The thread about nothing

[wishful thinker]

This thread is about absolutely nothing 

No religion, no piano playing, no washing up machines, no jogging, no nothing.

So this is one place that Pianistimo won't post.  Right? 

[ahinton]

This thread is about absolutely nothing 

No religion, no piano playing, no washing up machines, no jogging, no nothing.

So this is one place that Pianistimo won't post.  Right? 

I wouldn't put money on it!

But seriously - is the sole or principal object of this thread supposed to be a "pianistimo"-free thread? If so, you might like to tell us why you have been motivated to attempt to achieve this goal - unless, of course, you feel that, in so doing, you would be undermining the very nature of your thread by writing about "something"...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

There you see..already we have gone off topic    Is nothing sacred?

Pianistimo is a fine member of this forum (yeah a God(dess) methinks) and her ability to take us to places that we never knew existed is amazing 

But stop, we are just adding further danger that a subject will materialise; therefore I will shut up (or should that be down?) now 

 

[henrah]

                   

     
 
        

[wishful thinker]

Thank you Henrah, an excellent contibution 

[ahinton]

There you see..already we have gone off topic    Is nothing sacred?

Pianistimo is a fine member of this forum (yeah a God(dess) methinks) and her ability to take us to places that we never knew existed is amazing 

But stop, we are just adding further danger that a subject will materialise; therefore I will shut up (or should that be down?) now 

 

Your first post in this thread asked (genuinely or rhetorically) if the thread would be one to which "pianistimo" would not post, so my response thereto is surely not a digression from the content of the first message by the thread originator (i.e. you), even if that first post itself includes a question that may be deemed to be "off-topic", or at least partially so.

Your remark about "pianistimo" having the
ability to take us to places that we never knew existed
reminds me (and I am being serious here!) of the remark made by Cornish composer George Lloyd (1913-1998) about the purpose of music being to take the listener to places that he/she would not otherwise go. Whether "pianistimo" is any kind of "goddess" is clearly a matter of individual opinion.

You ask here
Is nothing sacred?
thereby adding still further to the risk that this thread will develop an actual topic; it is probably not unreasonable to suggest that plenty of things are obviously "sacred" to "pianistimo", since she has posted so very many words about and around religious topics on this forum.

May I counsel you not to "shut down"? - since you would then not be able to access any fora at all.

OK - let's sum up. This risk that this thread may indeed develop a subject, thereby undermining its very title, reamins to be assessed, but the potential subjects that could arise and be discussed are so far as follows:
1. "Pianistimo"
2. Sacrosanctity
3. Goddesses
4. The quality and value of members' contributions to this forum
5. Places of whose existence forum members may not previously have been aware
6. The possible consequences of failure or omission to shut up or down
7. The definitional differences (if any) between shutting up and shutting down.
8. Considering whether or not this thread might develop a subject
9. Morton Feldman

OK - so why "Morton Feldman", you may (or perhaps may not) ask? Well, he composed a Samuel Beckett based monodrama (if one could call it such) for soprano and orchestra entitled "Neither", two of the (very few) solo performers of which have, curiously, been Sarah Leonard and Elizabeth Farnum, each of whom is perhpas rather better known for her excursions into the songs of Sorabji.

Oh, yes...
10. Samuel Beckett
11. Sopranos
12. Sorabji...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Thank you Henrah, an excellent contibution 

Rather unnecessarily argumentative, though, wouldn't you say?...

Best,

Alistair

P.S. I'm off now to compose a G.P. bar (well, it's abit too early to have a drink in one, methinks...)

[henrah]

I think this thread has deliberated into a discussion about this thread, meaning that this thread has a subject which Thinker has been trying to avoid. In creating this thread, he created a subject: nothing, and the arguementative sides for and against nothing and all that might be contained or constrained around it have become the subject.

So, in conclusion,

[wishful thinker]

Thank you again Henrah, and thank you Mr Hinton.

I don't think that I can allow 2 or 3 as meaningful new topics, as surely they would be discussions about nothing, in that without any tangible evidence we cannot say for sure that such things exist (or not).  This leaves you with ten potential topics, not twelve.

