Anyone interested ?

[keyofc]

Would anyone be interested in selected one piece of music that we as a group could go through together and come up with ways to help teach it and perhaps, we would be learning it as well together?

This way we could address all the possible problems and solutions to one piece.  If anyone is interested, please let me know.
keyof c

[m1469]

Hi keyofc,

I am interested and certainly appreciate your spirit in wishing to use a resource like the forum to learn in this way.  My only problem is that I am not sure that I actually "teach" pieces...   at least not in a way that I would do it the same way each time.  In other words, I don't think I could come up with an actual "method" to learning a specific piece, unless I had an actual student with whom I was working with, having specific issues at the time.  It seems kinda like trying to practice technique separately from a specific piece of music.

This is mainly because, every student is dealing with individual issues at different times, and although they might play the same piece as somebody else, the issues they are dealing with as "difficult" in that piece will vary.  So, I would address things differently with each student.

So, I am interested in this project, but I might just observe until/unless I feel I actually have something to add.  Maybe I am just along to do a whole lot of learning, at the moment... that would be nice too

Cheers,
m1469 

[lostinidlewonder]

This way we could address all the possible problems and solutions to one piece.

It would be nice to be able to write in words an all encompassing solution as to play a piece, but unfortunately it is impossible. As m1469 has pointed out a lot of different problems face people when learning a piece, and might I add that some can draw from more playing experience than others to deal with these problems.

Drawing from experience happens constantly when an effective student studies new music. A good student is a pattern finder, can sniff out procedure at the keyboard that they have done before and they use their experience as a catalyst to work out their new music as fast as possible. This is very hard to explain in words, to say to someone, study these pieces before you try this piece because you should draw experience from this to help you here. There is not a singular one true pathway through music, we all grow musically with different combinations of pieces at different periods of our life. So it becomes very tough to tell a student where to find their experience from when you have no idea what music they have actually played before. This is why a good teacher knows what their students can play and can highlight procedure that the student might miss.

Fingering is also a big issue since you cannot simplify to one ultimate fingering. We have to question the comfort of our hand, and all hands come in different shapes and sizes, so this issue is impossible to deal with. Perhaps we could come up with 10 different fingerings for an entire piece but still it would be useless, in the end it would be too confusing trying to direct people as to which one they should choose. To the more advanced pianist it might be of some interest to experiment with different fingering to "feel" the difference and make judgement as to what is more comfortable (but only if they have time to waste) otherwise it is too confusing for the learning student.

Expression of the music also cannot be written in words but is demonstrated. When I listen to my students who play a section without enough anything I stop them and highlight what I am hearing, even if it is in a melodramatic and over emphasised way. Where I stop is always different and trying to make the student actually HEAR themselves playing differently can be a task sometimes which I often have to solve without any spoken words but by constantly playing for them and asking them to reproduce until they admit there is something there they can hear. If you reduce this type of learning into words you destroy the value of your ear-to-hand learning.

[keyofc]

Thanks for your post m1469,
I guess we need to wait and see if a few would be interested.
I think when people dive into something - they all learn a lot and it would be a lot of fun too,
keyofc

[keyofc]

lostinwonder,
I believe there are ways of  expressing through words what a person should do with their fingers and how to use technique.   If not, how do you write in their practice books ?  Since I don't believe either that there is one all encompassing way to teach a piece either - that's why I think it would be great to hear others input

I have a book on How to Play the Beethoven Sonatas, by Taub - he brings all of his experience and insight - and he's studied them all his life.  He addresses a lot of technical aspects.  I'm sure there are other pianists that could add additional insight nevertheless. 

As a teacher, I like to  talk to other pianists and hear how they tackled a challenging passage.    We all have blind spots and we all have a lot to offer.

[m1469]

Since I don't believe either that there is one all encompassing way to teach a piece either - that's why I think it would be great to hear others input

It's not just that there is not one all encompassing way to teach a piece, it is that there are infinite ways to teach a piece.  There are as many ways as there are individuals in the world, and with each individual, there are infinite ways that are still unique to the individual.  That's because as you said, "we all have blind spots", so to speak.  And, those "blind spots" will change as we progress... the problems we face will always challenge our current "level" of being.

And, we don't actually know what the exact challenges are until we know who is going to be learning the piece, since each person has his/her own unique "blind spots".  So, as far as I can see at this point, whatever piece we would look at, we would each have to have somebody in mind, and we would have to have them actually going through the process of learning it for us to discover what is the exact path they take (not that there cannot be guidence all along the way).

