Ravel's Sonatine

[rachlisztchopin]

has this topic been covered?
well anyways, it seems there isn't much talk about his sonatine or piano music period (besides gaspard la nuit) his piano concerto in G is one of my favs
anyways after i finish studying pavane for a dead princess i plan on working on his sonatine
any one played this piece or have the same love i have for it?
if so any comments on the piece or suggestions on learning the piece? it seems to be the hardest sonatine ever written as far as i know (much harder then clementi sonatines) well anyways thank you and have a nice day
i look forward to reading your replies

[Sketchee]

I love it.  I've played it and performed the whole piece.  It's one piece people always remember.  It's different than the rest of my repertoire with Liszt, Chopin and Beethoven; People recognize the sound of their music as distinctly "classical music".  Ravel has such a different sound than the classicists, romantics or even others categorized with him as impressionists.

Overall the piece isn't that hard once you realize that they chordal. At that point it's just applying the rhythm.  This harder part is the musical aspects.  There are nice changes in dynamics in the first movement, and very important ones in the third.  There's also thematic material that links the three movements that you have to make clear.  The second movement is march like and dance-like.  The stacatto markings really give a lot of input on what he wants this movement to sound like.

Ravel is pretty particular and he puts a relatively large amount of markings on his scores.  They're in french instead of italian too--as was the nationistic tendency at the time--so you may need to look up some unfamiliar terms.

His piano music in general are all pretty nice, I think.  He had a very developed style even in his earliest raw works like the Menuet Antique.  You could probably learn the short 1913 Prelude and A maniere de...  pieces in no time since their among his easiest.  I love Ravel.  He also has been influenced a lot by Liszt which you can see in pieces like Jeau Deaux.  He's like a classical Debussy and a baroque Liszt.  It's all there.

I've been working on Liszt's Sonetto 123 del Petrarca and when I play the beginning it seems eerily similar to Ravel's Oiseaux Tristes from Mirroirs complete with hand crossing.

Gaspard is a bit over emphasized out of his works just due to it's difficulty, but Ravel has other interesting piano pieces.  I'm suprised that he's not discussed more or that say Mirroirs or Le Tombeau don't pop up more often.  I've heard a few people mention playing movements of these, but anyone around here know the complete set?  Le Tombeau is shorter than Gaspard timewise and Mirroirs altogether is about the same length. Still six movements each is intimidating and taking on the challenge of Gaspard is tempting.  I guess that's why I stuck with Sonatine.   

[rachlisztchopin]

wow thanx for that helpful advice. I think I'm going to go with the ravel sonatine after i complete Pavane for a dead princess. I even plan on eventually trying to learn Piano Concerto in G after I complete Grieg's Piano concerto and plan on trying the Ravel at the Interlochen Concerto Competition. What is you opinion on this concerto? I think it is amazing. 

[DarkWind]

Actually the Sonatine isn't very difficult. The musicality will require some thought, and one has to wonder if this piece is in a major or minor key. That's one of the things I like about Ravel. Is the piece in a major or minor key? You'll debate it for ages. Anyways, if you could play the Grieg Concerto and the Sonatine, then you can definetely play his Piano Concerto in G. It's pretty easy. However, if you want a challenge, learn his Piano Concerto in D, more commonly known as the left-hand Piano Concerto, written for Peter Wittgenstein. It's a lovely piece with many jazz influences, just like the other concerto. The only difficult part about the sonatine is that sometimes the fingers get into rather awkard positions. I would reccommend just seperating the chords that compromise the first movement, and practice learning them, then begin the rythm. Anyways, Ravel's piano music is the most beautiful piano music ever written. The Menuet Antique, La Valse, Le Tombeau de Couperin, Ma Mere L'Oye (for 2 hands), Gaspard de la Nuit, Serenade Grotesque, whatever! They are all unique and exquisite.

[julie391]

ravel has been a little difficult to get into - for me, but this work has opened me up to his style more.
along with gaspard its probably the best introduction to him.

[fnork]

wow thanx for that helpful advice. I think I'm going to go with the ravel sonatine after i complete Pavane for a dead princess. I even plan on eventually trying to learn Piano Concerto in G after I complete Grieg's Piano concerto and plan on trying the Ravel at the Interlochen Concerto Competition. What is you opinion on this concerto? I think it is amazing. 

