I can't take this anymore!! WARNING: rant ahead

[db05]

Am depressed again. I just can't take it anymore! I had been stuck with lame piano teachers for a year now. I have no more trust in my teachers, all they tell me is to practice more, and that's it... I don't understand why I can't put in so much time, if that is the problem. I reach the point of diminishing returns after only an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. Either my head hurts, or my back, and errors after errors are made.

No one's telling me how to practice more efficiently, and it hurts that they're implying I'm lazy. Plus my classmates think I'm more intelligent and talented than I really am because I'm quite the critic. I have a classmate who has perfect pitch and is working on inventions and Chopin Waltz in C#m. And another who just started this March, he's playing Chopin Minute Waltz. I just don't understand why I can't progress as much. AT LEAST let me progress in piano as much as my guitar! Guitar has been slow and steady for me, and I have many performable pieces. On piano I have only 3 minuets.

I don't understand it at all. Everyone else is sight reading pieces HT until they get it right, using intuitive methods... And yet I'm falling behind. I don't exactly want to be a virtuoso, but the best piano teacher. But apparently the methods I use are lame. Practicing HS, segmental practice, memorizing pieces... Tell me, is this wrong?? But honestly, I can't practice any other way... I had been doing this from the start, because I had trouble sight-reading. It takes too long to learn a piece by sight reading, so I memorize it. So at this rate, I already cut my learning time in half, and yet I'm still behind!!

Am really frustrated now and can't go back to the piano. I feel cheated. I have invested my time learning practice methods, and searching this forum... all for nothing...

[frank_48]

i felt that way once, albiet not as harshly as you. all i can say is dont give up. push through it. perhaps, you should read some tips from changs book on piano practice (if you havnt already) as a beginner i found alot of help.

https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1

[pinoypianist]

How about considering to change your teacher? Well it happened to me too, but I had think about carefully because sometimes the teachers think differently and might react in a not so kind manner. I'm not suggesting that you do this, but it's something to think about. if you feel that the teacher is limiting your capability, well, I think, something id wrong.

[db05]

i felt that way once, albiet not as harshly as you. all i can say is dont give up. push through it. perhaps, you should read some tips from changs book on piano practice (if you havnt already) as a beginner i found alot of help.

https://www.pianofundamentals.com/book/en/chapter_1

frank, you know me... You can see from my earlier posts that I am familiar with Dr. Chang's book, and bernhard's "method". I believed they were right, though it shoudn't be a matter of belief, as bernhard would say. I don't know what to do or who to trust now. An alternative would be nice, but I'm still doubtful.

[frank_48]

frank, you know me... You can see from my earlier posts that I am familiar with Dr. Chang's book, and bernhard's "method". I believed they were right, though it shoudn't be a matter of belief, as bernhard would say. I don't know what to do or who to trust now. An alternative would be nice, but I'm still doubtful.

heh, yeah forgot you've been hear longer than me.

my only suggestion is to keep searching for a teacher who can take you exactly where you want to go with piano, might take a while, but im sure its possible.

[db05]

pinoy, I can only get my teacher changed when I graduate/ leave. That would be in a couple years' time. Until then, I want to save $$$ to pay for the new teacher. Another alternative would be to study abroad. But I won't be able to search around much in the new territory.

I'm not even sure if the problem is with the teacher or me. We all use the same curriculum here, and my teacher's other students are actually very good. They join recitals and competitons in school. So it's probably me.

[pinoypianist]

maybe you just have to be patient..... it's quite hard. would be happy to talk to you after your recital. I also had my share of dissapointments..

[cmg]

Am depressed again. I just can't take it anymore! I had been stuck with lame piano teachers for a year now. I have no more trust in my teachers, all they tell me is to practice more, and that's it.

No one's telling me how to practice more efficiently, and it hurts that they're implying I'm lazy. Plus my classmates think I'm more intelligent and talented than I really am because I'm quite the critic.

I don't understand it at all.

Am really frustrated now and can't go back to the piano. I feel cheated. I have invested my time learning practice methods, and searching this forum... all for nothing...

Okay, you're still kvetching about this same issue with no answers.

You say you've read Chang and Bernhard's posts.  You can't get better direction on how to practice than this.  You say your teacher is producing other accomplished students, so it sounds as if the teacher is not completely "lame."

You say you're progressing on the guitar at a greater rate than the piano.

Look.  Here are the facts:  you're clearly intelligent.  You've got a wicked sense of humor.  You do tons of "navel-gazing" (i.e. thinking).  What do you really think is the issue here?  Could it be that with all your other obvious gifts you're simply not blessed with a natural facility to master the piano?  The problem with being a musician is that if you haven't begun in early childhood you're already very behind.  If you start in later childhood or adolescence, you better be graced with an impressive natural facility to make up for lost time.

You say you want to teach.  There are other things to teach besides piano, you know.  Guitar, for one obvious example.

You say you're quite the "critic."  Well, there's a career for you!  And the good news about being a critic is that you don't have to have the least bit of talent as a performer.  Just hone your writing skills, study music history and performance practice history, oodles of repertoire and you've got the background.  A music degree wouldn't hurt, but it's not required. 

Don't panic. 

And don't take the gas pipe.

You're young.  What you think you absolutely must have now is probably what you'll regret getting in years to come.  That's the way life goes.  We change as we mature.  As the expression goes: "More tears are shed over answered prayers."

[db05]

Okay, you're still kvetching about this same issue with no answers.

You say you're progressing on the guitar at a greater rate than the piano.

Yessir.

Albeit it would still be a slow rate in other people's opinion. My guitar routine? Hanon-esque and boring. I wouldn't wish it on my future students.

Look.  Here are the facts:  you're clearly intelligent.  You've got a wicked sense of humor.  You do tons of "navel-gazing" (i.e. thinking).

Uh, thanks? What wicked sense of humor?