In this case, I would be willing to have myself or one of my students in mind, and either learn the piece myself, or have one of my students learn the piece.  But, it also depends on what the piece is...


m1469

[tac-tics]

Although, obviously, no one will ever write an "end-all" method to learning new music, I think it would be of great value to many people on the forum if someone where to write such an article.

Yes, there might be an "infinite" number of ways to teach something and everyone encounters their own unique problems during learning, but theoretical contexts aside, it's very likely that there will be a handful of problems that nearly every student will run into.

And even if you can't explain in words the subtle technicalities of learning a new piece, you can easily explain your mindset. What goes through your head when beginning a new piece? What struggles have you had with various pieces and how do you deal with them? If you get stuck or it seems like the piece is too difficult for your current abilities, what action do you take?

At the very least, readers will get to see the piano from another person's perspective. And how can you argue that as a bad thing ;-)

[johnk]

I think this is a great idea, and instead of writing about the pros and cons of doing it, I suggest we jump right in with the 3rd movement of the Moonlight sonata. I have started practicing this again after a decade or two, and am finding lots of tricks that I can use to improve technical accuracy, speed and strength etc. Not so much on how to teach it, except to suggest the techniques i am using.

For the jump up in LH of bar 9 for example, take the G#,B# with 3 and 1, with hand tilted to the left so that the 3rd finger makes an angle with the black key. This gives better reliability of striking it than using 4 or 5. Then slide 4 onto the G# as the upper LH notes are played with 11211(slide onto the E). Continuing on, slide 5 on to the G#.

In the RH of the following bar, avoid 4th finger on the F# because this will limit the tempo. Use 3 on F# and thumb on E to make the rotary hand movement easier, with 5 on all the top G#s.

It is so nice to read it in Express Stave too!!

Cheers, John

[chopinfan_22]

I'd be interested, even though I don't teach. I probably would't put my input on a piece that I am not currently learning, but I'd keep the information you guys have on other pieces for future reference.

[keyofc]

m1469, good points - and I am sure we are all at different levels - I would definitely want to learn the piece while doing it.

Tactics - No pun intended - yes, we would learn others tactics   I love hearing others perspectives -  and it also helps in understanding how different students may view a challenging piece. 

John - I'd be willing to go with Moonlight SOnata third movement - it is not a piece that I have learned yet - how about you, m1469?  Do you already know this one as well as you want to?  I have always tended to like slow pieces and now I realize that I haven't really developed the muscles for fast playing - but would love to take this on.

[m1469]

Yes, okay, I'm in (and have never learned this before) .  But, I have several projects in the works floating around this forum... (and in my life) and I am really JONZING to be getting some stuff "done" !!  So, I am hoping this is not going to be another project that just floats around with me.  It might be though  :-.


Anyway, I do plan on finishing everything I start, it might just take me a little longer than I initially suspect it will (which is sometimes a year later).


But, okay !!  I am going to start right this very minute



m1469

[lostinidlewonder]

If someone asks me how to play this piece or that I would first question a few things and get answers. What are the particular "difficult" sections of the piece, is your technique and musical mind at a level to deal with it? What is you control of general procedure (chord/arpeggio/scale) control in these pieces like? Is your fingering balanced throughout this piece, where does it fail? What is their size of your hands since some fingerings might be impossible if an octave cannot be stretched and note combinations inbetween comfortably played.

So if we start writing analysis of a piece it would be way too hard to describe in words for a beginner, but for the more experienced saying things like, keeping your hand balanced while playing a passage makes perfect sense. Experienced pianists know that when we feel discomfort we will adversly effect the sound production. Control/Balance is always something we strive for in our playing so it might be useful to highlight points of control in the score. Which finger controls an unmoving point perhaps, which fingers act as the centre of the hand while the group of notes are played etc.

There is no way words are going to improve your control and comfort of playing without you actually first making assessments on your comfort while playing. Once we understand what it means to play something with balance and control then we strive to achieve this for everything. This balance and control is a felt experience and we can feel it immediately, I really don't believe it can learnt through written word, it needs to be personally experimented upon and observed. But highlighting in the score which notes aid our control is very important and I think would be helpful.

There is so much to be said though for any piece. Ideas of expression for instance could ramble on forever and could seek examples for hundreds of different scores to support the argument. The complexity could get insane. So what will you actually target? Fingering, Observation of pattern, movement groups (when the hand has to move and control a new group of notes), expression *shudder*? Little things which you observed that finally made the passage make sense to you would be nice. But these things are often very personal and don't help other people very much.

