Digitals vs. acoustic - bottom line?

[chprout]

Hi again.  I just have one question and it's probably been disussed on here and beaten to death.

I know that many of you, from reading your posts, think highly of various digital pianos on the market.  I've heard they are great, and if you need to take them out, they're the only answer, as you can't move an acoustic around.

But...that said...if you do not need to worry about transporting your piano, or space in your home is not an issue, would you say that there's truly nothing quite like learning/playing on a good acoustic piano? 

I have run into many people lately in music stores, etc, who say, wow, the new digitals are fantastic.  But, they are also quick to admit that even so, they would prefer to play on a good acoustic any day.

[mound]

If space, owning my own home, and MONEY were of no issue? I would be buying a grand piano this afternoon.

That being said, those are issues, and as such, I practice on a Roland RD-700 digital piano.  Even the highest end digitals are not the same as an acoustic.  Yes, they are very well sampled from high-end grand pianos, and the weighted keys, graded hamer action and touch sensitivity are all quite good these days, making them more than suitable for learning and practicing for anybody but the most advanced students.  But, yes, clearly there is a difference,  in the shear physics and mass of the piano, when you sink your arm weight into a grand and feel the vibrations in your body, feel that mass that you're moving every so subtly, and the overtones are ringing, the room around you filled with sound  that is not electronically generated, the experience is different, and in my opinion (probably most everybody else's I'm sure) a better experience. What would you prefer to experience, sitting in a theatre listening to an orchestra perform your favorite piece, or listening in your living room to a recording of the exact same performance, through your high-end stereo system?  Both will sound quite good but if time, distance and ticket availability were of no issue, I think the choice would be clear.


Yes, I would choose a real acoustic grand piano over a digital piano any day. But in light of the fact that I rent, have no room for such a beast, and no money to buy one, I choose the next best thing.

That said, as an aside, my uncle is going to start his 6 year old daughter on piano lessons. I told him a digital console would be a more wise decision than some 100yr old upright "take it for free if you move it" - or even spending $1000 (USD) on a 30yr old Yamaha upright. Why? The following reasons were my rationale (assuming the digital piano is 88 weighted, graded hammer action keys):

1. If you buy an old upright piano, you'll have to pay to move it.

2. The old piano will require maintenance, regular tuning and perhaps repair.

3. If she chooses not to stick with it, you're left with a 900lb hunk of wood and steel in your living room, which, if you spent considerable money bringing it back to life, is still not going to have resale value.

4. A digital piano will never go out of tune.
5. A digital piano lets you use headphones
6. A digital piano often has "practice tools" built into it.
7. A digital piano is easy to move
8. A digital piano is easy to re-sell
9. Finally, if she sticks with it for a few years and is excelling, invest in a grand.

I told him I'd look for some links to digital console models. Any recommendations?

-Paul

-Paul

[xvimbi]

Hi again.  I just have one question and it's probably been disussed on here and beaten to death.

Apparently not...

But...that said...if you do not need to worry about transporting your piano, or space in your home is not an issue, would you say that there's truly nothing quite like learning/playing on a good acoustic piano?

There is nothing lika an acoustic piano, just like there is nothing like the Niagara Falls, nothing like the smell of a fresh lily, nothing like a good cup of tea in the afternoon and a scone with double-slotted cream.

I have run into many people lately in music stores, etc, who say, wow, the new digitals are fantastic.  But, they are also quick to admit that even so, they would prefer to play on a good acoustic any day.

yep!

I need to repeat myself: dgital and acoustic pianos are different beasts. They appear to be similar, but taking one as a subsutite for the other would be foolish. Apples and oranges.

[BoliverAllmon]

digitals cannot compare to the complete sonorities of a good acoustic grand. That being said though digitals sometimes have to be bought out of necessity. If you have a choice though, then I would go with the acoustic.

boliver

[RJones]

Playing on a full size grand piano that has been tuned and regulated is an amazing experience that can't be duplicated (yet) by a digital instrument, but then again the digital instrument is a different beast.

I'm about to go out on a limb (and likely get slammed) but I don't believe that given the current state-of-the-art in digitals, that there is any reason for someone to purchase an upright acoustic piano any more. A properly configured digital will likely sound better (yes better) without all the issues and overhead of tuning, squeeks, rattles, etc that are invevitable with an acoustic instrument. This is like the argument of people who prefer records over CDs or tube amps over solid state.

That's not to say that I would prefer a digital over a grand. The experience of playing a grand is as much about how it feels as how it sounds. So far, digitals don't include the kind of feedback that you'll get from a grand (but I'm sure that it's coming).