You say you're quite the "critic."  Well, there's a career for you!  And the good news about being a critic is that you don't have to have the least bit of talent as a performer.  Just hone your writing skills, study music history and performance practice history, oodles of repertoire and you've got the background.  A music degree wouldn't hurt, but it's not required. 

Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach, criticize. But that doesn't help anyone. I want to be more hands-on. I can't stand the thought that there may be students just like me. I gave up traditional schooling for this. And I want people to be able to play the pieces they want. Hell, that's my vision-mission. But thanks for the suggestion.

I don't take gas pipes. Don't worry, am not suicidal. 

Thank you very much, sir.

[cmg]

Well, I just wish you the best of luck and I'm sure that as resourceful and intelligent as you are, you'll reach your goal.

One tip:  keep your practice time as short as you need.  Just 15 or 20 minutes, isolating just one phrase or just one measure, then get away from the piano and turn your attention to something else for the same period of time.  Return rested each time.  No need practicing until your back aches.

You'll be fine.  Small steps will get you to your goal.  It just may take more time.

[db05]

Thanks, cmg. I know I'll be back at the piano in a while.

Still don't think I can teach, though.

*shudders at the thought of students picking up my bad habits*

*shudders more at the thought of students not learning anything from me*

I don't know which is worse. *faints*

[cmg]

Thanks, cmg. I know I'll be back at the piano in a while.

Still don't think I can teach, though.

*shudders at the thought of students picking up my bad habits*

*shudders more at the thought of students not learning anything from me*

I don't know which is worse. *faints*

[Offers smelling salts to the fainting damsel.]

[db05]

[Offers smelling salts to the fainting damsel.]

To think that some people can play piano better without a teacher...

UBER FAIL. *dies*

[lostinidlewonder]

Teaching piano at a masters level in my opinion is much harder than playing piano at a masters level. So you certainly are not making your job easier by saying you don't want to be a virtuoso pianists but the best teacher.

As a great teacher you must always hold this close to your mind when dealing with students: "One cannot change the direction of the wind, however we can adjust our sails." Some people are at the moment stuck in considering music in a certain way, like you find yourself more into memory work than sight reading. You cannot force yourself into the other direction immediately, you must slowly adjust yourself. A good teacher can sense small adjustments to their students which encourage them to look at their music in a different way. So a good question for you to ask your teachers is how can you adjust the way you are learning your music. Unfortunately most teachers have a scatter gun approach to their teaching and can only give you general guides, you might as well be taught over the telephone with these teachers, I wouldn't waste my money though.

There is no point in getting depressed if you cannot turn around your approach in one go. Get excited making small changes to your approach and in a few years time you will not recognize the great change you have gone through. That is how we make real changes to our approach to music, it is not a eureka moment, or being struck by genius (in rare cases it can be) but overall all our changes to our musical approach is gradual and we don't notice it as much if we measure it daily. Who really cares how well other students go, this competitive attitude is a useless source for motivation and can demoralize our small changes we make to our own ability.

[db05]

Teaching piano at a masters level in my opinion is much harder than playing piano at a masters level. So you certainly are not making your job easier by saying you don't want to be a virtuoso pianists but the best teacher.

As a great teacher you must always hold this close to your mind when dealing with students: "One cannot change the direction of the wind, however we can adjust our sails." Some people are at the moment stuck in considering music in a certain way, like you find yourself more into memory work than sight reading. You cannot force yourself into the other direction immediately, you must slowly adjust yourself. A good teacher can sense small adjustments to their students which encourage them to look at their music in a different way. So a good question for you to ask your teachers is how can you adjust the way you are learning your music. Unfortunately most teachers have a scatter gun approach to their teaching and can only give you general guides, you might as well be taught over the telephone with these teachers, I wouldn't waste my money though.

Scatter gun approach it may be,
but how come it works for others
and not for me? 

Maybe I'm just a bad student... bad bad bad.  But hold on, Sir lostin. I can't even tell if it's possible for me to be a teacher. Who'd want to take lessons from someone who takes months to learn a simple piece? It's not very encouraging, is it? So though I understand "slowly adjusting your sails" in a way, and it is an answer good enough for me as a student... It's not good enough for me as a future teacher. The average piano student would not go on like this if there's little day-to-day improvement. That is the only reason I compare myself with other students. Frankly, though they're more advanced, I prefer my own tone. But I know most people don't care about that. 

[rc]

Maybe you're being a bit hard on yourself

But of course, that can't be helped when you're constantly in the company of other students.  That could be one great advantage of my pianistic isolation, I can only compare my progress to myself (where I was yesterday, last week, last month).

I DO think it's important to be a good pianist before becoming a teacher.  The way I see it, the more experience a teacher has in playing, the more they have to offer students.

BTW tone is just as important as anything else!  I'm trying to improve my overall sound and I've gotta say it's not a piece of cake.  Takes very close listening skills.  In fact I'm disappointed that I've managed to practice so long without noticing these defects

I'll bet there are many who can pick up with the greatest of ease what takes me days to get a handle on...  But, that doesn't help at all, just gotta keep at it.

You've got a lot of resources for practicing, but it takes time to integrate them and find out what works for what situations.  I spent months tweaking my practice to get decent results, and it's been an ongoing process.  Bit by bit improving my methods.  Also I should mention that over time I've been able to improve my attention span, being able to sit down and practice for longer periods of time.

I guess all I can say is good luck.  Persist!  Take a break if you need.  and bring these things up with your teacher!  It works best as a team effort, and when trouble arises, communication makes all the difference.

[hyrst]

I know it doesn't help a lot in the current frustration, however, as a future teacher, your struggle is of great benefit.  People find it hard to teach adaptively what they have not experienced.  In a normal studio group, you will have a few who pick things up quickly and you'll be secretly jealous how easy it is for them.  However, you will have many more who make slower progress, who come across walls and obstacles to climb over, who need to find new sources of courage and endurance.  You will have so much more to offer - you will have found some ways that work for different situations and will know some of the traps to help students avoid.  You can say to students, "I know it seems hard right now, because I have felt that way in my own journey, but one day this will click and you will find yourself doing things you never thought you could and this will seem easy."  You will be able to say it with sincerity, not as a weak offering of words in the hope that your student is still there next lesson. 