[keyofc]

Hi,
I do not know this piece either, and have always wanted to learn it, but never spent
the time.  I would love to start - and I will start this weekend.  I think it will be fun work
to learn it with others who are learning it at the same time.

I'm excited!

I know what you mean - m1469 - about it taking time.  We all have our own goals
and to sneak another one in of this kind will be demanding.  For myself, I'm more interested in learning it well with others committed to helping each other be better pianists and teachers.

So, maybe the first question could be after looking it over at length, what is your plan of attack in learning it?

key of c

[m1469]

My first step was numbering all of the measures.  That's what I did exactly after my last post.   I got a total of 203, let me know if you get something different.

Next, I am going to go through and identify the primary keys that the piece operates in.  That is my next step, so after I do that, I will check in and go from there.


m1469 

[keyofc]

m1469,
Sorry for posting so late - life happens
But so must music!
I like your idea about numbering the measures, so I decided to do that too.
After examing it a little, my plan is to practice the C# and G# minor arpeggios,
each day.  My first goal is completing it RH only up to measure 21, since this is where the arpeggios change from RH to LH. (for piano)
For study, I will identify chords up to measure 21 only for now and work on speed on my arpeggios alone at first.
This is a really challenging piece - but would be great to learn.  I have always played slower songs, so the tempo is the most challenging aspect of the piece for me.
see you later!
keyofC

I hope that John is still on board with us.

[m1469]

Sounds good 

[johnk]

Just tuned in to this post. Glad to know you are taking up my suggestion. m1469's first step of counting the measures made me laugh, till I realised that we cant discuss much without first doing this. (Bit slow here!) But I will simply get Finale to put them in.

I am finding more little tricks all the time. Parts i thought I could play, when I really looked and listened, I was fudging. So I have started slowing sections down and looking at fingering and keyboard ergonomics.

As an example, the opening 2 bars:

For the LH staccato notes i use 3 and 1 for the 1st bar and change to 2 and 5 in the 2nd. This feels more secure because 3rd finger is playing the C# at a slight angle across the key so it is less likely to slip off for the opening accent.

The RH broken chords make you have to decide on using 3 or 4 for the different inversions. I tend to find i use 3 on a black key but 4 on the white (E). This makes sense if you consider that when playing the 1st inversion of C# minor (E, G#, C#, E), you are already turning your hand to the right ready for thumb on the G#, so the 3rd finger on C# is more natural than the expected 4th for this inversion. And using 4 on the E means the finger is attacking the key more cleanly from within the EF gap. 3rd finger would mean 'scraping' over the top of the D#.

The Alberti accompaniment figures on the black keys for the 2nd subject (G# minor) can be awkward.  I had been playing them with any old fingering, but now feel I need to decide on the best for each different chord pattern. Keep it light and even with a slight rotary action. I think 4 is better than 5 for the bottom note when it is a black key.

This is hard work! How are others going on it?

Cheers, JohnK


 

[keyofc]

Thanks John - I"m going to print your post out and read it at the piano.  Having a secure and consistent fingering with these arpeggios is probably haf the battle.

Is Tac-tics and Chopin fan still with us?  Trying to get an idea of how many  people are actually playing the movement with us.
 -key of c

[tac-tics]

Is Tac-tics and Chopin fan still with us?  Trying to get an idea of how many  people are actually playing the movement with us.

I think this piece is probably above my current abilities, but I'd still be up for... proofreading or something? I could always give it a shot, but I'm still pretty beginneresque.

[johnk]

Tac-tics, what do you mean by proofreading, exactly ?? I have, btw, checked m1469's bar count and it agrees with mine, if the 1st time bar at the end of the exposition is counted as well as the 2nd time bar. (In performance I would not do this repeat, since the movement is long enough without it.)

JohnK

[keyofc]

Hi there,
I just wondered if anyone is still working on this with me.  I am slow since I'm working on other things as most of you  are too, I'm sure.  It is not an easy piece, but I think it's worth learning.
By identifying the chords and inversions they are a lot easier to play.  I have noticed keeping my fingers straighter helps me play the chords faster. 

[chopinfan_22]

I'm back. What piece are we working on?

[keyofc]

Moonlight Sonata, movement 3

[aaron_ginn]

Is this project still active?  It doesn't look like it.  Anyway...