I love that concerto! Even though I like the left hand-concerto even more But I ordered the sheet music for the G major concerto, and it doesn't seem to be that difficult. Most of it seems to be comfertable under your hands, and most repeated notes-figures are much easier than I thought.
On the other hand, I'm sure the left hand-concerto is extremely hard. My teacher mentioned that he only saw the sheet music, but only that made him feel bad/sick   

About the sonatine... I'm going to play the first movement in concert - tonight Wish me luck! I'll put it up here later, since the concert will get recorded. I want to learn the whole sonatine, it's really really beautiful... What troubles me with the sonatine is still the first page with the 32-notes, and the part where there are 32-notes later in the piece (page 3 I think). I'm usually stressed when I play it, and hit the wrong notes sometimes.

[shasta]

I think Fnork had a posting on the Ravel previously...

I did it a decade or so ago and still play it.  It's one of those pieces that my hands have remembered, even though I cannot visualize the score for the life of me.  Weird.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm playing three movements of the Sonatine as part of my concert program in Feburary 2005.

I find that tempo control and paying close attention to legato ties and absence of it in the first movement is important to produce the different subtle sound qualities.  For example the absense of the legato over the last three triple tailed notes in bar7.  No sustain pedal should exist there, and it is an easy thing to neglect.

I always over played the main voice, play it very loudly, so it is easy to control in performance. First movment also it is needed that you have an EFFICIENT hand raising and dropping technique for matter of excecution and phrasing. Because every time the melody in the RH sounds you are usualy raising the hand and dropping onto it with 4 or 5.

I think there is room in movement 1 and 2 to isolate the main voice a little more, sometimes play it very slightly EARLIER than the notes which are supposed to be played with it. In Debussy, Chopin, Liszt etc, we can usually do the opposite by letting the lower notes sound first then the singing voice comes in just after, doing that in Ravel's Sonatine here would be wrong in my opinion, that may be a natural habit for many of us when we start to put our own interpretation over it.

Playing the melody very slight earlier now and again, it can produce a very nice effect instead of hearing the voice drone on and on and always coming together with the rest of the stuff.

Movment 1 and 2 are really closely related, both have very similar playing structure. In movement 1 you are playing single notes but based on a chordal structure, in movement 2 you are just playing those chordal structures as whole chords. 3 stands a little more on its own.

3rd movement i think you have to have very good accent ability, again the efficiency of your hand raising and dropping to produce that natural accent.  I think the 3rd is the harder of the three movement, it goes through a lot of different moods and tempo/volume changes, to make that all flow nicely and not make it sound like step wise playing, or playing just bits and peices tied together, this is the challenge. How to use each different part to introduce the other.

[Sketchee]

I agree that the third movement seems less related than the first two movements do together.  For the sake of time I played the first movement in the first recital of the semester and the second and third together for the last.  I think it worked out well that way.

In the third movement especially, pay attention to the return of thematic material from the first two movements for your interpretation.  For example, in the "Meme Mouvt Tranquille"/"Plus Lent" sections the theme from the first movement.  The accents reveal a bit of a duet with the accented sixteenth notes as a supporting melody in measure four and all the similar section.  I always really enjoy bringing out those accented sixteenth notes as a call to which the higher melody responds as the real melody.  It's makes for a nice duet, so you have to make sure the left hand isn't too loud even with the opening dynamic at forte.  There are some other call and responses later with hand crossing that can be treaed similarly.

It's nice to be talking about something that isn't a Chopin etude and the usual stuff.

[Nightscape]

Yeah, I've been working on this piece for awhile... actually it was the last of Ravel's piano pieces that I heard.

I think that Miroirs, Gaspard, and Le Tombeau are not discussed so often because they are such monstrous pieces to learn.... Ravel is one of the hardest composers to play (not just his piano music, but also his chamber music and certainly his orchestral pieces).  What is nice though, is that Ravel employs all that virtuosity not for its own sake, but instead to further musical ends.  In other words, although the music is extremely difficult, it never feels like the performer is "showing off" (ie... 'look how fast I can play!').

Ravel is truly an enigma.  What amazes me most is that as a child, he showed no particular talent in music... yet he is now regarded among the best composers.

It just goes to show you don't have to be a child prodigy to be great!

[fnork]

Yeah, and they say that he never was a good pianist either. I heard his friends sometimes joked about what he was worse at - playing piano or conducting
I agree that his orchestral music is difficult too... I've heard far more bad performances of his orchestral music than I've heard good performances.

His piano music seems to be very advanced indeed, but not always. I don't think that "Le Tombeau de couperin" is a "monsrous piece to learn", for instance, although it's very hard. But if that's why they aren't discussed, I guess people shouldn't talk about Chopins hardest etudes either...
Anyway, I learned the prelude from Le Tombeau this summer. I can't play it well now since I stopped practicing it. It is a bit uncomfertable to play and you have to have a very light touch to do it right, but I think if you practice enough you'll learn it. I've taken a look at the Forlane too, nothing difficult there I think. The Menuet isn't technically demanding either. Then the toccata and the Riguadon are probably very difficult to play, but not impossible either. The fugue is just hard to memorize and to bring out every voice clearly.

