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"Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!! (Read 7196 times)

Offline bardolph

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"Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
« on: April 25, 2005, 05:42:43 AM »
I am fed up to the TEETH of reading about thumb-over vs. thumb-under technique and wondering if I'm doing it right. I want to SEE SOMEONE DO IT.

Would someone who considers himself an expert in this technique please perform the following simple steps:

1) Obtain, buy, borrow video camera with sound. Make sure you get a good solid stand for it as you will be filming yourself, or work with a friend (make sure you pick someone generally competent and intelligent at physical tasks.)

2) Film someone else playing piano to learn where to best place the camera, and keep in mind that you want to see the action of thumb-over and thumb-under from several different angles.  Keep at this until you obtain excellent visual information. All you're interested in is the hand, so get in close, and keep the thumb at the center of the screen. When the thumb-over action is going on, what does it actually LOOK LIKE? Get it clearly on the screen!

3) LIGHT THE AREA PROPERLY. This means, REALLY BLOODY BRIGHT, ok? Grandma's 60 watt light bulb won't do the job here. You want several of the brightest lights you can possibly get, placed so as to eliminate ALL shadows. Again, practice and test until you obtain satisfactory results.

4) Now that you're all set, film a number of bits of playing with thumb-over passages. (DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY -- it will be good enough for this primarily VISUAL demonstration -- if you start to worrying about sound, believe me, it's a dark forest that has one entrance and NO exit.) Play them ROBOTICALLY SLOW, then a little faster, then a little faster, then at normal speed, etc. Demonstrate all the areas where the thumb-over technique is of particular value, where it's particularly difficult (to the thumb-under habitués), etc.  Keep explanations to a minimum; Chang's covered that.

5) Edit out all the bad bits, and then digitize it (or have someone help you with that -- turn it into some kind of computer video format) and upload it somewhere, or tell me about it, I'll help you distribute it.

You'll be doing a tremendous service to piano-learners worldwide, and for very little effort!

Offline fuel925

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #1 on: April 25, 2005, 09:23:11 AM »
It sounds to me like you are demanding someone do that for you :o

Offline Chrysalis

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #2 on: April 25, 2005, 10:25:38 AM »
sounds like a school exercise
Debussy Rox! Debussy Rox! Debussy Rox!

Offline tds

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #3 on: April 25, 2005, 11:37:31 AM »
i must be the really odd one out, but bardolph's post cracked me up. i must admit that i ....kinda....enjoyed (*apologetically said*) reading it. i read it three times, already. tds ;D
dignity, love and joy.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #4 on: April 25, 2005, 11:42:20 AM »
You'll be doing a tremendous service to piano-learners worldwide, and for very little effort!

I'd do anything for a good meal in a three-star restaurant...

You could also just watch the Taubman videos.

Offline betricia

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #5 on: April 25, 2005, 03:10:16 PM »
Sorry Bardolph
I am not able to do the filming but just wanted to say that I had never heard of the Taubman videos and looked them up on Google.  They are good and no doubt there are lots of videos of technique.  good luck and thanks tds for the tip on videos.
patricia
 :)

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #6 on: April 25, 2005, 06:53:33 PM »
I too giggled a bit at this.  But I recognize the frustration as well!  In fact, I had been kind of thinking of asking my teacher to videotape her hands playing certain songs.  And then asking her if I might share it here.  Not sure if she would go for it or not (and she's out of town now)!

So, I don't agree with the expression of the idea (nor do I agree with it being very little work), but I do appreciate the idea.  It would be awfully nice.

Meanwhile, Bardolph, check the library (university, music school, etc.) for the Taubman tapes that xvimbi recommended.

Karen

Offline kilini

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 07:17:43 PM »
I agree totally. It doesn't have to be THAT wonderful, but anything SHOWING the thumb over technique would be great.


