Kapell quote - Have your say.

[opus10no2]

"If we say that I can play faster than you, then there is he that plays faster than I can, and so on, till we arrive at that moronic tribe of etude-players." -William Kapell

This quote stinks of jealousy to me, but what do you think?

[Kassaa]

Considering his third Chopson, this has nothing to do with jealousy.

[jakev2.0]

Kapell speaks for Reason on this matter.

[vlhorowitz]

If anything, I think the entire "moronic tribe of etude-players" was jealous of WK. If Kapell had anyone to be jealous of, it might as well have been someone like Tatum or Horowitz. Of course, we all know the story of Kapell fighting with a critic over Horowitz' playing. So no, he was not jealous because he was better than all of them.

[opus10no2]

Considering his third Chopson, this has nothing to do with jealousy.

He basically says that those whom can play faster than he are morons.

This is a classical deflection defence tactic - to avoid criticism for technical shortcomings by saying that the pursuit of them is moronic.

[jakev2.0]

He doesn't say that at all. He says that speed as the only goal is an empty-minded pursuit and art will suffer as a result.

[opus10no2]

Who says it's the only goal?

I don't believe art will suffer, anyway, because most artistic feelings and inclinations are innate.

[jakev2.0]

Mr. X plays a piece. That person is proud that they can play it fast. Mr. Y tells Mr. X That he can play the same piece even faster. After Mr. X's performance, Mr. Z comes along...

Kapell is a spectator and (rightly) thinks this is all a ridiculous state of affairs.

Now do you understand the quote?

[opus10no2]

No, it is perfectly natural to be able to play pieces with 2 seperate intents in 2 seperate performances.

1 performance to show off technique, and one without any purpose other than musical.

I advocate the ability to do both.

[the_duck]

No, it is perfectly natural to be able to play pieces with 2 seperate intents in 2 seperate performances.

1 performance to show off technique, and one without any purpose other than musical.

I advocate the ability to do both.

having read this post, and numerous similar ones by you, i can't help thinking that you might be a bit of an idiot. does anyone have any opposing/similar views on this matter?

edd

[cloches_de_geneve]

The obsession with speed and technical perfection (exemplified by op. 10no2) is just a temporary phenomenon, characteristic of our times, and it will go away again. It would not suprise me if, in 20 years, musical charisma, vision and originality will override "technique" as standards of evaluation.

[opus10no2]

The obsession with speed and technical perfection (exemplified by op. 10no2)

Speed is, in an around-about way, what made Liszt famous, and it impresses a wider range of people than 'art music'.

[m]

Speed is, in an around-about way, what made Liszt famous...

 

Your siliness has no boundaries. You don't seem to have enough intelligence even to understand this.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Speed is, in an around-about way, what made Liszt famous, and it impresses a wider range of people than 'art music'.

Madonna also impresses a wider range of people than Argerich. Is that also accounted for by "speed" or "raw dexterity"? What is your point anyway?

[opus10no2]

The point is, it isn't a temporary phenomenon.

[cloches_de_geneve]

The point is, it isn't a temporary phenomenon.

Read carefully: The OBSESSION with speed, not speed as such.

[opus10no2]

There is as much now as ever.

[counterpoint]

No chance for music - only the fastest will survive 

(I read something like this on the SDC forum)

[rc]

The obsession with speed and technical perfection (exemplified by op. 10no2) is just a temporary phenomenon, characteristic of our times, and it will go away again. It would not suprise me if, in 20 years, musical charisma, vision and originality will override "technique" as standards of evaluation.

Naw, music is always in vogue.  Whatever kookyness us musicians come up with, people are always in it for the music, they don't give a damn about speed one way or another.

I like the Kapell quote, it makes sense, it's easy to lose sight of the music when technique becomes the focus.  Musical immaturity I'd call it.

On the other hand I remember somewhere in his book, Neuhaus says something about how a lot of the great pianists go through a phase of technical obsession.  That makes sense to me too, then once the novelty wears off what we're left with is a pianist with a wide range of expression.

I'll admit I'm impressed by speed, but I'm more impressed with playing so beautiful that I don't even realize the speed that's going on.

[rc]

Another thought - I'm impressed by speed because I have troubles with it.  When I have good technical facility, I doubt I'll give it much thought.

[cloches_de_geneve]

You are obsessed with speed as long as you don't possess it yourself. ABOLUTELY, it's like with all the things that we admire.