Go out and try the latest digital instrument (Yamaha CLP-170/175, CVP-309, Roland HP107, HPi7, etc.) and you'll understand what I mean. Upright over CURRENT digitall; I don't think so. Digital over grand; not yet. but I think it is coming.

Digital pianos suffer some failings that are easily resolved which gives a bad impression:

1) Typically, internal amplification and speakers are not the best for the job. This is done to control costs but almost all digitals have line-out connections so that external sound reinforcement with quality amps and speakers are possible.

2) Limited EQ capabilities and poor instructions on using those that are available. The basic tone of a digital instrument is designed to be modiified to suit the individual, yet very few people actually do this. The basic sound is designed to appeal to a broad audience and shouldn't be taken as the end all end be all.

3) applied effects such as reverb and chorus can be adjusted to appeal to the user but lack of knowledge usually limits people from tweaking the sound. Not surprising since few people would try to tweak the sound of the acoustic piano. The difference is if you don't like what you do to the digital, you can always change it back.

4) Volume!!! I can't stress this enough. The WORST feature ever put on digital pianos is a volume control. Piano's are loud instruments that fill a soundscape. Turning a digital piano down in volume and the playing forte results in a VERY negative, almost lifeless feeling. I understand the need for volume control, but we shouldn't judge an instrument when it is set unusually low.

5) Headphones!!! Again I understand the need (I use them myself all the time) BUT, headphones move the soundstage to the middle of your head which is extremely un-natural (actually kind of entertaining). Obviously if you are trying to simulate a natural environement, you wouldn't want a 7' Yamaha sitting in the middle of your head.

6) Artifacts due to sample looping and compression. This is very quickly going away as processing power increases and digital memory prices drop. I believe that the average person would be hard pressed to notice anything with the current models, but it still exists (even if you could only see it on a scope or in a sample editing software package).

I'll get of my soap box now and await the storm.

Rodney

[Daniel_piano]

I think digital piano are fantastic but yet I don't think they can substitute something, they should be considered different instruments like organ is different from piano
What's the deal with always substituting "this" or "this" instead of "this" and "this"

Anyway if someone believe that a digital cannot substitute an acoustic grand piano then it can't also substitute an upright one
Maybe the problem is that the difference between an upright and a grand is much overstimated (and I've played on both)

The feeling of an acoustic can't be replaced by a digital
And this applies to grand and upright as well

The feeling oh having a wooden container that vibrate when you play and that  make the floor and the walls tremble
Even an upright one when good (think Yamaha U3) is a powerful instrument that can give you feelings that you can't get from a digital

On the other hand the feeling you get on a digital can't be replaced by an acoustic
So it's not a matter of what is better, it's just that they're different instruments

But I don't agree at all that grand is powerful and upright are not
A good upright keeps all the good the powerful quality of an acoustic instrument so it's not thousand less good than a grand just hundred times less good

So if someone believe that a digital can substitute a grand then I agree that he/she should also believe that the digital can substitue the upright

But believing that you cannot substitute a grand with a digital piano while you can substitute a upright with a digital is absurd
it's not like the grand is piano while the upright is toy instrument with not loud and good enough sound


Daniel

[xvimbi]

5) Headphones!!! Again I understand the need (I use them myself all the time) BUT, headphones
move the soundstage to the middle of your head which is extremely un-natural (actually kind of entertaining). Obviously if you are trying to simulate a natural environement, you wouldn't want a 7' Yamaha sitting in the middle of your head.

Haha, this reminds me of a silly joke (adapted to the pianoforum):

The last thing that was going through the head of the truck driver of a piano moving company when he ran his truck into a wall with 50 miles per hour was a 9-foot Boesendorfer.

Sorry.

[Daniel_piano]

5) Headphones!!! Again I understand the need (I use them myself all the time) BUT, headphones move the soundstage to the middle of your head which is extremely un-natural (actually kind of entertaining). Obviously if you are trying to simulate a natural environement, you wouldn't want a 7' Yamaha sitting in the middle of your head.

Now, I had headphones installed in my Yamaha U1 upright acoustical piano
It's quite and unexpensive and effective addition

Daniel

[claudio]

4) Volume!!! I can't stress this enough. The WORST feature ever put on digital pianos is a volume control. Piano's are loud instruments that fill a soundscape. Turning a digital piano down in volume and the playing forte results in a VERY negative, almost lifeless feeling. I understand the need for volume control, but we shouldn't judge an instrument when it is set unusually low.

can support this. i am only using a digital (kawai cn390) which is quite nice. however, when i have finished a piece i go out to the local bechstein shop and try it out on a grand 

studying with a volume control feature makes listening, exercising and controlling of piano and forte very difficult.

what i like about it though is the possibility to make it sound like some other instruments, e.g. chembalo. that way you can better listen - and maybe understand - bach or scarlatti. pity they have not digitalized the sound of a natural temperament piano/chembalo yet. it's all WT. would be fun. 