Offline pseudopianist

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #8 on: April 25, 2005, 09:04:42 PM »
Hahahahahaha this is the best thread ever.
Whisky and Messiaen

Offline pytis

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #9 on: April 25, 2005, 10:32:25 PM »
theres a link that i got
go to "http://www.pianoforkids.com/PianoInstruction/lessonpage.asp?lessonnumber=1" and on the right side click on watch video under scales that shows how to do it. its a great webstite.

PS. this in not spam or anything
PPS.im not sure if this is what you want tho

Offline bernhard

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #10 on: April 25, 2005, 10:55:57 PM »
theres a link that i got
go to "http://www.pianoforkids.com/PianoInstruction/lessonpage.asp?lessonnumber=1" and on the right side click on watch video under scales that shows how to do it. its a great webstite.

PS. this in not spam or anything
PPS.im not sure if this is what you want tho

First, let me say that the guy in this video seems to be a thoroughly nice guy and a good teacher. I also liked the scale "improvisation" he does (I also do something on those lines).

However, that video has nothing to do with "thumb over". It is the old thumb under method.

Second I take issue when he says that the purpose of wirkin on scales is to "strenghten the fingers" It is not and it will not. The real purpose in working with scales is to get familiarised with the concept of key. By the way, he does demonstrate (very briefly) the use of arm weight rather than lifting fingers high, so it may be worth watching the video for that.

Now to the original question by Bardolph: items 1 - 4 are no problem, but how do you digitize the video? (My video camera is not digital :'(). Depending on how much trouble it is, I might do something about it. (But beware, I am intensely lazy).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline pytis

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #11 on: April 25, 2005, 11:00:02 PM »
Sorry that it was the wrong techicue but im a beginer and i thought thats what you meant.

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #12 on: April 25, 2005, 11:05:22 PM »

Now to the original question by Bardolph: items 1 - 4 are no problem, but how do you digitize the video? (My video camera is not digital :'(). Depending on how much trouble it is, I might do something about it. (But beware, I am intensely lazy).

Darn, and I have the digital video camera (actually a pretty nice one), but no knowledge!   Wait a minute, I do have a lot of frequent flyer miles..... :D

Fondly,
Karen

Offline bardolph

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #13 on: April 26, 2005, 05:02:27 AM »
I should just walk away from the computer when I'm in a nasty mood. Now of course I realize what I DEMANDED  :-[ is in fact a lot of work. But I swear, if I was an expert thumb-over pianist, I'd do the video myself! I put plenty of time into making help materials (about computer stuff) for friends and family as it is, I like to do it.

Anyway, thanks for the mention of the the Taubman videos, I will certainly look for them.

Bernhard: You need a video or tv capture card in your computer; then you plug your camera or video player into the card, play back the video, save it  to the hard drive, then you convert it with software. Perhaps you have a friend or relative who does this sort of thing for a hobby? Any computer with a capture card will do, pretty much.

If you have a friend who's willing to help, all you have to do is make the videos and turn the results over to the friend -- he'll digitize it, then he can either edit and convert the things himself or he can upload the raw files to the army of pianoforum volunteers! It could be a bit of a collective project....

Offline omgbruce

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #14 on: April 26, 2005, 05:35:04 AM »
theres a link that i got
go to "http://www.pianoforkids.com/PianoInstruction/lessonpage.asp?lessonnumber=1" and on the right side click on watch video under scales that shows how to do it. its a great webstite.

PS. this in not spam or anything
PPS.im not sure if this is what you want tho

hehe thats funny :) that guy who is in the videos teaches at my community college . he teaches jazz piano or something like that :)

ill need to stop him one day to ask him about thumb over ;o im still really unclear on how this whole thumb over thing works...(at least how it can work without gaps? :o )

yeah and i agree with bardolph  . im fed up with this. i read the chuan c chang piano technique book but the book has no illustrations to clear up my questions.  and i took a look at the Sandor book ... even with the black and white pictures im still confused..  RAWR  i need a video! 