I'm just learning to play the piano.  I'm 36 and have been playing for about four months.  The two pieces I've been working on are the Moonlight Sonata and Maple Leaf Rag by Scott Joplin.  I can play the first movement fairly well (although I still flub in places), have skipped the second for the time being, and am working on the third.  I've spent about 50% of my time focused on the two-handed ascending/descending arpeggios at the end since I've heard that this is the most difficult passage in the movement for most people.  I've spent about 20 hours playing this passage HS.  Surprisingly, my left hand is actually pretty good here.  I think it's because it's easier for me to play an arpeggio with the thumb first, and most of the arpeggios in this passage are descending (thumb first for LH).

Last night I finally tried to play this section HT and was very pleased with the results.  Of course my tempo is very slow but I was actually able to play all the notes without too many flubs.  Another 20 hours of practice on this section and I think I'll be playing it at least at allegro speed.

[penguinlover]

I just found this thread, and I was wondering if it was still active also.  I have played this piece in college, but that was a long time ago.  I don't think I could play it now, at least to where anyone would want to listen (even me!)  I would be glad to work along with you all.

[leucippus]

I've been eyeing this thread over for the past couple weeks.   I would like to start in on this piece myself.  I realize that it's way above my level but I think it would be cool to at least start in on it in some way.  It is a piece that I would like to learn eventually.

I have no idea where to begin.  What should I do?  Study the sheet music?  Start practicing the Qb# minor scale for a while? Look up the word arpeggios in my dictionary?  Learn how to spell Bachtoven correctly first?

No, … seriously I would like to start in on this piece but I'm not sure where to begin.  Can someone suggestion how I should approach this piece.

Assume that I'm a mythical creature from the deep backwoods known as "Big Finger".  An animal that would like to play the piano and has the agility of a humming bird, and the swiftness of a mongoose, but has the mentality of a retarded Neanderthal who has a bad head cold and is suffering from years of sexual frustration.

It'll be a challenge, I know, but you'll be doing your part toward introducing classical music into the Big Finger culture and keeping this rare species from becoming extinct.

[penguinlover]

1.  Get the music
2.  Learn the C#minor scales and arpeggios (learn what an arpeggio is first)
3.  Look through the music, the road map so to speak.
4.  Look for patterns, chords, and anything else of interest
5.  Start with measure #1.  Although one of my piano teachers said to always learn the last page first.  She said it was a mental thing, to work the piece backwards.  I don't know if I agree, I sure didn't to it on this piece.  But that last few measures would be fun to learn first, they are just the arpeggios.  Even at the first, I would start by playing the notes as full chords, then break them up.  I have heard that this helps with speed too.  I didn't learn it this way, but by looking at it now, that's what I would do.
6.  Have fun with it!
                           penguinlover

[leucippus]

1.  Get the music
2.  Learn the C#minor scales and arpeggios (learn what an arpeggio is first)
3.  Look through the music, the road map so to speak.
4.  Look for patterns, chords, and anything else of interest
5.  Start with measure #1. 
6.  Have fun with it!

Thanks for the quick response.  I love numbered lists too! 

I already have the sheet music so I'm 1/6 of the way done already.  Yippee! 

Owl start working on number 2 now and learn the C# minor scales.

I looked up the word "arppegios" and it says "rolled chords" I used to smoke homegrown vegetation so I'm pretty good at rolling. 

It won't be long now until I'm up to step 3.  That will put me 3/6 of the way through your plan.  That's really just 1/2 in disguise. 

Wow!  I'm just starting out and I feel like I'm half-way finished already. 

[penguinlover]

Your optimism is encouraging.  Keep it up, it is a long piece.  When you get stuck on pg. 2 or so, just remember how it felt to begin.  Each measure is new, so treat it as such.  I don't think that's what it meant by "rolled chords"  haha    Start with the first four measures.  That's what I am going to do, tomorrow.

[leucippus]

Your optimism is encouraging.  Keep it up, it is a long piece.  When you get stuck on pg. 2 or so, just remember how it felt to begin.  Each measure is new, so treat it as such. 

I have no problem taking things a few measures at a time, or even working on just one at a time.  As long as I can see any progress at all I'll keep plugging along.  I have no expectations of being able to play the whole piece anytime soon.  In fact, I have every expectation that it will take me several months to learn the whole piece.  But if I can hobble though some of the early arppegios and make them sound anything like it I'll be thrilled to death.  All that means is that a year from now I might actually be able to play it with some decent control (maybe)

I need to familiarize myself with the C# minor scales first (like you suggested) and then analyze the chords (or appegios) and then maybe I can actually start to roll up some chords. 