[opus10no2]

You are obsessed with speed as long as you don't possess it youself. ABOLUTELY.

Tell that to BARERE.

[cloches_de_geneve]

Tell that to BARERE.

Who is Barere? I am more familiar with BAROLO, the red wine from Piemont.

[vlhorowitz]

Simon Barere. The guy who played a crazy Schumann Toccata and was sort of Horowitz' classmate from... I guess Kiev ?

[opus10no2]

After hearing Barere playing insanely fast -

Horowitz - 'why play so fast?'

Barere - ' I can play faster'

[cloches_de_geneve]

After hearing Barere playing insanely fast -

Horowitz - 'why play so fast?'

Barere - ' I can play faster'

Come on guys, are we in some kind of CIRCUS here, or are we talking about piano technique that is used for the interpretation of great music?! Maybe a separate section entitled "CIRCUS" or "FINGER OLYMPICS" should be added to "PERFORMANCE", "REPERTOIRE" and so forth.

[opus10no2]

https://www.dasdc.net/forum/index.php

[dutch_pianist]

Come on guys, are we in some kind of CIRCUS here, or are we talking about piano technique that is used for the interpretation of great music?! Maybe a separate section entitled "CIRCUS" or "FINGER OLYMPICS" should be added to "PERFORMANCE", "REPERTOIRE" and so forth.

exactly! Why do we discuss the importance of technique over and over? And why is good technique always associated with playing fast? Playing piano and forte, bringing out middle voices are also very important. You can still show off your technique while playing slow. and some pieces sound good with extreme tempos, some don't. that's up to the performer. I for example like steady tempos.

[thracozaag]

"If we say that I can play faster than you, then there is he that plays faster than I can, and so on, till we arrive at that moronic tribe of etude-players." -William Kapell

This quote stinks of jealousy to me, but what do you think?

  If there's no core emotional impetus behind the playing, it quickly becomes a stunt, and quite boring.  That's the difference between say, Barere's Schumann toccata and Cziffra's for me (to cite just one example of this).  I know this will fall on deaf ears, but speed for speed's sake is an artistic dead-end.  Perhaps you'll actually acknowledge this one day.

koji

[bench warmer]

...and, if you really need to get that last bit of velocity out your music, play inside a room filled with Helium. It's less dense than air so the sound waves will travel faster than they would in an Air filled room.

Also, Maybe we can start a whole new industry: Nascar Piano Races 

[cmg]

"If we say that I can play faster than you, then there is he that plays faster than I can, and so on, till we arrive at that moronic tribe of etude-players." -William Kapell

This quote stinks of jealousy to me, but what do you think?

No, it doesn't "stink of jealousy," but it does reflect the psychological mechanism of "projection."  What you are doing is projecting onto Kapell -- who's no longer here to defend himself -- your own jealousy of pianists who play faster than you.

Kapell had little reason in his short, but brilliant, life and career to be jealous of anyone.

As Gieseking said, when asked about how little he needed to practice, "those who are dirty must bathe."  Take a bath, opus, and give Kapell a break.   

[opus10no2]

  If there's no core emotional impetus behind the playing, it quickly becomes a stunt, and quite boring.  That's the difference between say, Barere's Schumann toccata and Cziffra's for me (to cite just one example of this).  I know this will fall on deaf ears, but speed for speed's sake is an artistic dead-end.  Perhaps you'll actually acknowledge this one day.

koji

Of course I'd agree with this, except the use of the word 'boring'.

I don't actually like that piece in any hands other than Cziffra's, and so I see Cziffra's as an artistic achievment, and Barere's as a technical achievment.

There's no doubt speed for speed's sake is an ARTISTIC dead-end, but who is to say it has any less value than that of any other form of athleticism.

If people got bored of just 'running fast' there'd be no olympics.

[Mozartian]

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know."

-Abraham Lincoln on comme

[opus10no2]

The majority of my posts have a disarming succinctness, a single word from my lips speaks volumes.

[rach n bach]

I think that he has a point.  He is basically saying that music is more than just speed typing.

If it offends you, it is not he that is jealous...

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know."

-Abraham Lincoln on comme

lol

RnB

[cloches_de_geneve]

The majority of my posts have a disarming succinctness, a single word from my lips speaks volumes.

Right, I forgot to say that there should also be a section called "MEGALOMANIA", next to CIRCUS.

[opus10no2]

I think that he has a point.  He is basically saying that music is more than just speed typing.