[DarkWind]

Yeah, and they say that he never was a good pianist either. I heard his friends sometimes joked about what he was worse at - playing piano or conducting
I agree that his orchestral music is difficult too... I've heard far more bad

Actually, your information is highly incorrect. He was a spectacular pianist. He was at levels of musicality and technique of around Chopin's 4th Ballade, and even more. His conducting was rather good, and was able to sight-conduct his own Rapsodie Espagnole. Also, the toccata is really difficult to learn with it's painful hand shifting so fast...

[rachlisztchopin]

Yeah, and they say that he never was a good pianist either. I heard his friends sometimes joked about what he was worse at - playing piano or conducting
I agree that his orchestral music is difficult too... I've heard far more bad

Actually, your information is highly incorrect. He was a spectacular pianist. He was at levels of musicality and technique of around Chopin's 4th Ballade, and even more. His conducting was rather good, and was able to sight-conduct his own Rapsodie Espagnole. Also, the toccata is really difficult to learn with it's painful hand shifting so fast...

ok i thought he was a good pianist

[fnork]

Yeah, and they say that he never was a good pianist either. I heard his friends sometimes joked about what he was worse at - playing piano or conducting
I agree that his orchestral music is difficult too... I've heard far more bad

Actually, your information is highly incorrect. He was a spectacular pianist. He was at levels of musicality and technique of around Chopin's 4th Ballade, and even more. His conducting was rather good, and was able to sight-conduct his own Rapsodie Espagnole. Also, the toccata is really difficult to learn with it's painful hand shifting so fast...

Are there recordings where he's playing? I'd love to hear it. All I've heard is that he wasn't a good pianist and he couldn't play some of his own pieces. Wasn't he supposed to premiere his Piano concerto in Gmajor, but decided not to in the last moment?
I'm not surprised at all that the man could "sight-conduct" HIS OWN music - he wrote it, didn't he?! What's so surprising about that? It's like when people say that oh, Rachmaninov didn't have the time to practice his third concerto on a real piano so he went to the states with the sheet music and practiced the music on a piece of board or something. Nothing surprising about that either - after all, he wrote the music. Would he even need to practice it? Sightconducting stuff you've written yourself is something completely different than just sightconduct a random piece of music....

[DarkWind]

Ravel might know the piece, since he wrote it. But tell me, do you think that the performer knew it? Do you also think that they might have not had any rehearsals with him? Exactly. Anyways, Ravel made only one or so recordings. One of them was piano roll of his Pavane, since he was angry with how melancholic some people played the piece and wanted a recording to show it would be played. The tempo is much more different than what is normally found among the "sad" Pavane intepretations. It should be thought of as more of a passage into another world, a happy rejoicing. Also, he, at the last moment, could not play the Piano Concerto in G Major simply due to health reasons. This was only for a tour in Europe, however. He did play it several times in public, I believe. Then, he deteriorated in health, and send Marguerite Long, to who the piece was dedicated to, to perform it. There is a recording of Marguerite Long playing the Concerto with Ravel conducting it, although the fact if Ravel was conducting in the recording has been debated many times, so it may not be him conducting at all. There were some pieces he could not play, one reason being his small hands. However, in terms of musicality, he was supposedly a very expressive player. His technical prowess, however, wasn't totally great, but good enough.

[fnork]

Ravel might know the piece, since he wrote it. But tell me, do you think that the performer knew it? Do you also think that they might have not had any rehearsals with him? Exactly. Anyways, Ravel made only one or so recordings. One of them was piano roll of his Pavane, since he was angry with how melancholic some people played the piece and wanted a recording to show it would be played. The tempo is much more different than what is normally found among the "sad" Pavane intepretations. It should be thought of as more of a passage into another world, a happy rejoicing. Also, he, at the last moment, could not play the Piano Concerto in G Major simply due to health reasons. This was only for a tour in Europe, however. He did play it several times in public, I believe. Then, he deteriorated in health, and send Marguerite Long, to who the piece was dedicated to, to perform it. There is a recording of Marguerite Long playing the Concerto with Ravel conducting it, although the fact if Ravel was conducting in the recording has been debated many times, so it may not be him conducting at all. There were some pieces he could not play, one reason being his small hands. However, in terms of musicality, he was supposedly a very expressive player. His technical prowess, however, wasn't totally great, but good enough.

