to you, since it seems you must have an opinion regarding it (which I encourage you to, please, more directly express).  Otherwise, I don't care to answer.


m1469

[asyncopated]

Hi,

After listening to this, I asked my teacher to teach me this piece and she agreed!  I think the notes will be fine, but before diving in, I'm trying to work on interpretation --  i think that musicality will be a big challenge here.  Do you have any suggestions?

Love your playing!

al.

[iumonito]

What a great piece of art, wouldn't you agree?

This is the equivalent of "and they lived happily ever after."

The next to last two chords are a reference to Beethoven's 4th piano concerto.  If you have not become familiar with that piece, I would recommend it.  Once you do, it is possible that playing this with rather flat fingers, with lots of finger-print area on the keys, and with very relaxed, just gravity, slow attack arms, will make the sound warmer and more like a thick string orchestra texture (more violas and cellos please).

The motive in measure 7 and similar may be a reference to Clara.  It reminds me of the motto on which Davidsbundlertanze, Op. 6 is built.

For the recitative, I would suggest using the una corda pedal.  Here Schumann is beyond reality and reason.  We should go there too.  One of the references is to Aufschwung, from Op. 12, the other perhaps to Eusebius (one of Schumann's alter egos) from Op. 9.  I feel you play those turns as if it was a grupetto in a Haydn sonata, which while beautiful is probably not what is intended.  I prefer them much slowar, legato, and probably with some rubato, as if you were really savoring them and dreaming about something magical and wonderful.

Beautiful playing.  Make sure you post the rest of it! 

[gaer]

m1469,

Are you talking about the Bauer edition (Schirmer)?

Regardless, you might want to check the final chord. It sounds to me as though you have played a B octave instead of a 10th (G-B).

The main point is that the edition I have, Bauer, is very heavily edited as full of suggestions by Bauer that don't seem to be Schumann's and that are, for me, very misleading.

Another different and very interesting edition is by Palmer (Alfred company), and if you compare scores, the differences are striking. I found it useful to study both, since Bauer's ideas are incredibly musical but also misleading at times.

Please keep on with this set. It is wonderful music!

Gaer

[m1469]

What a great piece of art, wouldn't you agree?

This is the equivalent of "and they lived happily ever after."

The next to last two chords are a reference to Beethoven's 4th piano concerto.  If you have not become familiar with that piece, I would recommend it.  Once you do, it is possible that playing this with rather flat fingers, with lots of finger-print area on the keys, and with very relaxed, just gravity, slow attack arms, will make the sound warmer and more like a thick string orchestra texture (more violas and cellos please).

The motive in measure 7 and similar may be a reference to Clara.  It reminds me of the motto on which Davidsbundlertanze, Op. 6 is built.

For the recitative, I would suggest using the una corda pedal.  Here Schumann is beyond reality and reason.  We should go there too.  One of the references is to Aufschwung, from Op. 12, the other perhaps to Eusebius (one of Schumann's alter egos) from Op. 9.  I feel you play those turns as if it was a grupetto in a Haydn sonata, which while beautiful is probably not what is intended.  I prefer them much slowar, legato, and probably with some rubato, as if you were really savoring them and dreaming about something magical and wonderful.

Wow, thank you very much for this detailed response.  I have printed it off and I am going to be looking into the pieces you have suggested.

Make sure you post the rest of it! 

he he... 

m1469,

Are you talking about the Bauer edition (Schirmer)?

Regardless, you might want to check the final chord. It sounds to me as though you have played a B octave instead of a 10th (G-B).

The main point is that the edition I have, Bauer, is very heavily edited as full of suggestions by Bauer that don't seem to be Schumann's and that are, for me, very misleading.

Another different and very interesting edition is by Palmer (Alfred company), and if you compare scores, the differences are striking. I found it useful to study both, since Bauer's ideas are incredibly musical but also misleading at times.

Please keep on with this set. It is wonderful music!

