4th finger/ forearm issues

[valor]

hi, i've been having issues with my 4th finger and forearm and i was wondering if someone could help me. I'm having problems lifting my 4th fingers, especially the one on my left hand. I've tried some advice offered to other people with the same issue, like playing notes harder with my 4th finger, and i also tried some exercises my teacher gave me. None of them helped (although the exercises helped me control my 2nd finger ). Also, whenever i play a fast peice (pirates of the carribean, hes a pirate, its filled with chords for the left hand) my forearm gets really sore. It seems if i dont get this problem fixed i wont be able to play any faster. Can someone offer some advice?

[will]

I'm having problems lifting my 4th fingers

What do you mean? Why do you need to lift your 4th fingers?

I've tried some advice offered to other people with the same issue, like playing notes harder with my 4th finger

What will playing notes harder with your 4th finger achieve?

Also, whenever i play a fast peice (pirates of the carribean, hes a pirate, its filled with chords for the left hand) my forearm gets really sore. It seems if i dont get this problem fixed i wont be able to play any faster. Can someone offer some advice?

For the moment, slow down! Do not play anything that results in your forearm getting very sore. Do not try and use muscle to fight with the piano.

In the meantime have a look at this thread - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168

[ramseytheii]

In the meantime have a look at this thread - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7341.msg114168.html#msg114168

I was going to mention the same one!

Walter Ramsey

[will]

On not needing to lift 4th finger - https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,7887.0.html

Do you try to keep your fingers curled in a round shape (imagining you are holding a ball) when you play the piano? This could be one of the reasons you are getting a sore forearm. See https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2507.0.html

[valor]

I dont completely curve my fingers just a little, and i figured playing notes harder with my 4th finger will strengthen it so that i can play a bit louder and faster with it, and so that i could keep my 5th and 3rd finger independent. I'll go read the thread you added. thanks.

[richy321]

As others have pointed out,  the "weakness" of the 4th finger is not something that any amount of exercises for strength or independence is going to remedy.  Such efforts are more likely to cause injury, expecially if pain is already present.  The "weakness" is an anatomical fact due to the interconnections with the tendons of the 3rd and 5th fingers and varies considerably among individuals.  This problem is best overcome by learning to use the whole arm from the elbow to the fingertips in a coordinated way so as to provide support for all fingers, including the 4th.  This includes maintaining an arch-like  structure from the elbow to the fingertip.  There is also a need to maintain similar support in the palm and across the knuckle bridge.  All this while avoiding excess tension, a very important matter.  As to how to learn this method, I doubt that this can be learned by oneself.  If you are serious about technique and avoiding injury, I recommend that you search for a qualified teacher, expecially one who is trained in the Taubman technique.

Rich Y

[valor]

Ok I think I understand. So basically I can use my 4th and 5th finger just as good as any other finger as long as I tilt my hand a little or lift it and that no amount of exercise can make my 4th finger stronger and in order to avoid my forearm or any part of my arms to get tired I have to adjust them into a comfortable position.

Alright i have another question: Since the 4th and 5th finger does have limitations should I try to avoid using them in fast passages? (i was practing on a fast passage just a few minutes ago. I had the option of playing three notes, right hand, with my 4th and 3rd then 5th finger or 5th 4th and 5th again. I found my 4th finger would delay a bit but after I tried pressing it down while pressing down the 5th it played perfectly well so im not sure if its just something i have to practice on.)

[rc]

Ok I think I understand. So basically I can use my 4th and 5th finger just as good as any other finger as long as I tilt my hand a little or lift it and that no amount of exercise can make my 4th finger stronger and in order to avoid my forearm or any part of my arms to get tired I have to adjust them into a comfortable position.

You got it!  Comfort is the principle to always strive for.  What you want rather than strength is coordination.  You can develop the 4th and 5th fingers, so don't be always avoiding them in passages or you will develop a weakness.  There are a lot of passages where it will make the most sense to use them, and you would have to really twist yourself to avoid it.

I recommend learning some repertoire with fast sections that use 4 and 5 in each hand, take the problem head on!  Also, it's good that you're looking at the problem in detail, but also be aware that it's possible to bog yourself down in the details, sometimes it's good to take a broader persective in solving technical problems.

[valor]

Ok, i'll try it all out, now i have another question thats a bit off this topic, i ought to make a new post but i wouldn't want to take up space when i could use this one.

A few months ago I found a peice (Rowdy rumble from Kingdom Hearts II) thats filled with chords for the left hand. This really wouldn't be a problem if i didn't have to jump across the keyboard, and at 175 metronome, heres an example: (eighth notes) DD to FAD to BB to FAD then repeats then C#C# to GAC# to BB to GAC# and repeats, every measure has different  combinations. I asked my piano teacher if its possible to play this (i tried and my forearm instantly got tired and i could barely play two chords that fast) and he said no. Is it really impossible to play these chord jumps? (btw, the right hand is busy playing chords and sixteenth notes).