Now if the number 12 is somehow sacred to you, maybe you may care to include as another potential topic of Why?

There are many things that matter, and many things that don't.  But who is to say which is which ?

[johnny-boy]

There's no such thing as "nothing". Even "nothing" is something. It's "nothing".

Best, John

[henrah]

Aha, a fundamental flaw in our logic of "nothing"! Well pointed out John

So in discussing "nothing", we are failing ourselves in defining "nothing" as something through discussing it. So this whole thread was doomed to fail by inciting "nothing" as a topic.

[wishful thinker]

Indeed.  We now have another potential subject, being "is nothing something".  So how many is that now?  Mr Hinton, will you be keeping a tally?

[wishful thinker]

and another thing.  If nothing is something, then nothing must have some value (to someone) surely?  And if it does have a value, can one exchange it; i.e. get something for nothing?

We are in danger of subverting the natural order of things with this pernicious desire to introduce a topic 

[ahinton]

I don't think that I can allow 2 or 3 as meaningful new topics, as surely they would be discussions about nothing, in that without any tangible evidence we cannot say for sure that such things exist (or not).  This leaves you with ten potential topics, not twelve.

OK, if you will; it's your thread, after all!

Now if the number 12 is somehow sacred to you, maybe you may care to include as another potential topic of Why?

But I didn't say that it is, nor do I believe it necessarily to be so (for example, the passacaglia which is the fifth movement of my piano work Sequentia Claviensis - which, as some readers will already know - will be premièred in London on 11 November has a 12-note theme but that theme is never treated serially - likewise, there is another passacaglia in my Piano Sonata No. 5 whose ground is a 12-note figure followed by its retrograde, but this is never treated serially either).

There are many things that matter, and many things that don't.

Indeed so!

But who is to say which is which ?

Or indeed to whom and why?

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

Nothing can be something through inaction, i.e. doing nothing can be quite significant to someone. For instance: in Kung-Fu Hustle, the Axe Gang poured gasoline over a mother and child and was threatening to set them alight if the person who killed their boss didn't come forward. If that person hadn't come forward, and the villagers knew that he had immense martial art skills, that inaction will be terribly significant. So, doing nothing would've held a great value to the villagers and to the Axe Gang.

And Thinker, you can sometimes get something for nothing these days. If an old person looks like he needs help getting his buggy on to a pavement and you help him, would you help him because he helped you? I sure didn't. I saw the need for help and I helped him, and he didn't and hasn't since done anything for me, and I don't expect him to. There are some favours which do not need returning.

[ahinton]

Indeed.  We now have another potential subject, being "is nothing something".  So how many is that now?  Mr Hinton, will you be keeping a tally?

Thank you for the invitation, but no, I won't; I'd rather leave the "responsibility" to someone else to do that (if indeed anyone does want to do it). All I would say on the subject (which is presumably itself yet another potential subject in this thread) is that the tally of potential subjects in this thread appears so far to be struggling to keep pace with that of actual posts to this thread.

By the way, I make no apology for what any reader may perceive as my arguably typical composer's desire to make something out of nothing; it's just one of the natural weapons in the creative armouries of us composers and accordingly "goes with the territory", so to speak...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Henrah, surely he had a need, which you exchange for you help   In contract law there must be what is called "consideration", that you beleived his need worthy of your help means that you did indeed, give something for something, not somehing for nothing  

[pianolist]

Or indeed to whom and why?

Khartoum calling.

[wishful thinker]

Khartoum calling.

That sounds like a piano roll    Is a fox trot by any chance?

[ahinton]

Khartoum calling.

So that camel's gotten all that way - even with a pianola on its hump; amazing!

Best,

Alistair

[pianolist]

It's a limerick, actually, but here are three piano rolls.

https://www.pianola.org/music/4'33".mp3

[ahinton]

That sounds like a piano roll    Is a fox trot by any chance?

No, I don't think that it can be so; they don't have foxes in Sudan, as far as I know - certainly not ones capable of trotting at speeds that would outpace pianola-laden camels, anyway...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

It's a limerick, actually, but here are three piano rolls.

https://www.pianola.org/music/4'33".mp3

My computer won't play this file, apparently - but, since its URL has "4'33"" as its suffix, I presume that there'd be "nothing" to play, anyway...