Gaer

Thank you, Gaer.  Yes, I am talking about the Bauer edition.  I will definitely take a look at some others as I can find them.  And, you are correct about the last chord...    oooops.  I was wondering when somebody would bring that up... he he

Thank you both for the feedback 

m1469

[dreamplaying]

Dear m1469:

I found it  very metronomic, no direction in the long phrases. Please try to play more p, I felt a mp all the time.

 I think is a very dificult piece in terms of expression. Schumann is very delicated.

[gaer]

Dear m1469:

I found it  very metronomic, no direction in the long phrases. Please try to play more p, I felt a mp all the time.

 I think is a very dificult piece in terms of expression. Schumann is very delicated.

It is a simple piece as far as the notes go. Nothing to it. That's the problem. I have recorded this on THREE different occasions, and each time I've come away defeated.

It's terribly difficult to do something musically satisfying, and there are such fine recordings out there.

[asyncopated]

Thanks alot for you insights.

I too will look at the references that were mentioned!

If you don't mind spending sometime I would like to know more about some basic questions.

The title "The poet speaks" -- is Schumann refering to himself, who is the poet?  Or is this a more general reference meanig something more like "music speaks".

How is this piece connected with the rest of the cycle.  I've only played some of the other pieces in the cycle.  Of foreign Lands and Knight of the Hobby horse.  At the moment I'm learning Dreaming, Almost too serious and An Important event.  (Aiming to complete the cycle when I can manage the technique.)

If you have anymore references and recommendations I would love to hear them.

Thank you!

al.

[asyncopated]

Here Schumann is beyond reality and reason.  We should go there too.

Hi Iumonito,

Can you tell me more about this idea.  Why do you say that Schmann is beyond reality and reason?  In what sense is this the case? I.e. How does he get there? and how should we proceed to follow?

al.

[gaer]

I asked m1469 if I could post here. I just recorded this tonight. I have the whole set recorded, but I want to do the rest over again, because I have new ideas.

By the way, I'm linking to web space, and that means I can't keep the link permanent here.
 
(Poet)

Gary

[wzkit]

A good recording of this piece would be by Cortot on the Art of Piano DVD. Really poetic, and he really knows how to play it slowly yet without sounding static.

[m1469]

I asked m1469 if I could post here. I just recorded this tonight. I have the whole set recorded, but I want to do the rest over again, because I have new ideas.

By the way, I'm linking to web space, and that means I can't keep the link permanent here. How do the rest of you keep things available for months?

https://gaer.keltaria.com/

(Poet)

Gary

I am so happy you posted this, gaer !  This was exactly the type of thing I had hoped to accomplish in the first place by starting this project, having several of us post recordings that we could compare and talk about.  I appreciate everybody's comments and questions prior to this, too.   But, I am particularly fond of having heard somebody else's ideas in the actual form of it all.  It helps me to clarify some of what I was trying to do in my recording.  I will probably be able to respond a little clearer on some things now, and to your ideas, gaer, but not right now.


Now, as far as keeping the file here, I am assuming that for some reason you cannot just use the audition room strategy ?  Uploading your mp3 onto your post ?  If that is true, and you want to make your file more permanent, which I would love for you to keep it here, you can upload your file here and then provide the link to it, just like you did with the one you have.

https://www.putfile.com/


Thank you very much, gaer, it's beautiful !  And I would like to encourage anybody else who might be willing to post your own recording as well.


I'll be back 


m1469

[iumonito]

Hi Iumonito,

Can you tell me more about this idea.  Why do you say that Schmann is beyond reality and reason?  In what sense is this the case? I.e. How does he get there? and how should we proceed to follow?

al.

Al, I have to apologize, as I feel ill equipped for the task you ask of me.  I'll try my best, but bare in mind that the tao you one can describe is not the tao.

Schumann, perhaps as the result of syphilis, or for some other reason, suffered severe mental problems, including schizophrenia.  I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I believe one symptom is that the person may hear voices and allucinate quite dramatically.  You have to wonder what sounds Schumann was hearing in his head.