[penguinlover]

Sounds like you're on a roll (sorry, couldn't help that one)

[keyofc]

Hi everyone, Penguin and Leucipuss too,
I have to admit that I forgot about this project, but I really do want to do it.
Movement 3 is pretty difficult and I was going to work on it a few months ago when some things changed in the area of my music and I was needing to work on other unknown pieces.
I'm ready to begin again at this time.

One of the difficult parts about this piece is the speed!

I will look at it again and email anything I hope you will find helpful.
Does anyone here have tips on how to play fast?

[penguinlover]

I don't have the time right now to search, but I am sure I have read Bernhard's posts on speed.  There are many of them (that's an understatement).  Any, I need to dig this piece up again.  I played it in college, and promised my brother I would play it for him again next time I saw him.  Lucky for me, he lives far away, and we don't see each other.  That's not really lucky, because I would love to be around him more, but I haven't learned the piece well enough to play for him yet.  In fact, I had stopped for years now.  So now, I get the book out again.  It's all marked up, just like I left it. So, enjoy.  I remember it being terribly fun to play, especially the last two pages!  You know, I have never heard anyone play the entire three movements in one sitting.  I have played the second movement, but never heard anyone else play it.  It is really easy, and so totally different than the other two movements, and it is short!

[m1469]

Hi people .

I am going to have to remain an observer for this project.  As much as I would like to join in on things like this, I am having to make an executive decision on behalf of myself and stay very focused on some main goals in my life.

If you are interested in speed playing, you would probably like to take a look here :

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,8322.msg84686.html
(speed and muscle tension – 3 important components of speed playing)

Have fun ! 


m1469

[leucippus]

I have the music to this piece printed out and in my 3-ring binder.  I've given very feeble attempts to starting this piece in the past.  Very feeble attempts!  I know that it's way over my head, but I'd still like to give it a shot anyway just to see if I can make any progress with it at all.  If I can learn to play the first two measures at even ¼ speed fluently I'll be thrilled.

I think I can move from ¼ speed to about ½ speed fairly quickly after that. 

One of the difficult parts about this piece is the speed!

I'm not concerned at all about playing it at the correct speed yet.  Speed will come over time and I'm willing to wait that out.  I just need to get the correct cadence so there aren't any "speed walls" to knock over.  In other words, I can play it slow and still be using the fast-speed finger motion so that getting up to speed from there isn't going to require a whole change in my cadence (i.e. changing from a trot to a gallop).   I can learn it slow and still be in a cantor and not a trot.

So the speed issue doesn't concern me.  But as it is now, I just find the cadence extremely difficult to get with the fingerings they way they are.   My score has all the fingerings marked so I think I'll be alright there.  This is just really weird for me to play because I haven't yet played anything remotely like this.

My print out of the score has 18 pages each containing about 5 grand staffs.  If I can make any headway with this piece at all, by the time I make it through the whole 18 pages and have it all memorized I think the speed will start to be coming along too by then.  I have absolutely no clue how long it will take me to learn this piece, but to be perfectly honest about it I will be totally elated if I learn it by next spring, and I'll even be quite happy if it takes until next fall just to learn it even if it still isn't quite up to speed by then.

Keep in mind that I'm currently learning 30 other pieces simultaneously, so this is only 1/30 of my practice schedule!  But I'll still keep an eye on this thread for possible hints, and also to hopefully report my own progress as slow as it might be.

[penguinlover]

My score only has eight pages, with two additional lines.  There are seven grand staffs per page.  How in the world do you learn 30 pieces at a time?  I struggle with time to learn two.  This one will be three, and soon I will add another.  Maybe I am a bit slower than others, is 30 at once common?  If so, I am so far behind times!

Anyway, I am going to start with the RH, since the LH doesn't do much, and work it to measure eight.  Not much to be sure, but this time I will spend more time looking at my technique.  Speed won't be hard here, and neither will the memory.  Then I'll add the LH, big deal!

[leucippus]

Anyway, I am going to start with the RH, since the LH doesn't do much, and work it to measure eight.  Not much to be sure, but this time I will spend more time looking at my technique.  Speed won't be hard here, and neither will the memory.  Then I'll add the LH, big deal!

You make a very good point!  I've been trying to start it HT.   I mean, I normally start everything else HS, but because of the nature of this piece it was just a natural instinct to start it HT.  Hmmmm?  Maybe I can make some progress with it after all?

How in the world do you learn 30 pieces at a time?  I struggle with time to learn two.  This one will be three, and soon I will add another.  Maybe I am a bit slower than others, is 30 at once common?  If so, I am so far behind times!