Thanks for your reply. Have you heard the G major concerto which he (supposedly) conducted? Do you know if it's availeble on CD? I'd love to hear it. I've heard from some that it's supposed to be a great recording. Is the Pavane availeble too?

I'm guessing that the people who said he was "bad" at playing piano perhaps were piano professors or people who think that if you can't play all of chopins etudes, you're a bad pianist. If seen from their point of view, perhaps they could see Ravel as a bad pianist. But I'm sure most people wouldn't judge him as a very bad pianist if they heard him... I don't know. But if he could play Chopins 4th ballade or similar things, he must have been a really good pianist, I think. Are there other recordings where he conducts or plays himself (perhaps other composers music)? You seem to know a lot, so I'm asking you...

[maxy]

I know there is a recording of Ravel playing piano in "Chansons Madécasses".  The piano part really is not hard.

I've heard a funny story about some concert with Ravel.  He was playing one easy chamber piece (don't remember what) and in the program, the following piece was much harder.  After finishing piece #1, he traded place with his page turner for piece #2...

[DarkWind]

Ravel might know the piece, since he wrote it. But tell me, do you think that the performer knew it? Do you also think that they might have not had any rehearsals with him? Exactly. Anyways, Ravel made only one or so recordings. One of them was piano roll of his Pavane, since he was angry with how melancholic some people played the piece and wanted a recording to show it would be played. The tempo is much more different than what is normally found among the "sad" Pavane intepretations. It should be thought of as more of a passage into another world, a happy rejoicing. Also, he, at the last moment, could not play the Piano Concerto in G Major simply due to health reasons. This was only for a tour in Europe, however. He did play it several times in public, I believe. Then, he deteriorated in health, and send Marguerite Long, to who the piece was dedicated to, to perform it. There is a recording of Marguerite Long playing the Concerto with Ravel conducting it, although the fact if Ravel was conducting in the recording has been debated many times, so it may not be him conducting at all. There were some pieces he could not play, one reason being his small hands. However, in terms of musicality, he was supposedly a very expressive player. His technical prowess, however, wasn't totally great, but good enough.

Thanks for your reply. Have you heard the G major concerto which he (supposedly) conducted? Do you know if it's availeble on CD? I'd love to hear it. I've heard from some that it's supposed to be a great recording. Is the Pavane availeble too?

I'm guessing that the people who said he was "bad" at playing piano perhaps were piano professors or people who think that if you can't play all of chopins etudes, you're a bad pianist. If seen from their point of view, perhaps they could see Ravel as a bad pianist. But I'm sure most people wouldn't judge him as a very bad pianist if they heard him... I don't know. But if he could play Chopins 4th ballade or similar things, he must have been a really good pianist, I think. Are there other recordings where he conducts or plays himself (perhaps other composers music)? You seem to know a lot, so I'm asking you...

Of course I know a lot, I'm like, the Ravel know-it-all. Anyways, Faure, if my memory serves correct, during his piano lessons, commented on how well Ravel played the piano, with very good, controlled, emotion. In fact, Ravel almost became a pianist had he not become a composer. Also, he won a piano performance contest at the Conservatoire, but could never seem to win a composing contest. How ironic. Anyways, no, I do not think he recorded any other composers' pieces. If you look for a while, you'll eventually find the Ravel(Maybe)-Long recording on a CD. I remember seeing it as part of a set a while back ago.

[Sketchee]

Also, he won a piano performance contest at the Conservatoire, but could never seem to win a composing contest. How ironic.

Sonatine itself was written for a compositional contest to write a Sonatine.   His was the only entry ... and he didn't win because it was a few measures too long to qualify!

[DarkWind]

Also, the newspaper holding the contest went out of business before he could actually get anything out of it.

[fnork]

If anyone's interrested, I played the first movement in concert last monday, and I just uploaded the recording of it. Unfortenately, the performance suffers from many stupid errors, and I was too stressed when I played it... I was quite happy with the performance at first, but when I listened to it again, I didn't like it very much.

Perhaps there's someone here who can give me suggestions so I can improve it

Here's the link: www.angelfire.com/music6/pianostuff17

/Martin

[Sketchee]

Here's an interesting essay about Ravel's Sonata for Piano, Violin and Cello: https://www.richard-dowling.com/RavelTrio.html

The Sonatina [sic] for piano was published by Durand in 1905, and up to 1928 two accidentals were still missing in the last movement-bars 13 and 15, where there should be sharps before the D's in the bass. (Note that when the figure returns shortly in another key, the G's are already in the key-signature.) Ravel was disgusted beyond measure when I pointed this out to him and he immediately sat down to write a letter to Messrs. Durand which by now must have burnt a hole in their files. He alluded to this several times later, with a satisfied grin, and it appealed to his sense of humour that he should have to come to England to be told of this horreur.