The fantastic is quite an important concept in German (and Austrian) romanticism.  Becoming familiar with E.T.A. Hoffmann, Novalis and Chamisso (even the Walpurgis section of Goethe's Faust) would serve you well, but the gist of it is a fascination with the supernatural, magical, the seemingly impossible.

Schumann was quite adept to this literature, and I think in this particular passage what Schumann had in mind was not something that you can really grasp in rational terms.  Alas, unless you are Gertrude Stein, language likes reason a lot.  Music on the other hand, is quite free from it, so that even very intelligent music (for example Bach, or even Schumann's Kinderszenen or Carnaval) still maintains an aura of inexplicability.  One needs not know German to become happy upon hearing Beethoven's Ode to Joy.

The juxtaposition (or perhaps concatenation) of musical references here suggests to me the type of free-flowing thought association that did not arrive in literature until perhaps James Joyce.

In other words, one should not play this as if it was a regular four-measure phrase in one of Mozart's less intricate (albeit no less beautiful) passages.

 

[m1469]

Al, I have to apologize, as I feel ill equipped for the task you ask of me.  I'll try my best, but bare in mind that the tao you one can describe is not the tao.

Schumann, perhaps as the result of syphilis, or for some other reason, suffered severe mental problems, including schizophrenia.  I know nothing about schizophrenia, but I believe one symptom is that the person may hear voices and allucinate quite dramatically.  You have to wonder what sounds Schumann was hearing in his head.

The fantastic is quite an important concept in German (and Austrian) romanticism.  Becoming familiar with E.T.A. Hoffmann, Novalis and Chamisso (even the Walpurgis section of Goethe's Faust) would serve you well, but the gist of it is a fascination with the supernatural, magical, the seemingly impossible.

Schumann was quite adept to this literature, and I think in this particular passage what Schumann had in mind was not something that you can really grasp in rational terms.  Alas, unless you are Gertrude Stein, language likes reason a lot.  Music on the other hand, is quite free from it, so that even very intelligent music (for example Bach, or even Schumann's Kinderszenen or Carnaval) still maintains an aura of inexplicability.  One needs not know German to become happy upon hearing Beethoven's Ode to Joy.

The juxtaposition (or perhaps concatenation) of musical references here suggests to me the type of free-flowing thought association that did not arrive in literature until perhaps James Joyce.

In other words, one should not play this as if it was a regular four-measure phrase in one of Mozart's less intricate (albeit no less beautiful) passages.

 

iumonito, wow.  Okay.  This is how I am feeling right now :

I am just reading about Schumann, as I have mentioned throughout some threads in the forum, and have read some about his favorite or most influential authors.  This is helpful to know.... but, I am overwhelmed.  I don't know hardly any of this stuff that you mentioned in and of themselves.... 

Schumann was quite adept to this literature, and I think in this particular passage what Schumann had in mind was not something that you can really grasp in rational terms.  Alas, unless you are Gertrude Stein, language likes reason a lot.  Music on the other hand, is quite free from it, so that even very intelligent music (for example Bach, or even Schumann's Kinderszenen or Carnaval) still maintains an aura of inexplicability.  One needs not know German to become happy upon hearing Beethoven's Ode to Joy.

The juxtaposition (or perhaps concatenation) of musical references here suggests to me the type of free-flowing thought association that did not arrive in literature until perhaps James Joyce.

In other words, one should not play this as if it was a regular four-measure phrase in one of Mozart's less intricate (albeit no less beautiful) passages.

This seems incredibly insightful...  but, I am feeling frustrated as I don't know where to start or finish now.  I want to become familiar with all of these influences... and all of these things you have mentioned... but... I feel like I don't know what to do  :-


Anyway, I thank you very much for what you have added to this thread.  This set of pieces, and The Poet in particular are taking on yet another completely deeper meaning to me now.