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #15 on: April 26, 2005, 11:45:08 AM »
ill need to stop him one day to ask him about thumb over ;o im still really unclear on how this whole thumb over thing works...(at least how it can work without gaps? :o )

yeah and i agree with bardolph  . im fed up with this. i read the chuan c chang piano technique book but the book has no illustrations to clear up my questions.  and i took a look at the Sandor book ... even with the black and white pictures im still confused..  RAWR  i need a video! 

I thougt TO is one of the easiest pianistic technique to describe with words, because the motions involved are very simple. I'll try: With your right hand, play CDEFG, then lift your hand, move it as a whole upwards, drop it down so that the thumb is now on the following A and play ABCDE. This is "thumb-over", which is a misnomer and actually means "no thumb-under". In scale playing, one of course plays CDE - lift - FGABC, etc.

Now the shocker: there will be a gap! One can't play legato with the TO technique. Perhaps, that is the confusion. However, at fast speeds or when using the pedal, and with some refinement of the motions, the gap will be practically inaudible.

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #16 on: April 26, 2005, 01:46:38 PM »
With your right hand, play CDEFG, then lift your hand, move it as a whole upwards, drop it down so that the thumb is now on the following A and play ABCDE. This is "thumb-over", which is a misnomer and actually means "no thumb-under". In scale playing, one of course plays CDE - lift - FGABC, etc.

Now the shocker: there will be a gap! One can't play legato with the TO technique. Perhaps, that is the confusion. However, at fast speeds or when using the pedal, and with some refinement of the motions, the gap will be practically inaudible.

Thanks xvimbi, that's kind of what I thought it was, but this explanation is very clear.

Karen

Offline bardolph

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #17 on: April 26, 2005, 05:10:38 PM »
To Whomever may be able to make a Thumb Over video for us:


Have a look at that online video --

http://www.pianoforkids.com/PianoInstruction/lessonpage.asp?lessonnumber=1

-- to see how NOT to make your TO video. It isn't lit brightly enough, the camera is too far away, and the angle is wrong. You want a closeup of the hand and a different angle.

(I wonder what that guy will think when he finds out we're accusing him of being a Thumb Under Dinosaur who films badly to boot  ;D )

Offline kilini

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #18 on: April 26, 2005, 06:59:51 PM »
That's what I thought, xvimbi. But then I thought "hey, it couldn't be THAT simple! All those blocks of text must mean something more!" I never gave it a shot, really. Thanks for clarifying.

And I thought nobody could ever describe it in words...

Offline abell88

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #19 on: April 26, 2005, 07:20:02 PM »
Quote
However, at fast speeds or when using the pedal, and with some refinement of the motions, the gap will be practically inaudible.

(Hope I did the quote thing right.)

xvimbi, could you clarify the "refinement of the motions". I suspect that is a little harder to describe.

Thanks.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #20 on: April 26, 2005, 09:23:41 PM »
(Hope I did the quote thing right.)

xvimbi, could you clarify the "refinement of the motions". I suspect that is a little harder to describe.

The goal is to make the gap as small as possible. This means to move very efficiently from one hand position to the next. Instead of finishing one cluster, lifting the hand, moving the hand, playing the next cluster, all of this should be one smooth motion with some lateral movement already starting before the first cluster is completely finished. The movement should be flat, no dramatic throwing the hands up in the air, or such. It's similar to jumps. I guess this is what I meant with "refinement". The Taubman videos are excellent in showing all this.

Offline pianostudent

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #21 on: April 27, 2005, 01:07:39 AM »
I watched the Taubman video and I think there is no TU or TO. However the video demonstate how to play sclaes effieiently with well rotation, shaping, and moving in-and-out. With all kind of motions, we can avoid the awkward TU movement.

I could capture a video clip of that, but I don't know where to host the file.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #22 on: April 27, 2005, 01:25:42 AM »
I watched the Taubman video and I think there is no TU or TO. However the video demonstate how to play sclaes effieiently with well rotation, shaping, and moving in-and-out. With all kind of motions, we can avoid the awkward TU movement.