Just as speed typing is more than music? (!)


I find it funny that people can spend the better part of their lives developing physical proficiency at other disciplines and be admired the world over..and yet when a pianist chooses to display this element of his craft, even at the expense of musicality, he is maligned.

When I see a physically beautiful woman and know she has an unappealing personality, I can still enjoy the physical beauty independantly.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Just as speed typing is more than music? (!)


I find it funny that people can spend the better part of their lives developing physical proficiency at other disciplines and be admired the world over..and yet when a pianist chooses to display this element of his craft, even at the expense of musicality, he is maligned.

When I see a physically beautiful woman and know she has an unappealing personality, I can still enjoy the physical beauty independantly.

But there is probably only one activity you would care to take part in with her, whereas if she had an appealing personality, you would perhaps want to have a more complete relationship? So in the same way, you can admire speed for speed's sake, but that's not a full (musical) relationship either.

[opus10no2]

Of course, the combination of both is great, but play as fast as possible doesn't necessarily defeat the musical appeal of a piece, though this is depending on taste.

The point which I asserted earlier was that there is always the opportunity to play with different intents, and for many people - playing with technical intent compromises the music.
My personal musical tastes, however, see minimal clashing, as my musical taste is inclined to prefer faster performances.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

Depends on the nature of the piece I guess. There are some pieces where I think an overly fast tempo would be heresy - the Grand Galop Chromatique and Mazeppa are obviously not in this group. Leslie Howard's Liszt Sonata, however, is butchery.

Do you like the Geoffrey Storm videos? 

[opus10no2]

Indeed I do.

And Howard evidently rushes the slow parts - in the Liszt Sonata - many of the fast sections sound great when played AFAP, and thus - are great for comparing pianists' abilities.

[ronde_des_sylphes]

I rather doubt that Liszt would have considered the octave section or any other part of the sonata as pianist Olympics. On the other hand, there are areas of his music which I think it is pretty evident the music is the writing of someone happy to flaunt his technique. There are two nice anecdotes that I've read showing these contrasting sides of him; one regarding him being unamused and unimpressed when his Weimar students showed off technically, and another one of him being, in contrast, most amused by a pianist playing the Rigoletto paraphrase in a reworking for one hand only and ostentatiously using the spare hand to blow his nose during it.

[opus10no2]

I think AFAP is a valid interpretation of many works

Also some overplayed works have been played so much that, as great as they are, they bocome boring.
And the only real reason for playing it would be to say something new OR say it faster than anyone else.

[tds]

if only the energy to argue about piano technique here could be reabsorbed and restored!

hmm, this is only a speculation, but i believe it can generates enough electricity for the entire new york city for several weeks.

tds

[iumonito]

I think AFAP is a valid interpretation of many works

Also some overplayed works have been played so much that, as great as they are, they bocome boring.
And the only real reason for playing it would be to say something new OR say it faster than anyone else.

Have fun.  That sounds dreadfully boring to me.  On the other hand, if you cannot discover something new even upon listening to recordings, I think it means your cup of tea is full and you are not hungry for learning or for development.  At least not for what I would consider worthwhile.

If what you want is to play for the athleticism of it, compose some music whose only purpose is to be played as fast as possible (kind of a 100 metter track) and let the piece be just that.  In fact, you now give me the idea of doing such thing.  I'll dedicate them to you at this immature age you are going through, in hope that soon you will outgrow it.

Tracks.

Kapell, btw, was a genius, a great technician and a fine musician.  I did not kow he was witty too, but now I see he was indeed.

[opus10no2]

I said I advocate the ability to play for 2 different purposes.

There is plenty music that sounds great when played AFAP.

If appreciation of athleticism is an immature phase, why was the 6th Rocky movie so popular?

[iumonito]

If appreciation of athleticism is an immature phase, why was the 6th Rocky movie so popular?

I could not have put it better.     Absolutely brilliant.

[m]

I think AFAP is a valid interpretation of many works

 

Did you understand yourself what did you write? 

[opus10no2]

Allegro con brio, Presto, Vivace.

My Italian may be a little fuzzy, but I understand they all mean 'as fast as possible'.

[m]

Allegro con brio, Presto, Vivace.

My Italian may be a little fuzzy, but I understand they all mean 'as fast as possible'.

Yeah, I know that  ,

It is just that the word "interpretation" is a little bit confusing in conjunction.