There is a mention of Sonatine, but overall it's about his compositional technique. Ravel intimitely studied each instrument and what was possible (even if it wasn't easy).  It's no wonder that Ravel's transcriptions are so rich and popular.  I think what's fun about playing Ravel on the piano is that you suddenly are creating sounds effects that you never heard the instrument make before.  I think reading about how composers compose and their lives is fascinating ... and I consider history my least favorite subject

[fnork]

A question for people who have played it: I think the whole first page is really hard to get right. Of course it's possible to play, but it's hard sometimes to make the melody sound clearly, and the 32-notes as quiet as possible. The most difficult places to do this, for me at least, is in measure 6, 8 and 9. (as you can hear on my recording of it here: www.angelfire.com/music6/pianostuff17 )
In measure 6 and 8, where the melody goes C#, D, E, I have huge difficulties in making just the melody heard. The problem is that the 32-notes suddently get a lot louder there and they are difficult to control.
So my question is....obviously... what should I do? How should I practice to get it right? I've been trying slow practice, but it doesn't work very well. Should I practice the melody only? Or 32-notes only? Help!

[Sketchee]

One thing that helped me with this part of the piece was to play the chords as blocks of chords.  That helped with the controlling voicing.  For those three notes that you mention in particular, C#, D, E I remember having a similar problem; most other instances of the thirty second notes you play the thirty second notes after the melody note but suddenly you have the G and G# at the same time.  So chords and then practicing each of the voices seperately fixed the problem for me

[lostinidlewonder]

The C#, D E section. It might be helpful to practice without the middle finger. That is, neglect the G# and Gnatural in measure 6. So the excersise becomes simply a 5,1 finger excersise. Give weight to the 5th of course. For the G# i use 3, and then when the middle finger moves to G natural i use 2. During the D, E melody movement the 2nd finger acts as the unmoving centre and has to be a balancing pivot point for the hand.

[fnork]

Perhaps my problem has to do with the fingering. As you can see, he wants it to be legago. Now, I have long fingers, so I play with the 4th finger on C# and 5th on D and E, so I have more natural legato. Meanwhile, the first and second fingers are playing the 32notes, instead of 1 and 3 as lostindidlewonder suggested. It feels comfertable to play this way for me, but perhaps it makes me lose control over the melody line, I don't know... what do you think about my fingering?

By the way, how do you play the part on the 3rd page where the 32notes come back again? It's supposed to be legato there too - do you let the pedal do the job or are you trying to play legato the whole way? I play legato until A usually, then I use the pedal...

[lostinidlewonder]

I think that to aim for finger legato in this peice is limited. Because the quality is produced from the pedal more than the fingers. I mean it depends on how you strike the note. Some people, to keep their flow need to hold the note down, some can just strike it and move on. It is all a varitaion of personality and style. But when the pedal is held it makes little difference if you hold a note down or just carry on with a very stacatto touch.

I use the 3 on the G# until it changes to a Gnatural then i use 2. For me it keeps the hand in a relaxed posture. If i maintain 3 all the time then i have to stretch with 3 to hit the G#, then contract to hit the Gnatural, this movement is an unnecessary finger movement for me, maybe for some it's ok, we all have different hands _!!.

Chopin said Rh 1,2,3,4,5 on E,Gb,Ab,Bb,B and Lh 5,4,3,2,1 on F,Gb,Ab,Bb,C  is the ideal posture for the hand when playing the piano. I always strive for this posture when playing anything, it really acts as a good compass to guide your technique and finger choices.

[musicaannie]

Hello.I'm playing Ravel's Sonatine for my Dip ABRSM.I think Ravel is a composer who is very profound in his musical thoughts.I love Sonatine!!!xDIt's just so expressive and though its 20th century...it still sounds somewhere...out there.I think if you don't play with your heart for this piece,you won't bring out the feeling in this beautiful piece.Actually technically I think this piece is not very difficult.It's just that we have to play with emotion and feeling.Also,it is easy to rush in this piece(esp the first and third movements) because of the quick and nimble "accompaniment" notes.However,if you rush,the effect of the piece comes out all wrong and the feelings that are potrayed are also gone.And,take time to breathe!!!!!Don't just go on and on and on like a robot.Okay.I hope this advice is useful for you!If I have said something wrong,feel free to correct me!I really need some advice for my playing for the exam!Thanks=)

[musicsdarkangel]

I absolutely adore the sonatine.

I have a friend who plays it beautifully, and up to tempo, better than any professional I've heard.


Ironically, she has small hands.