I could capture a video clip of that, but I don't know where to host the file.

TU is quickly dismissed as it involves moving the thumb under the palm. TO is also implicitely there. The term "thumb-over", however, doesn't really exist. They demonstrate how to play scales, and what they show is in fact TO, but they never really make a big fuss about it.

Offline rlefebvr

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #23 on: April 27, 2005, 03:24:52 AM »
I thougt TO is one of the easiest pianistic technique to describe with words, because the motions involved are very simple. I'll try: With your right hand, play CDEFG, then lift your hand, move it as a whole upwards, drop it down so that the thumb is now on the following A and play ABCDE. This is "thumb-over", which is a misnomer and actually means "no thumb-under". In scale playing, one of course plays CDE - lift - FGABC, etc.

Now the shocker: there will be a gap! One can't play legato with the TO technique. Perhaps, that is the confusion. However, at fast speeds or when using the pedal, and with some refinement of the motions, the gap will be practically inaudible.

This is exactly what I thought it was. Very well explained.

Thanks
Ron Lefebvre

 Ron Lefebvre © Copyright. Any reproduction of all or part of this post is sheer stupidity.

Offline rlefebvr

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #24 on: April 27, 2005, 03:27:36 AM »
I'd do anything for a good meal in a three-star restaurant...

You could also just watch the Taubman videos.

Don't you need a bank loan for the Taubman video's.


Very expensive... :)
Ron Lefebvre

 Ron Lefebvre © Copyright. Any reproduction of all or part of this post is sheer stupidity.

Offline fuel925

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #25 on: April 27, 2005, 11:28:47 AM »
I havn't heard of this "thumb over" technique before, and im just wondering, why would you want to use this instead of thumb under?

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #26 on: April 27, 2005, 11:50:51 AM »
Don't you need a bank loan for the Taubman video's.


Very expensive... :)

Agreed. The cheapest way is to find a library that has them. Many Universities/music schools have them.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #27 on: April 27, 2005, 12:00:16 PM »
I havn't heard of this "thumb over" technique before, and im just wondering, why would you want to use this instead of thumb under?

Check out this thread for starters: www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.0.html

TU requires the thumb to be moved under the palm, which is a very unnatural, awkward and potentially injurous movement. In addition, it is impossible to play fast scales (or similar passages) with the TU method. One has to use the TO method. TU causes a speed wall and is one of the major reasons why many people have problems speeding up pieces.

Offline nyquist

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #28 on: April 27, 2005, 02:28:43 PM »
I am fed up to the TEETH of reading about thumb-over vs. thumb-under technique and wondering if I'm doing it right. I want to SEE SOMEONE DO IT.


The following link might be useful:

http://www.musicandhealth.co.uk/articles/rotaryscale.html

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #29 on: April 27, 2005, 02:37:55 PM »
Check out this thread for starters: www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3100.0.html

Oops, that link works, but the further discussion links by the Big B do not.  Anybody know where they are?

Karen

Offline abell88

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #30 on: April 27, 2005, 03:13:41 PM »
Look in here:

pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.msg56133.html#msg56133

This is a huge collection of links by Bernhard...if you go through it you will see various ones on scale playing (or you can spend a couple of days just going through them all!) After all, who really needs to practise when we could be reading Bernhard? ;)

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #31 on: April 27, 2005, 05:03:45 PM »
Look in here:
pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.msg56133.html#msg56133

Ah, the map to the gold mine.  Thanks Abell!  (I think I've seen it before, but right now my brain is on overload...and I really can't read through some of the old R-rated dreck that is posted.)

Karen

Offline Hmoll

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #32 on: April 27, 2005, 06:11:08 PM »
I am fed up to the TEETH of reading about thumb-over vs. thumb-under technique and wondering if I'm doing it right. I want to SEE SOMEONE DO IT.