Be creative in your approach, try new things, be gentle to your self emotionally and physically but build your strength every day.  Sometimes you can sit in one place for a while, and then something falls into place, or someone says something in a way that helps you understand what you thought you already did and now realise something new - if that makes sense.  You will have "aha" moments  - and those will give you a spurt - and you will be glad that you persevered.

[lostinidlewonder]

Scatter gun approach it may be,
but how come it works for others
and not for me? 

Sometimes we need more guidance to understand something than other people. This does not mean that you are "worse" or a lesser musician. A good teacher however will pick up on what challenges you the most and help you through it.

..I can't even tell if it's possible for me to be a teacher. Who'd want to take lessons from someone who takes months to learn a simple piece? It's not very encouraging, is it?

You can always teach at a lower level than what you can currently play at. Teaching beginners are the hardest to teach in my opinion, so if you can master that you are doing well. You don't need to be a super virtuoso at the piano to teach beginners, but you have to have a good teaching method, which really is learned from practice more than anything else.

So though I understand "slowly adjusting your sails" in a way, and it is an answer good enough for me as a student... It's not good enough for me as a future teacher.

The reason many people do not take risks in their life is because they are not able to cause a great change immediately in their life. Slightly adjusting our habits will produce small success which we can observe. So for you if you find sight reading hard, what are you doing to practice your reading? Why not start doing dedicated study on reading music, read easier music, stuff that seems simple to you, but practice your reading skills. The more you do this the better you get at reading.

I started teaching a lot of beginner/intermediate students and I had to read through tons of music that where so simple for me to play. Although reading this simple music in fact strengthened my overall sight reading skills. I have to say that the hours every week reading through basic music with students and picking out things they miss, or extra information that they shouldn't be reading, helps me to detect my own reading inefficiencies in more complicated situations.

But we make small adjustments to our abilities, we cannot expect to change our ways immediately, and certainly improving sight reading to memory skills is not something you can improve immediately.

That is the only reason I compare myself with other students. Frankly, though they're more advanced, I prefer my own tone. But I know most people don't care about that. 

Why bother comparing yourself with people? Sometimes we find validation in what we do when we see that we can do it better than others. This is however not something that you want to draw your inspiration from for your whole life. We have a much more noble, selfless attitude towards why we want to play our music. Certainly we try not to let impressing other people fuel our egos and need to study our music.

[db05]

Maybe you're being a bit hard on yourself

Yeah, maybe I should quit.

Hi, everyone. I just came back from the piano. Guess what, after 30 mins, everything fell apart and I had to stop. And then I realized: piano playing, or any important endeavor is like this: you either have it or you don't. I find that I'm doing the blame game, blaming my teachers, blaming myself... But I shouldn't have. I'm sorry, everyone.

In the grand scheme of things, you don't learn anything. You just have this much potential and you need someone to tell you how to use it. But no one can teach you something you can't do. Take basketball. If you're just 5 feet tall, there's no way you can be in the NBA. If you're just 4 feet, forget about slam dunking. No matter how hard you train, it won't happen. Same with piano. Broken pinky? Hand span less than an octave? No endurance? No coordination? Forget it!!

You can say to students, "I know it seems hard right now, because I have felt that way in my own journey, but one day this will click and you will find yourself doing things you never thought you could and this will seem easy."

...And the student may conclude that his teacher is terrible, and/or piano is not worth the time and effort... I've had those talks, too. I've believed those words, but that click never happened.

BTW tone is just as important as anything else!  I'm trying to improve my overall sound and I've gotta say it's not a piece of cake.  Takes very close listening skills.  In fact I'm disappointed that I've managed to practice so long without noticing these defects

rc, I think it's because I started on a keyboard before I finally got a piano. Everything had the same dynamic and tone. I could only decide and hear the tone in my head, and then be excited to practice on a real piano at school. It takes not only listening skills, but also imagination. Your sound is not "defective" as there is no such thing as "wrong" or "right" interpretation. Rather, you don't know what you want. Like my problem with scales, remember?

Sir lostin, more than anyone, you sound like the dean in our school. I have nothing more to say, I'm sorry x10. 

[lostinidlewonder]

...lostin, more than anyone, you sound like the dean in our school. I have nothing more to say, I'm sorry x10. 

I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

[concerto_love]

think of this... this year is my sixth year learning piano, and I can only play canon in d, NO JOKINg..... think of that.. 

[db05]

think of this... this year is my sixth year learning piano, and I can only play canon in d, NO JOKINg..... think of that.. 

Maybe we're not meant to be pianists at all! At least you can be a mangaka... Me?

I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

He is the best teacher in the school. He is very special to me. He can't teach me piano, unfortunately... And I hate him for that. I messaged him today, "You can teach me if you wanted to... But you don't... I want a teacher not a reference. I have plenty of those."

I know I don't mean to say I hate him. I'm sorry. 

[teresa_b]

People have different styles of learning.  Some do very well with hearing something, others do much better with visualization, others with kinetic movement-based practice, etc.  Some have more luck with memorizing (I do not). 

If you wish to become a good teacher, of course you have to master the instrument decently.  You don't have to play everything your students play, or are able to play.  But you do have to know how to teach them.  Maybe your teacher is just not using techniques that you find helpful to your particular learning style.  You can adjust to a degree, but you may need to discover what makes you tick (or, tickle the ivories  ). 

Look at some resources that emphasize pedagogy or educational techniques.  Experiment to see what "grabs" you.  Once you have figured that out, you can progress more quickly.  You can also use this information to help your future students learn according to their best style. 

Best of luck!
Teresa

[db05]

Thanks, Ma'am teresa.

Frankly, my piano teacher isn't teaching me any techniques. It's just me picking up from my guitar lessons, asking around and other sources. I don't know anything that makes me tick. Not in actual practice.