I have no clue how many pieces people work on at one time.  I'm a self-learner, doing my own thing, so don't go by what I do.  I just find this to be the best method for me personally.  One reason is that I get bored easily if I only work on a couple things at a time.  The other reason is that I seem to make just as much progress working on many pieces as I do when I only work on a few.

I think the 30 pieces is a bit of an exaggeration though.  Maybe I should say more like 15 pieces.  Some of the pieces I'm working on are quite advanced and most of the "work" that I've been doing on them thus far has been entirely analytical without any actually keyboard time yet.  Also, some of the pieces that I'm working on I'm actually composing as I go, so I'm not sure if they really count.  However, since I am learning to play them as I compose them I include them as part of my overall practice schedule.   I have a list of everything I'm doing and it take 30 lines in a spreadsheet so that's where I come up with the 30 pieces.

Finally, I'm retired so my practice time is virtually unlimited for all intents and purposes.  I think back in the days when I was working I probably would have been quite happy to limit myself to learning 5 pieces at a time, or maybe even less.  If it's a large piece I'd work on sections in parallel and that would ultimately amount to being similar to working on several pieces at one time.

[penguinlover]

I do get a bit bored working on just a few pieces, but I just don't have the time to do more.  If I take on too much, I will never finish anything!  I have many projects like that, including piano pieces.  Right now, I have a bit more time due to my last child going to college, but I am still very busy.  I am currently reworking two pieces that I played a hundred years ago, and a new one that's almost done.  The bad part about the new piece is that I hate the middle section, so I don't practice it.  And I refuse to memorize it due to Chopin's crazy left hand chords that change every time he repeats himself!  Anyway, it felt good to do something new.

[aaron_ginn]

I'm glad to see there are others here who want to work through this with me!

As I stated, I've only been playing for 4-5 months, and I've been working on the 3rd movement of this sonata for a little more than two months.  I've been concentrating mostly on the end (a difficult series of two-handed ascending and descending arpeggios) since I've heard it's the most difficult part of the piece.  I'd guess I've spent about 25% of my practice time on this portion.  It's been very difficult to get my LH to play this passage up to speed, but it's finally starting to come around.  When I'm warmed up, I can probably play this passage just under a slow allegro speed with a few mistakes here and there.  It's just amazing to me what you can train your hands with repetition.  When I started playing this passage, I couldn't evn play a single C#m arpeggio at allegro speed.  Now I can play a series of four ascending and eight descending with both hands at a decent speed!  That's extremely encouraging to someone like me who couldn't even play a C#m chord six months ago.

I can also play the first eight measures at a decent allegro speed without many mistakes.  I'm now concentrating on working through the Alberti bass accompaniment in measures 21-32 and the RH in measure 35.  In measure 35, I am having a lot of trouble playing the E-D#-E-D#-E-C#-B-A#-G series of 16th notes.  I just simply can't get my fingers to do this rapidly enough.  I'm sure the answer is simply more practice (isn't that always the answer?).

Several posters on this forum have told me to put this work aside until I'm farther along as a pianist because I may get frustrated and eventually give it up entirely.  I don't think that's going to happen.  I simply look at how far I've come in a couple of months and I can see so much progress that it encourages me to keep going.

[penguinlover]

Well, I am amazed.  This is a huge thing to tackle after only playing for five months!  Were you an absolute beginner?  Could you read notes, and know the music signs, and theory already?  It is hard to believe that you would be at this level starting from knowing nothing.  Anyway, I am a firm believer that anyone can learn anything if they want to bad enough!  That's why I am trying the Grieg's Piano Concerto in A minor.  I know it is probably above me, but I love it too much NOT to play it. 

This movement is beautiful too.  I can't wait until I can play it as well as I used to.  Good luck, and happy practicing.  (I had a piano teacher once that had me start from the ending and work backwards.  Different, but your ending will always be the best part of the piece, and that's what people will remember - the end.)  It is a very fun piece to play.

[aaron_ginn]

Well, they say ignorance is bliss.  Maybe I just didn't know any better before I started playing it!

I'm prettty much a complete beginner when it comes to piano.  However, I've lived a pretty musical life.  I played cello and french horn and sang in honor choir in elementary school.  I sang in adult choir at church for several years and have played guitar for much of my life.  I know a little music theory (enough to know the difference between the tonic and dominant), and can read a score.  Admittedly, I have a much better ear for music than an eye for it.  While I don't have perfect pitch, I can sing certain notes on key by remembering what they sound like from certain works.  That's why I prefer to hear what a piece sounds like and then  work on playing it rather than just pick up a score and work through the written music.