Would someone who considers himself an expert in this technique please perform the following simple steps:

1) Obtain, buy, borrow video camera with sound. Make sure you get a good solid stand for it as you will be filming yourself, or work with a friend (make sure you pick someone generally competent and intelligent at physical tasks.)

2) Film someone else playing piano to learn where to best place the camera, and keep in mind that you want to see the action of thumb-over and thumb-under from several different angles.  Keep at this until you obtain excellent visual information. All you're interested in is the hand, so get in close, and keep the thumb at the center of the screen. When the thumb-over action is going on, what does it actually LOOK LIKE? Get it clearly on the screen!

3) LIGHT THE AREA PROPERLY. This means, REALLY BLOODY BRIGHT, ok? Grandma's 60 watt light bulb won't do the job here. You want several of the brightest lights you can possibly get, placed so as to eliminate ALL shadows. Again, practice and test until you obtain satisfactory results.

4) Now that you're all set, film a number of bits of playing with thumb-over passages. (DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE SOUND QUALITY -- it will be good enough for this primarily VISUAL demonstration -- if you start to worrying about sound, believe me, it's a dark forest that has one entrance and NO exit.) Play them ROBOTICALLY SLOW, then a little faster, then a little faster, then at normal speed, etc. Demonstrate all the areas where the thumb-over technique is of particular value, where it's particularly difficult (to the thumb-under habitués), etc.  Keep explanations to a minimum; Chang's covered that.

5) Edit out all the bad bits, and then digitize it (or have someone help you with that -- turn it into some kind of computer video format) and upload it somewhere, or tell me about it, I'll help you distribute it.

You'll be doing a tremendous service to piano-learners worldwide, and for very little effort!

No.

1) You buy me the video camera.

2) You provide me with the space, and the piano to do the taping.

3) You provide me with the lights.

Then I might think about doing a video for you.

[ingrate]
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline Hmoll

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #33 on: April 28, 2005, 06:20:12 PM »
The real purpose in working with scales is to get familiarised with the concept of key. By the way, he does demonstrate (very briefly) the use of arm weight rather than lifting fingers high, so it may be worth watching the video for that.

 

Can't say I agree with that statement. Scales certainly do familiarize students with the different keys, but there are lots of technical benefits from practicing scales as well. Everything from arm motion, weight transfer, evenness of tone, different articulations, dynamics, etc. can be isolated and improved on by practicing scales.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline CC

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #34 on: April 30, 2005, 05:51:28 AM »
I promised bardolph via email that I would video tape TO and TU and add it to my web site.  Can't promise when because my old camcorder is broke and must borrow from my daughter.  Also, I have never uploaded videos so if I run into problems, I will ask for some help; my daughter's hubby is a computer geek with an Apple with Garage Band and all, so I expect no problems.  The reason I haven't bot a new camcorder is that there isn't any affordable ones with which I can turn off the AGC.  This is terrible for piano recording because of the dynamic range of the piano -- pianissimo always gets amplified, making it sound like you are playing an organ. Hopefully, I can make a short clip and get it to cycle so you can see the critical part over and over -- seeing it once will be so quick as to be useless.

OTOH, don't expect it to solve all your problems.  The main difference between TU and TO is not in the visible motion, but in the FEEL of the pianist, which the audience can't see. TU and TO are, in actual practice, not two distinct ways to play. There is a whole range from extreme TU to extreme TO, and in practice you use some intermediate hybrid.  Once you learn TO, TU becomes so awkward that you won't use it. However, extreme TO has a break in it, so that you need some degree of TU for legato play, depending on speed.  Without TO, quiet hands is nearly impossible and you need to be a magician to be able to add the glissando motions. So my video clip should also show the quiet hands and glissando motion.  These complications will also make the TO motion harder to see, but without them, the TO motion won't work as well. 