[bjenkins24]

I know it doesn't help a lot in the current frustration, however, as a future teacher, your struggle is of great benefit.  People find it hard to teach adaptively what they have not experienced.  In a normal studio group, you will have a few who pick things up quickly and you'll be secretly jealous how easy it is for them.  However, you will have many more who make slower progress, who come across walls and obstacles to climb over, who need to find new sources of courage and endurance.  You will have so much more to offer - you will have found some ways that work for different situations and will know some of the traps to help students avoid.  You can say to students, "I know it seems hard right now, because I have felt that way in my own journey, but one day this will click and you will find yourself doing things you never thought you could and this will seem easy."  You will be able to say it with sincerity, not as a weak offering of words in the hope that your student is still there next lesson. 

Be creative in your approach, try new things, be gentle to your self emotionally and physically but build your strength every day.  Sometimes you can sit in one place for a while, and then something falls into place, or someone says something in a way that helps you understand what you thought you already did and now realise something new - if that makes sense.  You will have "aha" moments  - and those will give you a spurt - and you will be glad that you persevered.

This is really good advice.  Something that I've had to come to terms with is that playing the piano well is something that takes years of experience.  For me everything has come easy, whether it was learning a new language, or anything else as long as I put in a little work over a short period of time. 

But here's the piano, I started late and although you see progress every once and a while my fingers just don't do exactly what I tell them to and it's really frustrating because everything else comes easy.  Whether I practice 10 hours a day or not I think that experience is the most important factor in the equation to confidence and ease in playing the piano.  Nothing significant is going to change in weeks or even months, it takes years.  Then you look back and say, wow I guess I did improve! 

As long as it's really what you want to do then keep at it, you'll be much better in a few years than I think you think is possible right now.

[richard black]

To think that some people can play piano better without a teacher...

Few of them will make good teachers. I had lessons, but to quite a large extent I'm a 'natural' and I wouldn't have a CLUE how to teach, certainly not a beginner.

Anyway, I can't honestly say I feel your pain, because that would be kinda pretentious, but I do feel very sympathetic towards your plight. My 2 cents is to pick up some completely new repertoire, something that's not technically demanding, e.g. Für Elise or MacDowell's 'To a Wild Rose' and make it as beautiful as you can. You said yourself you don't aspire to be a virtuoso, so focus on being a poet of the piano. And try to get into some chamber music, at whatever level. Piano's awful lonely sometimes....

[lostinidlewonder]

....He can't teach me piano, unfortunately... And I hate him for that. I messaged him today, "You can teach me if you wanted to... But you don't... I want a teacher not a reference. I have plenty of those."

I know I don't mean to say I hate him. I'm sorry. 

Well I am sorry if you think I was trying to teach you anything I don't think you will get a complete solution to your problem answered here though. In the end you have to pick yourself up and move on. I feel that demoralizing yourself by comparing yourself with other students will not help you much, so that is an important issue to deal with. Also finding the real reason behind why you are playing the piano, what joy are you drawing from it? Would you play the piano if no one in the world existed but yourself?

We know our own weaknesses at the piano better than anyone else. However a teacher can show you things you didn't know you didn't know. I find it a students responsibility to let the teacher know about the things they know that they don't know. I always ask my students to discuss anything that troubles them, perhaps you should start talking to your teacher about your worries. Ask them how can you actively improve your sight reading. Not just let them palm off your question with a general answer but ask them to show you how to do it exactly, make a lesson out of it. As a student having one on one lesson with a piano teacher you have the right to ask for this.

I think the more you share your frustrations with your teacher and ask them to solve it during the lesson, the less anxious you will feel about your problems, that's what a teacher is for. Once our problems are out in the open and worked upon, we are too busy to worry about them.

Some people like to write out all their problems and work out how to solve it themselves before sharing it with others. What gets written gets done, what is left in the head can just cycle around and around. When we write things down our thinking slows down and we can look more carefully into what is really troubling us. Once you are left with a list of your problems you can be overwhelmed as to how to solve it. We cannot expect things to change immediately but we certainly can measure our progress through the improvements made.

Your sight reading weaknesses must be demonstrated to your teacher. Highlight to your teacher what level of music you can sight read comfortably, perhaps 90% correct fingers and notes at a slower tempo would be acceptable? Then highlight what level of music you would expect yourself to read at. The teacher then can highlight the steps towards your goal.

Identifying your sight reading weaknesses will have to explore a lot of your theoretical knowledge. How well you can play chord, arpeggio and scale patterns, key/time signature forms etc. What your ability of reading groups of notes at a time is like, if you find you are reading dot by dot you must learn how to improve your ability by learning to read intervals of notes, then noticing overall interval patterns. Can you read both hands at the same time?

Sometimes I find that pure memory workers cannot play the piano without looking at their hands. So a big part of a lesson is to teach the student how to keep their eyes on the music without having to look at their hands to play the right notes. I am not going to describe an exact method through this your teacher should be able to help you there if you need this.

The more music you read the more you find that there is a general procedure to the way in which we play the piano. Once you can sight read successfully through say 30 Bach pieces you slowly realize the way in which he writes his music. So when you learn more of his pieces the more they resemble what you have already done. So when it comes to sight reading we see familiar patterns and know immediately how our muscular memory in the hand should react. Understanding how our mind takes stock of these muscular memory blocks is important.

The problem with depending solely on memory work is that we are not connecting a pattern we see on a sheet of music to a reaction to our hands. We separate this procedure, it is like drawing a picture exactly as it should be every time and piecing together the entire picture one bit at a time. This can be tedious and boring for most people, we must learn to approach our music with a macroscopic view slowly improving upon what we sight read until the end product is achieved.

[momopi]

Ahhh the drama! I feel like I'm watching show!

I'll tell this right on because I'm not good niceties really:
I'm sorry but I wont be particularly nice as the others...