So I'm a piano novice but not a musical novice.  I have no doubt this work will take me a long time to play, and even longer to play well.  But I'm not in any hurry.  Music is my hobby, not my livelihood.  As long as I can continue to make progress, I'll be happy.

[keyofc]

I'm amazed too!  How often do you practice, guinn?
I'm assuming you're taking lessons?
If so - what did you first start on?

[leucippus]

Several posters on this forum have told me to put this work aside until I'm farther along as a pianist because I may get frustrated and eventually give it up entirely.  I don't think that's going to happen.  I simply look at how far I've come in a couple of months and I can see so much progress that it encourages me to keep going.

I personally think that's poor advice.  I would never put anything aside if you enjoy it and are making progress on it.  Some people would have you playing things like isty-bitsy spider for years whilst you try to learn sight-reading to the point where you can just play the moonlight sonata from sight-reading it.

Yeah right.  Let them use their own philosophies and just be thankful they aren't your teacher!

I've learned that tackling pieces that are way over my head isn't nearly as difficult as it might seem.  You just need to have patience in the early going.  You just have to have extreme patience in the very early going, but once you get past that things start picking up much quicker.  I think most people are just too bent on "instant gratification" so they start with easier pieces. 

I've just recently discovered that I'm losing motor control of my fingers.  I may have to quit playing the piano altogether.  I've been trying to refine a very simple etude that I have been playing for a long time but I've actually been back-sliding with it.  Many people have just suggested that I get a teacher like as if that's going to miraculously take care of the problem.

I actually thought about getting teacher, and still might, but whilst I was thinking about getting one I thought about what a teacher might do.  Then I thought, if I were a teacher what would I ask the student to do?   Well, one of the first things I would ask them to do is to play the first exercises of Hanon.  Yes, that's right.  That's got to be the easiest piece in the world to play, if they can't play that fluently then why not start there to see what the problem is.

So I started playing Hanon again.  I had actually quit playing Hanon a while back because so many people keep saying that it's just a waist of time.   Well, lo and behold I can't play Hanon fluently anymore!  It’s not that I don’t know how it goes.  It’s that I can’t make my fingers play it smoothly.  I could before.  But now I can't.   I'm obviously losing motor control functions to my fingers.  This doesn't come as a shock to me as I'm already aware that I am having mental problems.  This is probably just another symptom of my mental problems. 

I'm practicing Hanon again, and I am making some progress to cleaning it up, but I just can't play it with the control that I used to have.  If I can't regain control of something as simple as Hanon, then I'm really wasting my time trying to begin something like the Moonlight Sonata because I'll never be able to control it either.   One good thing about Hanon is that it can certainly be used as a good sign of what's possible and what isn't.

If I go to a teacher now all I would require form them is to teach me how to play Hanon smoothly.  But I'm already kidding myself that a teacher could "teach" me to do that.  I already had the ability to do it before and I've lost it.  So I obviously already know how to do it.  I'm just losing the ability to precisely control my finger muscles.   I don't need a teacher, I need a doctor.

[aaron_ginn]

I'm amazed too!  How often do you practice, guinn?
I'm assuming you're taking lessons?
If so - what did you first start on?

Actually, I'm not taking lessons and I don't have a teacher.  I simply can't afford one right now.  I do have a friend who is a teacher who has offered to give me lessons.  I've been thinking of taking her up on the offer.  We'll see...

I try to practice every day for at least 30 minutes.  My wife and kids get on my case quite a bit (rightfully so I might add!) when it goes much longer.  There have been days when I've practiced for two or more hours though.  I just love to sit down and play.  I'd practice all day if I could.

I don't want to give the impression that I'm a prodigy or anything.  Really, my playing still isn't that impressive, but it's getting better.  I'm splitting time between the three very different pieces in my signature.  I can play about 80% of the Maple Leaf Rag pretty well although more slowly than it's written and with a few problem passages that I still need to work through.  I'm really trying to finish up the Bach Invention and start something new.

Mainly, I've been using Chang's book as a reference, but I mostly just try to take a measure at a time and play it over and over again until I get it right.  Then I move on.  Chang's book has been enlightening in that it emphasizes HS and tackling the most difficult passages first.  Those are two things that would not have been intuitively obvious to me otherwise.

Maybe I'll post some video of me playing the parts of this movement that I can play to some extent in the next few days.  I shudder to think what people here will say about my self-taught technique though!