I will keep you updated on my progress.  I also plan to take photos of the four finger positions, the conventional curled position and the 3 FFPs, the extended, pyramid, and spider.
C.C.Chang; my home page:

 http://www.pianopractice.org/

Offline bardolph

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #35 on: April 30, 2005, 06:38:37 AM »
CC,

You da MAN! In the meantime, why don't you just ask your daughter to do it? She's got the equipment, a piano, the skills, and a computer geek hubby with all the necessary stuff required (no doubt) to turn out an uploadable video! She and her husband will be able to videotape a few TO demonstrations and have them ready for uploading in an hour or less, I swear -- a) fix camera on well-lit hand b)play c)dump into computer d)either edit results or simply upload raw files to any of the nerds on this board and we will do the rest. I can even provide you with an FTP site.

Also, DON'T worry about the sound quality; it's going to be crap no matter what you do, unless you get into some serious recording gear; and besides, it's a MOTION we're concerned with here, not a sound. Just play everything at mezzo-forte and all will be well, no need to worry about the AGC feature.

I was also thinking that many people have digital cameras nowadays, and most of these cams have the ability to shoot short films; put the settings to maximum, light the piano brightly, and I'll bet the results would be useful. In fact, when my brother is round next week, I'm going to try this myself and show you all the results of an amateur pianist's VERY CLOSE reading of CC Chang's amazing book :)

Offline tocca

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #36 on: April 30, 2005, 10:23:13 AM »
I promised bardolph via email that I would video tape TO and TU and add it to my web site.  Can't promise when because my old camcorder is broke and must borrow from my daughter.

Great to hear CC! That will add a nice touch to the already amazing book of yours. I must take the opportunity and thank you for all the work you've done on the book. It's very appriciated, many many thanks!  :)

Offline galonia

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 10:28:56 AM »
I havn't heard of this "thumb over" technique before,

When I first joined the forum, I was curious about this "thumb over" technique, too, but when I read in more detail, I realised this is just the way I have always played but never put a name to.

So I would advise people not to be too stressed about it... you are probably already doing it somewhat as it is - as CC says, a motion somewhere between complete TO and complete TU is appropriate most the time - it's a matter of working out "how much" of each to use... where on the continuous spectrum should you lie?  That depends on each individual and on the passage.

Offline torchygirl

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #38 on: April 30, 2005, 02:48:01 PM »
CC-

I think that the Canon Opturas (at least some of them) have manual audio for under $1000.  I'm willing to chip in some for all your help.  In fact, maybe I'll see if anyone else does.

Karen

Offline CC

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #39 on: May 01, 2005, 01:56:53 AM »
Already got a digital camcorder from my daughter.  Her hubby suggested animated gifs, so I might try that first. If anyone has better suggestions, let me know.  Here are my requirements:

(1) 2 clips, TU and TO at moderate speed, 2 octaves.
(2) clips are short, less than 10 seconds, in order to keep bandwidth small -- you will be surprised at how many people all over the world still use low bandwidth.
(3) each clip must automatically cycle so that you can watch them as long as you want.

Of course, the sound will be crappy -- I will use a Clavinova (can't even find time to tune my piano), and not even bother with the midi -- will initially go the analog route using the camcorder mike. One advantage of animated gifs is that they cycle automatically, and video quality can be adjusted to fit the need.

But like I said before, this won't solve your TO problems.  You must experiment and practice -- that is the only way.  Because I give concrete examples, carefully chosen analogies, and precise descriptions/definitions/explanations, many people use my book like a recipe and try to follow every rule exactly.  THIS IS  THE WRONG WAY TO USE MY BOOK, because you are going back to the old "follow the rules blindly" routine. The book is all about freedom to experiment and to design your own practice routines, new knowledge, and empowerment of both student and teacher. Therefore, my motions will just be another one among a zillion possibilities, complete with faults and bad habits.
C.C.Chang; my home page:

 http://www.pianopractice.org/

Offline bardolph

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #40 on: May 02, 2005, 04:33:07 AM »
cc chang says:  "...many people use my book like a recipe and try to follow every rule exactly.  THIS IS  THE WRONG WAY TO USE MY BOOK, because you are going back to the old "follow the rules blindly" routine."