Ok this is what I think you need:

1) take a break, relax, go away then go back
2) stop the drama and just practice
3) play what you love to play (tell your teacher, can we skip this and play this instead?)
4) stop comparing yourself to others. it's stupid. of course, people are different. you started late, went to a science high school(yeah yeah I've read it all in my thread https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30910.0.html)
5) stop feeling sorry for yourself, I'm sure you're doing much better than your think you do. you're just exaggerating your problems
6) ask yourself, do I really want to play the piano? Am I enjoying?
7) stop focusing on being a teacher dammit! just focus on the small things that can be achieved today and this week. it's not like a high school exam you can cram in a night and get a high score (then show off to your friends). no, art is different. music, language, literature, visual arts etc... (that's why I really don't get it why some people at uni underestimate the arts hmph)


you know, after coming across so many of your posts, I was led to believe that you just suddenly decided to become a piano teacher without considering the frustration, the headache, the heartache, the effort that you'll experience in piano learning. and yes, suddenly decided to become a piano teacher without a background in piano except that John Thompson's Teaching Little Fingers to play.

Then you'd say, "Those who can't do teach." This is insulting really. I have deep respect for teachers because teaching is one of the most difficult underrated jobs. Teachers need more respect.

And it's not all about whether you have it or not. Do you think those people in conservatory are there simply because they're talented? I'm sure they're there because of hard work and that hard work probably took 5 or 10 years if not more.

Please respect the piano. It is difficult. I myself am having lots of trouble with it. But I'm not giving it up simply because my progress is slower than that of others

[pianowolfi]

Am depressed again. I just can't take it anymore! I had been stuck with lame piano teachers for a year now. I have no more trust in my teachers, all they tell me is to practice more, and that's it... I don't understand why I can't put in so much time, if that is the problem. I reach the point of diminishing returns after only an hour, sometimes an hour and a half. Either my head hurts, or my back, and errors after errors are made.

No one's telling me how to practice more efficiently, and it hurts that they're implying I'm lazy. Plus my classmates think I'm more intelligent and talented than I really am because I'm quite the critic. I have a classmate who has perfect pitch and is working on inventions and Chopin Waltz in C#m. And another who just started this March, he's playing Chopin Minute Waltz. I just don't understand why I can't progress as much. AT LEAST let me progress in piano as much as my guitar! Guitar has been slow and steady for me, and I have many performable pieces. On piano I have only 3 minuets.

I don't understand it at all. Everyone else is sight reading pieces HT until they get it right, using intuitive methods... And yet I'm falling behind. I don't exactly want to be a virtuoso, but the best piano teacher. But apparently the methods I use are lame. Practicing HS, segmental practice, memorizing pieces... Tell me, is this wrong?? But honestly, I can't practice any other way... I had been doing this from the start, because I had trouble sight-reading. It takes too long to learn a piece by sight reading, so I memorize it. So at this rate, I already cut my learning time in half, and yet I'm still behind!!

Am really frustrated now and can't go back to the piano. I feel cheated. I have invested my time learning practice methods, and searching this forum... all for nothing...

It sounds as if you have mainly a problem with reading. I would recommend to work this out first. Memorize all the places of the notes on the staff up to the third ledger line and relate them to the keys. You have to see the related keys in your mind when you're reading. Then work on the coordination of the hands. Don't only work on little minuets, take sonatinas or easy sonatas. To get the hands coordinated takes quite an amount of time. I remember that it took me like two years when I started. Bach inventions are excellent material for this. And try to play some more "modern" stuff like Bartók's 10 little pieces.

[db05]

Thank you all for your input! I am on fire now, actually, more like a slight fever... It has been raining all day, we got very wet and stranded for a while. Don't fret; I am safe and sound.

Few of them will make good teachers. I had lessons, but to quite a large extent I'm a 'natural' and I wouldn't have a CLUE how to teach, certainly not a beginner.

Anyway, I can't honestly say I feel your pain, because that would be kinda pretentious, but I do feel very sympathetic towards your plight. My 2 cents is to pick up some completely new repertoire, something that's not technically demanding, e.g. Für Elise or MacDowell's 'To a Wild Rose' and make it as beautiful as you can.

I disagree. My first guitar teacher was mainly self-taught, he did talk to a lot of conservatory-trained students/ teachers only to find that we was at a higher level of playing, teaching and could explain things better. I would call him a natural, but he started late also- at 15 years old. Not anyone could do as he did, but being self-taught truly has its advantages. The only disadvantages to his method are:
lack of organization
focus on memory/ interpretation as opposed to sight-reading
therefore it takes too long to finish a single piece

FUR ELISE?? *dies*

Well I am sorry if you think I was trying to teach you anything I don't think you will get a complete solution to your problem answered here though. In the end you have to pick yourself up and move on. I feel that demoralizing yourself by comparing yourself with other students will not help you much, so that is an important issue to deal with. Also finding the real reason behind why you are playing the piano, what joy are you drawing from it? Would you play the piano if no one in the world existed but yourself?

No, I probably wouldn't be able to exist without other people. But I know that's not what you meant.  I VERY RARELY play for myself, maybe just to let off steam, or as part of practice. So, probably not. I enjoy teaching what I pick up. I am fascinated by people's learning ability. It has little to do with piano itself. To cut the story short, I like playing piano, but I love teaching more. Does that make sense?

I talked with my teacher today, we really didn't get anywhere as I was afraid of calling her a poor teacher... And she gave these ambiguous answers and I didn't know what to think... I do sight reading on my own now, I started on my old books (grades 0-1), it's a lot easier now since all the pieces are familiar to me. It feels more like short-term memorizing though. I don't know if that's true sight reading.

momopi, I appreciate the no-nonsense post. Really. You didn't have to read if you didn't want to. I guess you just wanted to help. Thanks.

1-2) I got sick and slept a lot. I don't know if that counts as relaxing. I still thought a lot.

3) Er, if I love to play Rach 2, how the hell am I going to convince my teacher?? Seriously, though. None of my favorite pieces are within my level.