[penguinlover]

leucippus,
   Maybe you should go see a doctor.  That may do more good than Hanon.

[leucippus]

leucippus,
   Maybe you should go see a doctor.  That may do more good than Hanon.

Yes, I'm going to see a doctor. Thank you.

[aaron_ginn]

Alright, I taped myself playing the beginning of this movement earlier today.  Measures 1-8 are pretty decent, after that it's quite a bit of hit and miss (mostly miss).  Still, I'm pleased with how far I've come on this in two months.  My goal is to be able to play the whole movement adequately (defined as playing all the right notes with relatively few mistakes at allegro tempo) within a year.  I think it's doable.  We'll see.  The video is here:

https://www.theginnfamily.net/piano/Moonlight_3_20061021.wmv

Someone else asked me what I had started with.  The very first piece I started working on was Moonlight, mvt 1.  After a week or so playing that, my wife asked me to play something not quite so depressing, so I started working on the Maple Leaf Rag.  Here's a video of me playing a portion of it on July 7 of this year after I had been working on it for a couple of weeks:

https://www.theginnfamily.net/piano/MapleLeafRag_20060708.wmv

Here's a video of me playing it this morning.  I still need to tackle the last part of the piece, but I've made pretty good progress in these three months despite some of my flubs here:

https://www.theginnfamily.net/piano/MapleLeafRag_20061021.wmv

I welcome all comments, criticisms, suggestions, but be warned.  If you tell me to play something easier, I will most likely ignore you!

[jazzyprof]

That is truly remarkable for only 5 months of piano playing!  Not bad for an electrical engineer:-).  A few comments...you might want to have a piano teacher at least check your technique to make sure you don't acquire bad habits or injure yourself.  On your first recording of the Maple Leaf Rag it seemed you were sitting too close to the piano.  Also the way your thumbs were sticking out in a somewhat tense way...and the way you sometimes raised your wrists kinda high.  Anyway, great job!!!

[leucippus]

I'm on dial-up so I only listened to the video of the Moonlight Sonata.   I'm impressed.  I think you're going to do just fine.

However, if I were in your position I'd do things just a little differently.   Mainly I would slow the whole thing down considerably and shoot for perfection in timing and flow rather than shooting for speed.

Some will say not to play slow and that it's best to get up to speed ASAP.   And there's a good reason for that philosophy, but ironically the reason has little to do with speed.   The idea is that if you play things slow in the beginning then you will hit a speed wall when you try to speed up.  But the reason for the speed wall comes from having to change cadence.  In other words if you learn something at a walk and practice it that way for a long time, but the real speed requires a gallop, then you can only push the walk so fast before you need to break into a cantor and that's where the speed wall comes into play.  You need to then relearn the whole thing over at a cantor.  It uses different muscle to cantor than to walk.

However, you already have the correct cadence.  Not to imply that you have perfect cadence.  But what I mean is that you are already playing the piece at a gallop.  You can slow it down and still be galloping.  Just as you can slow a horse down to a cantor without actually breaking into a trot. 

That's what I would do if I was in your current position.  I'd play it as slow as you possible can whilst still maintaining the motion and feel of a "gallop" at slow speed.  Then focus on smooth timing and hitting perfect notes.   Don't worry about the speed.  The speed will take care of itself if you continue to play at a cantor.   You won't hit any speed walls.  You're already there as far as the correct cadence goes.

However, if you press on to force the speed whilst playing sloppy timing and notes, then it will be extremely difficult to iron that out later.  Much better to tackle the smooth cadence and perfect notes early on and let the speed take care of itself.  And the speed will talk care of itself too.  Don't force the speed.  Focus on perfecting the flow of the cadence and on form.  Never hit any note just to whack it.  PLAY every SINGLE note METICULOUSLY and you're be GREAT!  Let the speed grow on you naturally.  Be patient with it.

[aaron_ginn]

That is truly remarkable for only 5 months of piano playing!  Not bad for an electrical engineer:-).  A few comments...you might want to have a piano teacher at least check your technique to make sure you don't acquire bad habits or injure yourself.  On your first recording of the Maple Leaf Rag it seemed you were sitting too close to the piano.  Also the way your thumbs were sticking out in a somewhat tense way...and the way you sometimes raised your wrists kinda high.  Anyway, great job!!!

Thanks.  I realized later that I had been sitting too close to the piano.  I've since tried to correct that.  I'm sitting in a much more comfortable position now.  I have thought of taking a few lessons to iron out my technique somewhat.  I'll take that under consideration.  I appreciate the comments.