*wanders around ... somewhat aimlessly... hopes to wind up somewhere*


m1469

[gaer]

Thank you, Gaer.  Yes, I am talking about the Bauer edition.  I will definitely take a look at some others as I can find them.  And, you are correct about the last chord...    oooops.  I was wondering when somebody would bring that up... he he

Bauer does some REALLY strange things, actually re-writing parts (changing the notation), and he drastically changes some dynamics. It's a very personal view, and I'm sure it worked great for him!

As for wrong notes, I can't tell you how many sharp musicians have caught errors in my work. Since I have not had a lesson in about 25 years—I'm too busy teaching—I make some basic reading mistakes, and people say, "Do you know you are playing X note in X measure?" So I get out the score and fix things. Thanks for the link for saving files. I'm going to try it.

Gary


m1469

[asyncopated]

iumonito, thanks alot. 

I will have to slow digest what you have just said.  I still have a number of questions, but perhaps time and not logic will solve these.

I am not acquainted with german literature of that period.  I guess I ought to start.

Alas, unless you are Gertrude Stein, language likes reason a lot. Music on the other hand, is quite free from it, so that even very intelligent music (for example Bach, or even Schumann's Kinderszenen or Carnaval) still maintains an aura of inexplicability. One needs not know German to become happy upon hearing Beethoven's Ode to Joy.

This is an interesting statement, although I'm not sure I agree with it completely.  Just a quick comment on why --  music does like reason also, but reason in what is perhaps a more abstract form than in langugue.  As such, it is less accessible.  Nevertheless, as you have pointed out clearly, it provokes more often than not an intuitive reaction, one that is usually sincere.

I have attempted Joyce once.  It is not to be triffled with, I am beginning to understand what you mean by schizophrenia. 

I know that this may sound scandalous in light of the conversation.  Also, I am aware that that the way that one can describe is not the way.  Nevertheless, I think studying aspects of structure and technique will point me towards it.  I'm looking at the structure of the bar (or two) you are speaking of.  (I am using the henle urtext edition.)  There seems to me at first sight an underlying current of triplets, with a similar motif echoed three times (sorry I don't have my score with me, I'm at work -- I will correct myself if it is wrong.) In both the right and left hands.  Interspersed are some large font notes (no idea what they mean) and what I may have misconstrued as ornaments ( the appogiatura and the 4 notes following that I interpret as an real accaciatura which has a different function from the triplets mentioned earlier. )   What I am trying to say, despite the freedom, there is underlying structure (or I think there is) of triplets and one needs to merge the two.  Is this a good viewpoint to have or complete bull?

m1469 --

I think perhaps you are wondering because you are using a wrong or faulty compass.  The only direction you should be worried about -- if worry is the right word -- is improving.  Do what you can.  Schumann's music as with all the other greats is infinitely deep -- there is always more you can do and learn. 

I know this does not sound too encouraging, but it is meant to be.   

al.

[gaer]

For the recitative, I would suggest using the una corda pedal. 

The problem here is Bauer, who marks it mf with a crescendo and indicates to increase from there. I would recommend starting with the soft pedal (una corda), easing it off at the A whole note, then sneaking it back down, ending in a whisper.

Bauer, in measure 3 and elsewhere, rewrites the music, showing a quarter note A tied to another A at the beginning of a 5 note tuplet. This makes small notes, written with no definite time, shown to be very strictly counted.

I've tried to be kind, but this kind of thing is really inexcusable. If you use his edition, you are totally mislead.

So it's quite natural that m1469 might be thinking in a way too structured, since the score she is reading is horribly misleading!

But I agree with your ideas. This must be very free, and it has to have the sound of something that is almost improvised. Schumann's music (in my opinion) is always much more than it appears.

Gary

[m1469]

m1469 --

I think perhaps you are wondering because you are using a wrong or faulty compass.  The only direction you should be worried about -- if worry is the right word -- is improving.  Do what you can.  Schumann's music as with all the other greats is infinitely deep -- there is always more you can do and learn. 