4) I only compare myself to compare progress to compare practice methods. (And I'll say it again, I prefer my own tone. ) Now if that is bad, tell me, how would I know I'm missing something if I don't make comparisons?

5) You're right. Make that 3 minuets and one sonatina movement (finally finished it  ). Other than that, am not exaggerating. But I should stop feeling sorry for myself now.

6) There are only a few high-level pieces I really want to play. Otherwise, I'd love to teach.

7) See (6)

Yes, I understand it sounds rash that I decided to become a piano teacher. Though I started piano only a year ago, I wanted to be a teacher practically all my life. I realized traditional schooling doesn't really educate people. My only other option is to teach music.

Then you'd say, "Those who can't do teach." This is insulting really. I have deep respect for teachers because teaching is one of the most difficult underrated jobs. Teachers need more respect.

And it's not all about whether you have it or not. Do you think those people in conservatory are there simply because they're talented? I'm sure they're there because of hard work and that hard work probably took 5 or 10 years if not more.

Please respect the piano. It is difficult. I myself am having lots of trouble with it. But I'm not giving it up simply because my progress is slower than that of others

I am sorry. However there are bad teachers and good teachers. They are not all good. The good teachers I find are already well-respected, albeit the pay is still low. 

If it's 5-10 years, it is not just a matter of hard work, but time. Being able to give that amount of time is a blessing in itself. Some people do not have that. And there are some that see no progress in say, 1 year and then quit. And then there are those who give the time, but do not make it to conservatory.

I am saying that talent is a bigger factor than even I expected. If our progress is slow, maybe there are better things to do for people like us... 

It sounds as if you have mainly a problem with reading. I would recommend to work this out first. Memorize all the places of the notes on the staff up to the third ledger line and relate them to the keys. You have to see the related keys in your mind when you're reading. Then work on the coordination of the hands. Don't only work on little minuets, take sonatinas or easy sonatas. To get the hands coordinated takes quite an amount of time. I remember that it took me like two years when I started. Bach inventions are excellent material for this. And try to play some more "modern" stuff like Bartók's 10 little pieces.

SONATAS?? *dies*

Sorry for all the drama. I'll stick with this course as long as I can; I can't leave the piano for very long.

[db05]

Sir lostin, er... I DID mean to say I hate him. But I don't hate you. You can't do anything about it, but he could have. That was confusing. I need to apologize, but it's awfully hard if I MEANT to hurt somebody. Don't think I can get away without an apology, though. I'm confused again. 

[momopi]

like i said before, sorry, I'm not particularly nice.

I disagree. My first guitar teacher was mainly self-taught, he did talk to a lot of conservatory-trained students/ teachers only to find that we was at a higher level of playing, teaching and could explain things better. I would call him a natural, but he started late also- at 15 years old. Not anyone could do as he did, but being self-taught truly has its advantages. The only disadvantages to his method are:
lack of organization
focus on memory/ interpretation as opposed to sight-reading
therefore it takes too long to finish a single piece

FUR ELISE?? *dies*

Don't compare piano to guitar.
Fur elise won't kill you, don't die.

I VERY RARELY play for myself, maybe just to let off steam, or as part of practice.

This is a big problem.

I do sight reading on my own now, I started on my old books (grades 0-1), it's a lot easier now since all the pieces are familiar to me. It feels more like short-term memorizing though. I don't know if that's true sight reading.

when you practice sight-reading, you practice with pieces you've never played.

i tried sight reading  sonata pathetique (movt2) before even though i'm still intermediate level. of course, it was super slow (slower than snail's pace) with mistakes and my playing lacked dynamics. but i felt proud. you have to be open to the fact that every time you learn a new piece, you'll be making lots of mistakes again.
of course, i never played the piece again since it's way beyond my level.

momopi, I appreciate the no-nonsense post. Really.

thanks

3) Er, if I love to play Rach 2, how the hell am I going to convince my teacher?? Seriously, though. None of my favorite pieces are within my level.

I love playing london bridge for my little niece.

5) You're right. Make that 3 minuets and one sonatina movement (finally finished it  ). Other than that, am not exaggerating. But I should stop feeling sorry for myself now.

you only played for a year. started late, you must be almost 20 right? that's a good progress. actually, very good progress. yes, stop that feeling sorry. because self pity is teh $h!x~~~

6) There are only a few high-level pieces I really want to play. Otherwise, I'd love to teach.

ever heard of SMART?

specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time-bound

Yes, I understand it sounds rash that I decided to become a piano teacher. Though I started piano only a year ago, I wanted to be a teacher practically all my life. My only other option is to teach music.

teach something else. you are being very disrespectful to people who love music. Do not underestimate the arts.

I am sorry. However there are bad teachers and good teachers. They are not all good.

Even a grade school student would know that.

If it's 5-10 years, it is not just a matter of hard work, but time. Being able to give that amount of time is a blessing in itself. Some people do not have that.

I am saying that talent is a bigger factor than even I expected.

common sense.

And there are some that see no progress in say, 1 year and then quit.

I say they are weak-willed.

SONATAS??

to play sonatas is my dream

Frankly, my piano teacher isn't teaching me any techniques. It's just me picking up from my guitar lessons, asking around and other sources.

my teacher neither taught me techniques. just showed them occasionally.

He is the best teacher in the school. He is very special to me. He can't teach me piano, unfortunately... And I hate him for that. I messaged him today, "You can teach me if you wanted to... But you don't... I want a teacher not a reference. I have plenty of those."

Sir lostin, er... I DID mean to say I hate him. But I don't hate you. You can't do anything about it, but he could have.

don't expect teachers to save your ass. teachers can only do so much. you gotta help yourself. grow up kiddo.

I'm confused again. 

yes.

[db05]

like i said before, sorry, I'm not particularly nice.

That's fine. What's important is that you stay out of nonsense. Like this:

Don't compare piano to guitar.
Fur elise won't kill you, don't die.