Hope the treatment for those solenoids proved to be efficacious, by the way...

Best,

Alistair

[pianolist]

Well, it took me about half an hour to prepare, and I duly uploaded it. It is 4.1 Mb long, and Firefox allied to Quicktime on my Apple G4 (OSX) plays it to perfection. Cage would have preferred an Apple, now wouldn't he?

[wishful thinker]

Mr Hinton,

Prepare to be amazed  There are 27 different species of fox, and one does indeed live in the sudan!

The Pale Fox (Vulpes pallida) is a species of fox which inhabits the Sahel from Senegal in the west to Sudan in the east. It is widespread throughout the Sahel but its environmental status is described as "data deficient" due to lack of intensified study of the pale fox in the wild.

The pale fox is long-bodied with relatively short legs and a narrow muzzle. Its ears are long and rounded at the tip. Its tail is bushy and black-tipped. The upperpart of its body has a pale sandy color, while the underpart is whitish. A dark ring surrounds the fox's eyes.

There are four recognized subspecies of pale fox: Vulpes pallida pallida, Vulpes pallida edwardsi, Vulpes pallida harterti, Vulpes pallida oertzeni.

Perhaps you could write us a short waltz or some such, which Mr Pianolist can transcribe for the pianola?  Maybe you two could then be a double act at your upcoming premier, if he brings his push-up?

[ahinton]

Well, it took me about half an hour to prepare, and I duly uploaded it. It is 4.1 Mb long, and Firefox allied to Quicktime on my Apple G4 (OSX) plays it to perfection.

Well, Windows Media Player 10 on my Windows XP Pro 2 didn't appear to like the piece (and could one blame it? How, in any case, did you manage to get its file size up to 4.1Mb?). Also, is it reasonable to assume that "Firefox" is not the same as the mythical trotting Sudanese one mentioned earlier?

Cage would have preferred an Apple, now wouldn't he?

Cor(e) blimey, I dunno, guv.

Anyway - toodle-(er)-"pip"...

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

Henrah, surely he had a need, which you exchange for you help   In contract law there must be what is called "consideration", that you beleived his need worthy of your help means that you did indeed, give something for something, not somehing for nothing  

He didn't have a need for my help, he could've done it himself. I merely offered to help him accomplish this task, and he accepted. There wasn't a return on my offer, i.e. if I offered to help him as long as he gave me a ride home on the back of his buggy

He didn't have a need, and he didn't give me a need, or anything else. Well, to be truthful he did give me his thanks, though that was afterwards and I did not accept them: I said in return "No no, my pleasure." If it is my pleasure to help him, then I am doing something for something completely for myself, i.e. giving him something to give myself something (the pleasure of helping him), but not giving him something to give me something (a ride home ).

I also offered him a 'good evening' without the expectation of him to return it, which he didn't as I don't think he heard me. All in all, he didn't ask me to help him, he didn't offer anything in return, and he could've done it on his own.

[ahinton]

Mr Hinton,

Prepare to be amazed  There are 27 different species of fox, and one does indeed live in the sudan!

Well, indeed I AM duly amazed! Clearly, my ignorace of this renardesque subject precedes me - and you've accordingly foxed me with your knowledge of it! Mea vulpa...

The Pale Fox (Vulpes pallida) is a species of fox which inhabits the Sahel from Senegal in the west to Sudan in the east. It is widespread throughout the Sahel but its environmental status is described as "data deficient"

so it's not at all like "pianistimo"'s posts, then?...

due to lack of intensified study of the pale fox in the wild.

The pale fox is long-bodied with relatively short legs and a narrow muzzle. Its ears are long and rounded at the tip. Its tail is bushy and black-tipped. The upperpart of its body has a pale sandy color, while the underpart is whitish. A dark ring surrounds the fox's eyes.

So, again we have consistency of comparison here, then, since your description reveals it to be nothing like "pianistimo" hersefl (save, perhaps, for the dark ring surrounding the eyes which, in her case, presumably results from exhaustion oafter so much posting)...