I know this does not sound too encouraging, but it is meant to be.   

al.

Yeah, okay.  You're right.  I'll change now

The problem here is Bauer, who marks it mf with a crescendo and indicates to increase from there. I would recommend starting with the soft pedal (una corda), easing it off at the A whole note, then sneaking it back down, ending in a whisper.

Bauer, in measure 3 and elsewhere, rewrites the music, showing a quarter note A tied to another A at the beginning of a 5 note tuplet. This makes small notes, written with no definite time, shown to be very strictly counted.

I've tried to be kind, but this kind of thing is really inexcusable. If you use his edition, you are totally mislead.

So it's quite natural that m1469 might be thinking in a way too structured, since the score she is reading is horribly misleading!

But I agree with your ideas. This must be very free, and it has to have the sound of something that is almost improvised. Schumann's music (in my opinion) is always much more than it appears.

Gary

Yes, this is exactly right, Gaer.  I guess I really need to find another edition, I will try to get my hands on a palmer.

Thanks, I hope this thread lives on and on....


m1469

[iumonito]

What I am trying to say, despite the freedom, there is underlying structure (or I think there is) of triplets and one needs to merge the two.  Is this a good viewpoint to have or complete bull?

I take for granted one would play the right notes and rhythm.  The invisible, the emotional, the trascendental, the magical...this is what I am interested in.  Wheth it is in the minor mode or the phrygyan, or whether it is A dinimished of Eb diminished, or that this is in ABA form, of itself, interests me little.

Naturaly there is structure, and it is very interesting.  I think of Kinderszenen as a themes and variations on three themes, disguised as a suite, but really a fairy tale with several chapters.  The structure, though, is just one aspect, and for me not the most important aspect, of the piece.

BTW, m1469, nothing wrong with feeling confused or overwhelmed.  Crisis is part of the creative process, just keep the fire going: something is cooking.  If you get very frustrated, get yourself a copy of Rollo Mai's The Courage to Create.  It is short and very inspiring.

You got me motivated now.  I will try to practice it a bit and post my humble attempts at Op. 15 in a couple of weeks.   

Cheers!

[gaer]

I take for granted one would play the right notes and rhythm.  The invisible, the emotional, the trascendental, the magical...this is what I am interested in.  Wheth it is in the minor mode or the phrygyan, or whether it is A dinimished of Eb diminished, or that this is in ABA form, of itself, interests me little.

Naturaly there is structure, and it is very interesting.  I think of Kinderszenen as a themes and variations on three themes, disguised as a suite, but really a fairy tale with several chapters.  The structure, though, is just one aspect, and for me not the most important aspect, of the piece.

From a purely technical standpoint (addressing all problems as technique, voicing, balance, rubata, and so on), one thing that makes these pieces difficult is that there is so much repeating, and it's a major challenge to find a way to stay true to what you feel is the spirit of each piece and find a way to vary things enough to make them interesting without distorting the music.

One small point: It is Kinderscenen, not Kinderszenen. If you have a strong German background, this will bother you (since it is "Szene"), but this is another example of a non-German "c" showing up in older titles (as in "Das Wohltempierte Clavier", which is often misspelled as "Klavier", when "Clavier" is clearly Bach's spelling.)

Gary

[iumonito]

Thanks, Gary,

I have misspelled that all my life.  It does feel a little older with the c.

Do you have feelings about the translation Scenes from Childhood?  I like better "children's scenes," which give me more a sense that they are for children, not about children.

[gaer]

Thanks, Gary,

I have misspelled that all my life.  It does feel a little older with the c.

I had to check it myself. It also looks very strange with "c".

Do you have feelings about the translation Scenes from Childhood?  I like better "children's scenes," which give me more a sense that they are for children, not about children.