We're comparing teachers here, not instruments. So I think my argument still stands, unless the one who mentioned it (richard black) clarifies things for us.

Get a sense of humor. *sweatdrop*

when you practice sight-reading, you practice with pieces you've never played.

i tried sight reading  sonata pathetique (movt2) before even though i'm still intermediate level. of course, it was super slow (slower than snail's pace) with mistakes and my playing lacked dynamics. but i felt proud. you have to be open to the fact that every time you learn a new piece, you'll be making lots of mistakes again.

Answering for other people again... But I'll consider it. I do have other books. And you have a point.

teach something else. you are being very disrespectful to people who love music. Do not underestimate the arts.

How am I disrespectful? I find that there are bad teachers everywhere, and I want to be a good one. In traditional schooling, it is next to impossible. I'd teach "something else", but I don't want to waste my time with academics in the context of a flawed system. It is not about underestimating the arts. It is about finding a place where real teaching is still possible.

Even a grade school student would know that.

common sense

Well, I didn't. So did my peers. Back in grade school, all our teachers were considered good.

Just to clarify, are you agreeing that talent is a big factor? If so, then can anyone play the piano if they have a good teacher?

my teacher neither taught me techniques. just showed them occasionally.

don't expect teachers to save your ass. teachers can only do so much. you gotta help yourself. grow up kiddo.

Showing is one good way of teaching. I don't understand. You mean, your teacher showed the technique but never explained it? At least it's better than not having any idea.

I think a good enough teacher can save my ass. Or anyone's ass. Really. That's what I strive to be. A good teacher is still better than any mere reference, imo. Or any amount of unguided practice. What if I pick up a number of bad habits and injure myself? God forbid.



And yes, I'm confused... You can totally ignore me now.

[db05]

I feel like this is just leading quickly me to the place I didn't want to go: NOWHERE! Just going in circles. I did say there was a rant ahead. What was supposed to be letting off steam is making me even more confused. 

nils, please just delete this thread or something.

[concerto_love]

  it's make me sad....

[db05]

it's make me sad....

I'm sorry. 

[tds]

I feel like this is just leading quickly me to the place I didn't want to go: NOWHERE! Just going in circles. I did say there was a rant ahead. What was supposed to be letting off steam is making me even more confused. 

nils, please just delete this thread or something.

take a break from thinking about piano n do something entirely unrelated for about one week or two. u need it

[concerto_love]

db..., I love piano and I really want to study at con... But I'm 15 now, and I can't play really well after all... Maybe tds right, u should take a rest... a while...

[db05]

take a break from thinking about piano n do something entirely unrelated for about one week or two. u need it

I know I should but I can't. I have classes twice a week, and recital... Then exams...

db..., I love piano and I really want to study at con... But I'm 15 now, and I can't play really well after all... Maybe tds right, u should take a rest... a while...

Well I'm older than you; maybe it's too late for me... I don't know...

[concerto_love]

......  .. I dun want to try fashion design..... I want to study music!!

[db05]

......  .. I dun want to try fashion design..... I want to study music!!

You can still be an artist.

[kard]

...one year? o_O
4 performable pieces is quite an achievement in my opinion. Apparently, something must have gone slightly ok for you to have 4 pieces under your belt.

I think the only disadvantage an older learner has is all the images of 'piano' that they bring with them to the process. It really gets in the way of a performer knowing him/herself. I think you really do need a take at least a week's break and stop overthinking. Music-learning is not formulaic. It is a personal process. Just because you subscribe to method A doesn't mean you will achieve what it promises. You probably need to assimilate stuff that makes sense to you and discard what doesn't. Travel from method to method to assist your desire to play.
 
In my opinion, what drives the process is the internal absorption of a specific piece or maybe the actual desire to play it.
I don't really know what to add without assuming some more...so I'm gonna stop here lol.

[db05]

...one year? o_O
4 performable pieces is quite an achievement in my opinion. Apparently, something must have gone slightly ok for you to have 4 pieces under your belt.

4 short, entry-level pieces. Like Minuet in G. Sliiiiiiightly okay, yes. A lot of people ask me if I play this piece or that, and I say- i can't, I can only play this- and they're like- WHAT?? You've been studying for a year!

[kard]

and there you go. 

Don't let people diminish your achievements. Ever. If you are looking at your milestones with disgust, how are you going to take away anything meaningful from them? It's not a contest. You don't win anything by being able to flawlessly fit this or that person's timetable...unless you actually do enter a piano competition lol but yea. you haven't.

Don't be embarrassed that you have limits o_O. The whole point of practice is working on pushing those boundaries farther up so you can be able to enjoy even more music etc. not to magically graduate to some imaginary non-beginner status between lesson 12 and 13. 

[momopi]

4 short, entry-level pieces. Like Minuet in G. Sliiiiiiightly okay, yes. A lot of people ask me if I play this piece or that, and I say- i can't, I can only play this- and they're like- WHAT?? You've been studying for a year!

do they know how to play piano? teach them the F clef, G clef, and the notes, then ask them to play. the person who told you that probably doesn't have any background in piano. if they do, they're lousy human beings. just ignore them.

4) stop comparing yourself to others. it's stupid. of course, people are different. you started late, went to a science high school(yeah yeah I've read it all in my thread https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,30910.0.html)
5) stop feeling sorry for yourself, I'm sure you're doing much better than your think you do. you're just exaggerating your problems

...one year? o_O
4 performable pieces is quite an achievement in my opinion. Apparently, something must have gone slightly ok for you to have 4 pieces under your belt.

I told you so. Really, I don't see why you're not happy. You're making a good progress but you don't see it. Your problems are so minor compare to the problems other people have. Don't let your insecurity eat your heart away.

Eat cookies.

[manjubun]

Well I'm older than you; maybe it's too late for me... I don't know...