There are four recognized subspecies of pale fox: Vulpes pallida pallida, Vulpes pallida edwardsi, Vulpes pallida harterti, Vulpes pallida oertzeni.

Perhaps you could write us a short waltz or some such, which Mr Pianolist can transcribe for the pianola?  Maybe you two could then be a double act at your upcoming premier, if he brings his push-up?

Again, many thanks for the invitation, but I'll politely decline, if you don't mind, especially since such an exercise might be seen as somewhat redundant in the light of the existence already of that old song that goes
"Pale fox I loved
Beside the old Sahel"...
(from "Sénégalese Love Lyrics" [which I didn't know they did] by Amy Woodfox Finden)

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

There we have it; in discussing nothing, sever interesting facts emerge: Henrah has an altuistic streak, and that the Pale fox of Senegal has an interesting love life 

Who knows what will emerge when our American cousins rise 

[pianolist]

You don't have to travel to the Sudan to encounter wily old foxes. I think there are at least two living in Kent, one in Gravesend, and the other I know not where as yet, though I hope to by 3rd December.

You may be interested to know that the French word "Renard" is the same as the German word "Reinecke". Karl Reinecke was the  earliest-born person to record on piano roll, and you can hear him playing Beethoven's Ecossaise in Eb at:

https://www.pianola.org/reproducing/reproducing_welte.cfm

[wishful thinker]

I live in Kent 

[ahinton]

Speaking (or rather writing) of foxes of the mythical variety (wily or otherwise), does anyone remember the alleged but almost certainly non-existent "Jason Fox" who was cited a few times on this forum some while ago but of whom no reliable information ever emerged?

By the way, "pianolist" - is that "Firefox allied to Quicktime" that you mentioned earlier some kind of computer equivalent to the old "quick brown fox" (as distinct from pale ones of any velocity) of the typewriter era?

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

Best,

Alistair

Best,

Alistair

Has Alistair gone schizophrenic?

[ahinton]

Has Alistair gone schizophrenic?

No, but I think his computer may have done so momentarily - although its owner did notice the resultant supererogatory duplication almost as quickly as a quicktime pale fox would have done - and then he deleted the superfluous text forthwith...

Best,

Alistair

[henrah]

But not as quickly as I was to quote it my friend!

[pianistimo]

ahinton, himself, has roused me from sleep.  rings around the eyes the only similarity to foxes.  i am smitten with his knightly defending - until this sentence.  of which, i stagger to get a glass of orange juice -smitten to the juiciness of my heart.  if only he knew.  if only i could post a picture.  i am foxy.  just not apparently - because i can't figure out how and what digital camera to buy to get a picture uploaded of any particular quality.   and, perhaps, my husband  - knowing how good looking i am - is putting off any ideas of getting digital camera - lest i start spamming the forum with pictures.  of course, simply getting my passport picture made me wonder a little bit about brushing my hair - but aside from that - i usually look good at the crack of dawn.  it is only at 11 or 12 pm that makes me feel a bit exhausted. 

i'll have you know that because of my extensive use of gold bond moisturizing lotion - that i have neither wrinkle nor frown lines.  only slight laugh lines.  btw, despite how good looking foxes can be - i just saw one run over this morning.  i fear that with my leg i shall someday not be able to cross the street fast enough either.  so, in the end, beauty and godessing do nothing for getting one from A to B (as i found out when attempting to go to the premier of ahinton's work in waterloo).  to console myself - i now have tickets to hear ricardo muti - who will be conducting some schubert (overture to rosamunde and tragic symphony), hindemith's 'nobilissima visione,' and strauss 'death and transfiguration.'

now, if i am able to use this thread as a wily fox - i will find out from you all what i should listen for in these works.  sometimes people go into a concert with nothing in their heads and come out with nothing.  imo, you have to go into a concert with some questions and come out with some answers.  otherwise, you have wasted your money.  although, entertainment for entertainments sake is some people's idea of joy.  i can assure you it is not mine.  the first thing i do is read the entire program at top speed before the lights go down.  i must know what i am about to hear and about the composer and conductor.   noone else - except a bitter few use the program for anything but a fan.  why bother writing the stuff if noone reads it?  now, i confess in earlier years i only read the ads and who was contributing to the symphony (finding out the richest people).  but, that soon grew tiring.  now, one thing i wish is that programs would have large print (or the lights would be better).  i have had to slant the program towards the light and read at a sort of 180 level the program.  this bothers me - and makes me think that if there was some sort of spot lights for every five people - they could give us the joy of reading the program with some light.  of course, this is nothing to concert hall people who already have the ticket money and use it for other purposes.