[xvimbi]

what i like about it though is the possibility to make it sound like some other instruments, e.g. chembalo. that way you can better listen - and maybe understand - bach or scarlatti. pity they have not digitalized the sound of a natural temperament piano/chembalo yet. it's all WT. would be fun. 

Many modern digital pianos let you set the temperament as well as shift the frequency of all notes. That's as close as it gets to "original" Bach settings.

[CeeDee]

I would add a 10th (pun intended) to paul's list - a digital piano, like an old raincoat, never let's you down. I would say this - categoricaly! - do not buy a digital piano only. If you are looking at Yamaha's, buy a CVP, not a CLP - you might want to play Big Band swing or the famous Merenge,  or even old fashioned Rock 'n Rollwhen you get bored with the classical repertoire - it does happen. Cheers, CeeDee

[Floristan]

But...that said...if you do not need to worry about transporting your piano, or space in your home is not an issue, would you say that there's truly nothing quite like learning/playing on a good acoustic piano?

Yes, and xvimbi said it well:

...digital and acoustic pianos are different beasts. They appear to be similar, but taking one as a subsutite for the other would be foolish. Apples and oranges.

I play both.  The digital has the obvious advantages, outlined above so well, but no matter how good the sampling, no matter how good the feel, it's still like the difference between listening to a well-engineered recording on a fine sound system and hearing the same piece at a live performance.  The technology is incredible, but it is still a sort of illusion.  It is as though you were playing a piano but yet not playing a piano.

Maybe if the keyboard was hooked up to an incredible sound system with great speakers, maybe then the illusion would seem more real.  But using headphones as I do (because the built-in speakers are good for nothing), the sound is directly in my ears.  It doesn't surround me.  I can't feel it with my body.  With an acoustic I feel directly connected to the sound I'm producing.

Also, my Yamaha P120 keyboard simply doesn't feel like an acoustic piano.  They have imitated the weight of piano keys well, but the keys bottom out hard.  There is no aftertouch.  On an acoustic, the keys bottom out on felt punchings which give just a little, giving a gentle landing and aftertouch...that little give at the bottom of the key.

I also find the digital I play to be overly sensitive, so that it produces a particular dynamic with much less effort than any acoustic I've played.  It's possible to play pp on a digital (they have sampled it well), but the amount of restraint required to play pp is considerably greater than on a well-regulated acoustic.  My digital has 4 different grand voices (only one of which I really like), and this dynamics problem exists with all the grand piano voices.  It is not a problem, however, with the purely digital voices, like the 4 digital piano voices.  They actually respond to touch more like an acoustic.  Odd.


 

[DarkWind]

To mound's reason:

Actually,  the upright we bought was rather old, maybe 50+. But, its in an AMAZING condition, it barely ever goes out of tune, only thing is probably the top B flat. There of course a few dampers that sometimes stray away from the strings, but that isn't too much of a problem. But anyways, the digital might be the best, unless she's into modern music and all that kind of stuff .

[xRhapsodyx]

Hey everyone (third post so far on this board!)

I work in a music shop in the UK, so have regular access to a large variety of digital pianos, upright acoustics and (also due to my lessons) a baby grand and a grand.

The problem with digitals can be the technique... on an acoustic you are really pressing a key to hit a string, and you feel that. Even on the best digitals you still can't forget that you're making a simulated sound come out of it.

But in many ways I think a digital piano can surpass an acoustic. All acoustics are different, even the same models, and so they all feel really different, and not always good. I've played £6000 upright pianos that sounds rubbish and I'd much prefer to play the latest Clavinova (can't remember the exact model of the best one I've ever felt.. but its' good. When you knock on the top of it, it echos as if it's in a hall, and when you play or sing a really strong note near it, it will echo, which is pretty damn clever!) over a shoddy acoustic. Plus digital's sound exactly the same and feel exactly the same as an identical model, and never ever go out of tune. That being said, I really don't think you can fully replicate the feeling of playing on a gorgeous sounding quality acoustic. I played on a grand piano in a concert last Sunday though, and I hated it, I wouldn't have bought it for £100. It felt so wrong and crappy! I've got my own acoustic which isn't a good one, and just bought a small Kawai digi for my room. All in all, I'd say a digital is nice to have as an extra for practising on, but never get rid of an acoustic to only own a digital, almost everyone regrets it. I'd prefer to do all my performing and playing on a decent acoustic.

When people come into the shop and ask advice, I always tell them straight, as opposed to pretending they need to spend £10000 on a grand piano for their daughter's first lesson, and they appreciated it!

 - Faye