Too late? I don't know when you started but I started when I was nearly 19 back in 2006. I taught myself for a year and then just recently got a teacher at college for about half a semester. As long as you want something bad enough and strive for it you'll eventually achieve your goal. I've been killing myself for the past 2 years actually. Practicing 4-5 hours everyday. I even did an 8 hr day once.  never again... I did all this because I kind of wanted the degree that my college had so I had to get good enough to audition into the applied piano class. Sure there are people WAY better than me at the school but I don't really care, as long as I can play songs that I like. I can't even play Bach's minuet in G to tell you the truth I actually picked up piano because I heard an anime song and wanted to play it on piano. I'm starting my third year of piano and currently learning Bach's 13th invention...
I actually have videos of myself playing on youtube if you want to compare yourself to me (not in a bad way.) Message me if you want the link. BTW none of my videos are classical songs since I don't really like listening to or playing classical music... Good luck practicing! 

[lostinidlewonder]

It is a shame db that you shared your frustration with your teacher and she didn't take time to address it in detail. I know a lot of teachers just can't be bothered with it because it forces them to understand a student personally. If you do not know your student through and through you cannot help them with their major problems which they themselves have no been successful in improving at a constant rate. It isn't your fault really, perhaps you can vocalize more strongly your desire to focus on sight reading in your lessons and suggest you do that instead of the normal lesson for the next few. If your teacher does not do this then what is the point in being with them? You might as well learn from a book!

We never will be satisfied with how effective we are at studying the piano, it is forever improving. We can plateau for a moment but we don't regress hopefully. It is a fatal disease to have when you feel you cannot move on because you have not done the best. Like the insecurity of memorizing and mastering a passage before moving onto the next, or not playing in a public performance because you don't think you can play the piece 100%. We must take risks or we will never get anywhere. A good teacher can turn around your perspective if you are trapped in the thinking you are currently suffering within.

When I have students of mine observing me or more advanced students play they are always encouraged, not discouraged, I make sure of it. I get some that say, "Oh I wish I could play it like that, or I could never play it that well etc." I immediately let them know how much work is put into the music to make it so well. Perhaps it wasn't all the time spent on that particular piece, but the thousands of hours of piano practice which led up to learning it. There is always a lot of work behind producing good music I don't care how many people try to disagree with it. No one can just immediately play and sound like a master, it takes countless hours of practice. So a bad teacher will make you have to do 5000 hours where a good one will show you how to do it in 1000. So spending more money on a good teacher in the end is cheaper.

[db05]

The ones who imply that I should be on a higher level are my fellow students. They like my playing, but are surprised that I can only play a few pieces, nothing else... It's really disturbing/ annoying sometimes, can't practice around them. They say I'm a perfectionist; I just want to hear music, not seemingly random notes with seemingly random duration. 

Edit: And I know some teachers and students on here would be appalled by my (lack of) progress. (Sir bernhard et.al. come to mind.)

Too late? I don't know when you started but I started when I was nearly 19 back in 2006. I taught myself for a year and then just recently got a teacher at college for about half a semester. As long as you want something bad enough and strive for it you'll eventually achieve your goal. I've been killing myself for the past 2 years actually. Practicing 4-5 hours everyday. I even did an 8 hr day once.  never again... I did all this because I kind of wanted the degree that my college had so I had to get good enough to audition into the applied piano class. Sure there are people WAY better than me at the school but I don't really care, as long as I can play songs that I like. I can't even play Bach's minuet in G to tell you the truth I actually picked up piano because I heard an anime song and wanted to play it on piano. I'm starting my third year of piano and currently learning Bach's 13th invention...
I actually have videos of myself playing on youtube if you want to compare yourself to me (not in a bad way.) Message me if you want the link. BTW none of my videos are classical songs since I don't really like listening to or playing classical music... Good luck practicing! 

I do not even have the time+endurance to do 2 hours a day. Being able to push yourself for 4 hours is a milestone in itself.

Don't you know that invention > minuet in G? You're waaaaaaay forward. I like classical, can't even compare it to pop... I don't know...


Sir lostin,

Thanks for the advice... I don't really like my teacher's playing to be honest. But THAT gets me nowhere. It's not like "I'll never be able to play like that." More like, "Damn, if only I could play that, it would sound so much better.  " or "I've been hearing that Minute Waltz for over a month now, and it's not improving!!  " A lot of ego in there, I admit. Nothing worse than hearing something above your level played not-so-cleanly.

I like my teacher. She's nice, however she is so caught up in this old-school curriculum and can't adjust. Can't blame her; it did work for her. As usual, I tend to fill in the gaps on my own. It's really frustrating sometimes. Like sight-reading and polishing pieces, we don't really do that in the lesson. I just hammered that on my own, showed my teacher, and she said, okay. A bit faster and I can play it on the next recital. No more comment on what I can do better. 

Well, the show must go on. I have to play guitar, too.

Edit: Still very confused atm, I don't feel like touching the instruments at all! Just sitting here... Thinking, feeling...

[db05]

Update:

Recital today was a mess. I was nervous even before I woke up. I couldn't eat breakfast (if that matters). I didn't practice on a piano before the performance. So it's sort of cold (if that matters). The mistakes were obvious. Luckily, teacher wasn't there to watch, but I still reported the error.

Similar mistakes made me feel better, but when it was some advanced students' time to play, I just had to sneak out and bang a piano (i.e. play/ review a piece) in frustration.

What the hell.

I keep telling myself, it's my first time playing piano in a recital, but that doesn't seem to work. I think this recital thing is getting old too soon. I don't even feel excited for the next one, although I tell myself I'll be Bach with a vengeance.

[mr music]

I too could not eat before a performance (trumpet), got so nervous the performance would be just terrible in fact worse than terrible, I don’t know how they all sat though it (the adjudicator would have had no choice!).

Until one day I joined my brother at the nursing home (retirement village) no not to stay, but to play.

He would play the piano & I the trumpet. You have an instant audience (they are usually are not going anywhere) and doesn’t matter what you play. Anyway, after a couple of weeks my nerves disappeared, vanished.