[ahinton]

But not as quickly as I was to quote it my friend!

Indeed - as I then immediately spotted! Clearly, you're a quicker fox than most!

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

Good Morning Pianistimo, glad that you could make it 

Now, I have a couple of questions for you:

1.  If this thread of nothingness hadn't  been hijacked by Messrs Hinton, Pianolist and Henrah talking rubbbish, remaining about nothing and therefore true to itself, would you have still posted? and

2. What's for breakfast?

[ahinton]

ahinton, himself, has roused me from sleep.

I think I should confirm to all readers that "pianistimo" does not mean this literally...

rings around the eyes the only similarity to foxes...it is only at 11 or 12 pm that makes me feel a bit exhausted.

It was indeed that end of the day rather than the beginning thereof that I had in mind when writing what I did about that. 

i'll have you know that because of my extensive use of gold bond moisturizing lotion - that i have neither wrinkle nor frown lines.  only slight laugh lines.

Despite having no prior knowledge of your skin mosituring routines, it would never have occurred to me to suggest otherwise - and, for the record, I suspect that most people here already know that you are a foxy lady in any case...

in the end, beauty and godessing do nothing for getting one from A to B (as i found out when attempting to go to the premier of ahinton's work in waterloo).

This I do not understand; the only efforts to do this that you could possibly have made so far is to try to plan the trip, not to make it; after all, it doesn't take several weeks to get from Philadephia to London unless you're sailing.

i now have tickets to hear...strauss 'death and transfiguration.'

Did you know that Richard Strauss, when on his deathbed, apparently told his son Franz (whom he had named after his own father) that death was just as he had compsed it in that work?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Good Morning Pianistimo, glad that you could make it 

Now, I have a couple of questions for you:

1.  If this thread of nothingness hadn't  been hijacked by Messrs Hinton, Pianolist and Henrah talking rubbbish, remaining about nothing and therefore true to itself, would you have still posted? and

2. What's for breakfast?

1.  "Hijacking"? How DARE you?! You named and started this entire thread, yet you also initiated that "hijacking" yourself in the third line of your first post! And, while you're about it, despite the fact that it would again run counter to the principle of the thread, I think it only fair and reasonable that, rather than merely claim that other contributors thereto are "talking rubbish", you identify and explain precisely what that "rubbish" is and what makes it "rubbishy", in your view.

2.  Are you asking "pianistimo" this question? and will her answer - if she provides one - lead you to request an invitation to breakfast with her? (and, if so, was this your intention?)...

For the record, incidentally - and at the same time to demonstrate that I have not forgotten (still less dismissed) the actual thread topic - I usually have NOTHING for breakfast...

Best,

Alistair

[wishful thinker]

According to Wikipedia, there are two possible origins of the term "hijack"

1. That it arose from someone wanting a lift on a truck calling "Hi, Jack" (the exclamation plus the name), until this was used often as a trick by robbers.

2. That it comes from seamen who were robbed by prostitutes in former centuries in London. Prostitutes would call out "Hi, Jack" to passing sailors. Instead of receiving the services they expected, some sailors were instead robbed by an accomplice.

2. Could be quite topical, no? 

Now Mr Hinton, your really should have a good breakfast.  Its the most important meal of the day 

[ramseytheii]

The arguments on this thread prove once and for all that everybody here is a heathen who doesn't believe in God.

So I was jogging the other day, listening to Deuteronomy on my iPod, and I thought, I need to get back to the washing machine.

Then God appeared, and told me once and for all: Chopin's etude op.25 no.12 is the hardest of the bunch,  Moonlight 3rd movement is harder than Fantasie-Impromptu, and Alkan's Comme le vent is the hardest piece ever, and Opus Clavitisimo is not the longest piece ever written.