The big problem is that "Kinder" is not "childhood". So I agree with you. Either:

Scenes of Children
Children's Scenes

The problem is that it's rather clunky in English. But the problem is that the title actually suggests that we are seeing "scenes" of children as they do various things, fall asleep, playing, pleading or crying, and so on.

Even the first "Scene", "Von fremden Ländern und Menschen", to me is more about:

"Of Foreign/Far-Away Lands and People(s)"

Here the problem is that "fremd" carries a double meaning, since so often people in other places seem "strange" because they are different.

(But I don't like the English translation "strange", because it is too limiting.)

Thoughts?

Gaer

[m1469]

You got me motivated now. I will try to practice it a bit and post my humble attempts at Op. 15 in a couple of weeks.

Cheers!

Oh, please do ! 

The problem is that it's rather clunky in English. But the problem is that the title actually suggests that we are seeing "scenes" of children as they do various things, fall asleep, playing, pleading or crying, and so on.

Thoughts?

Gaer

I'm sorry gaer, perhaps you are talking strictly about the language and its translation here, which I could not offer too much help with.   But along with that, I cannot help myself in bringing up more of what we touched on in our chat, regarding title and such.

What we discussed in our chat, was regarding the title(s) and what it could be referring to, as well as how much influence it may have on interpretation and then how much freedom a performer (then an artist of any sort) may have.  Part of that latter aspect came about from me having brought up this website here :

https://www.nathankramer.com/schumann/gallery/default.htm

To be honest, I don't really "get" those artworks and their relations to the set of pieces we are discussing, but to be fair, I have not really spent much time trying to solve that particular problem... but, the point regarding title(s) also revolved around whether or not Schumann had titled each piece *post* composition, or before.  Then it led into further discussion regarding "the" perspective we are coming from when interpreting these pieces.  Are we looking back to childhood with an adult's perspective ?  Recalling feelings and events and so on of a perhaps specific time or event, but as adults knowing more than we did then.

To me, this all relates the translation of the overall title.  I don't know enough about the set yet to speak with any authority on the subject, but I do know that Robert recommended to Clara to play these pieces.  So, I know they are meant for adults.  And, I would suspect that they are then more along the lines of recollections of childhood from the perspective of an adult-child.  So, while I think it is possible that they are specific "scenes", I personally think they are multi-layered in dealing with these scenes.  I think there are multiple perspectives on the event occuring simultaneously... and probably I will develop my ideas more as my study continues.

Anyway, is this at all along the lines of what you were bringing up ?  And if not, does anybody want to talk about it with little old me ? he he.


m1469


ps-  I am LOVING this topic and thread (thanks for being involved)

[gaer]

I'm sorry gaer, perhaps you are talking strictly about the language and its translation here, which I could not offer too much help with.

Actually, I was being specific about the meaning of the language itself, not commenting about anything more.

I don't know enough about the set yet to speak with any authority on the subject, but I do know that Robert recommended to Clara to play these pieces.  So, I know they are meant for adults.

This is what I have also always heard.

And, I would suspect that they are then more along the lines of recollections of childhood from the perspective of an adult-child.

This I would agree with strongly. The pieces are not representative of a child's experiences, as a child. For one thing, the music is much too subtle.

So, while I think it is possible that they are specific "scenes", I personally think they are multi-layered in dealing with these scenes.  I think there are multiple perspectives on the event occuring simultaneously... and probably I will develop my ideas more as my study continues.

I rely more heavily on what I hear than what I read (text, descriptions, etc.). I don't have recordings of the "Kinderscenen", and for the moment I'm glad I don't, because I want to think through them very carefully and get an initial recording uninfluenced by other people. However, once I've done that, I will undoubtedly want to listen to other people, and I'm sure I will find countless places where I have "missed the boat". Still, there is always room for many, many interpretations of great music, so I would expect to be "convinced", on different occasions, by very different ideas.

My only point was that Bauer meddled with the notation and markings without giving any indication that he has done so. I think such changes should be notated either as footnotes or suggestions above the original.

Gary