Then I was like, "God, how do I play SUPER-FAST OCTAVES?"

He said, "Thou shalt ask pianitisimo."

Walter Ramsey

[pianistimo]

i am totally confused.  are we arguing semantics?  i have never been one to win at this.  highjacking.  i am afraid to use the word.  and, also afraid to fly.  can someone come over here in a private lear jet?  ahinton?

what is for breakfast?  well, i can assure you that it would  not be vegemite.  as with all foxy ladies - (who don't cook) - nothing.  my husband was not put off by this when we first married and started buying boxes of frozen waffles.  eggo waffles.  in great big containers at costco. 

seriously, when i am in the mood - i will cook.  and, i'll let you in on a secret.  buy boxes of stuff like pancake mix, muffin mix, cornbread mix  - and put a 1/2 cup or 3/4 cup of whole wheat flour in - more eggs than it calls for - and voila - a really great breakfast.  also, i like to use buttermilk in pancakes.  and, have lately been thinking about the great sourdough that was handed down to me from my mother in alaska - and where i put it.

[dnephi]

Nothing

[pianistimo]

was that God's answer to super fast octaves?  let me lookin the bible.  well, here in isaiah it says that it is like 'a rainstorm against a wall.'  that is how you play super fast octaves.

[wishful thinker]

The arguments on this thread prove once and for all that everybody here is a heathen who doesn't believe in God.

No so sir!  We have our very own God, and she is called "pianistimo"    Of course whether anyone beleives in her as such is another matter     Is a cyber God better or lesser than a neon God?

I htink its time for my medication now  

[henrah]

Nothing

But that is something? So surely, if you meant to post nothing you would post

[ahinton]

Now Mr Hinton, your really should have a good breakfast.  Its the most important meal of the day 

A lot of people say that this is true. I can't usually face anything at that time of day. Thanks for your kind thoughts, however - and, as long as you don't expand them to suggest that I breakfast on a tepid vegemite sandwich and a cup of horlickovaltine, I'll accept them in the spirit in which I like to think that they are intended...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

The arguments on this thread prove once and for all that everybody here is a heathen who doesn't believe in God.

So I was jogging the other day, listening to Deuteronomy on my iPod, and I thought, I need to get back to the washing machine.

Then God appeared, and told me once and for all: Chopin's etude op.25 no.12 is the hardest of the bunch,  Moonlight 3rd movement is harder than Fantasie-Impromptu, and Alkan's Comme le vent is the hardest piece ever, and Opus Clavitisimo is not the longest piece ever written.

Then I was like, "God, how do I play SUPER-FAST OCTAVES?"

He said, "Thou shalt ask pianitisimo."

Walter Ramsey

Neatly put, sir - except, perhaps, for the lack of credibility in writing
"everybody here is a heathen who doesn't believe in God"
and
"pianistimo"
in the same post...

By the way, from what I undestand from a report yesterday about the recent claims of one of "mephisto"'s compatriots, you'll very soon be able to listen to the Bible in toto on any piece of machinery that you choose (except, perhaps, your washing machine), although I'd counsel you not to let such activity distract you while you are driving on a public highway...

Best,

Alistair

[pianistimo]

if we were to meet together as musicians - i can assure you that i would not bring up the bible.  i never really attempted to convert my piano teachers - but i did feel this sort of awe at the 'spiritualness' of their playing and contemplated the different levels that one reaches in any particular area of study.  now, in religion - the arabs and jews are probably WAY above our levels being that they are forced three times a day - and possibly more to pray - no less - either prone, or nodding back and forth.  when i broke my leg and injured my knee - i admitted to one of my religious friends that i had not done enough knee bending - and God was bending them for me.  sometimes life becomes so fast paced that even the supposed 'religous' are not really doing what they are supposed to.

in any case, with piano - the knee bending is given over to mind bending.  you wrap your mind around concepts so deeply that you cannot help but remember the music.  it is PARt of you.  that is what i get from my teachers.  it was so much a part of their nature - they could remember things from three years ago.  the thing is, with performers, this ability of memory and recall is extrememly important.  and, for me - is my downfall.  i cannot remember unless i practice every day very diligently. 

therefore, nothing comes when you don't practice.