As Book 8, verse 8 of a certain book says: "There are occasions when the commands of the sovereign need not be obeyed."  ;D

Offline CC

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #41 on: May 02, 2005, 08:24:18 PM »
I've uploaded 2 versions of TO/TU video.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that even I can't get it to work.  Here's the story so far, and the end result is that it still doesn't work and I need help:

I made 3 compressed versions of the original digital video: .mov, .ave, and .mp4; first and last are quicktime, and the avi is MS (realplayer?).  the .mov is huge, 40M; the other two are about 3M.  One of the sources of the problem is that I still don't have these conversion software on my wintel computer so I asked someone with an Apple to do it for me; many Apple files are not compatible with windows machines, as these seem to be. I can get the .mov to work on my computer directly from the file, but it is so large, that I have not uploaded it.  I have uploaded the other two (~3M files) as:

http://members.aol.com/chang8825/TOscale.avi

and (same)/TOscale.mp4.

Could someone access these and get them to work?  Better yet, could you further compress them and convert them so they are more compatible with windows machines?  I think they can be compressed to 1M and show no discernible degradation, but with a smaller image -- which will be plenty big for viewing just one hand playing.  Give me some initial reactions, and I will give you further info on this video (as with any real video, there are a few caveats).  Those with Apples should have no problem.  The video should be streaming, so it might be choppy at first; if so, rewind and replay -- it should be perfect the 2nd time.

The clip shows 4, two octave roundtrips of RH. The first 2 are TO, the second 2 are TU.  I made a mistake and played the down scale of the TO somewhat TU, but we can discuss these details later when we get the video to work for everyone.  This is just the first try, and we will get it right with time.  This thread is getting long; maybe I will start a new one next time, so you can scroll to the relevant posts more quickly.
C.C.Chang; my home page:

 http://www.pianopractice.org/

Offline tenn

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #42 on: May 02, 2005, 08:37:33 PM »
That played on my Windows XP using RealOne. No sound.
The thumb over looks like thumb under having a fit.
I really must try it though.
Thanks for taking the trouble.

Offline CC

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #43 on: May 02, 2005, 08:45:54 PM »
that's what I meant by "caveat".  The 'flailing fingers" syndrome shows the devastating effect of 40 yrs of trying to use TU all the time.  I could have used my daughter to film the TO (she has no such problems because she learned TO as soon as she started), but thought it might be educational to show what can happen if the teacher doesn't catch these things early.
C.C.Chang; my home page:

 http://www.pianopractice.org/

Offline tenn

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #44 on: May 02, 2005, 08:52:46 PM »
I don't know how to reduce the size of the file.
I tried video size at 50% in media player then save but the file size is still the same.
Any suggestions?

Offline robertp

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #45 on: May 02, 2005, 08:58:49 PM »
The .avi file from the link plays just fine on XP with WMP 8. Great for everyone to have this available.

%%robert
Piano: August Foerster 170
Blog: www.oparp.blogspot.com
Teacher: www.racheljimenez.com

Offline geo_van_deaq

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #46 on: May 02, 2005, 10:23:36 PM »
maybe I'm an idiot but I can't tell the difference

Offline xvimbi

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #47 on: May 02, 2005, 11:04:20 PM »
maybe I'm an idiot but I can't tell the difference

It's difficult to see, for the reasons CC gave below. However, in TU, the thumb moves under the palm. In TO, the thumb never moves under the palm. And then, there are all these scenarios in between these extremes.

Offline CC

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #48 on: May 03, 2005, 04:05:24 AM »
I discovered that filming TO/TU is not easy.  The best angle is probably the one I chose.  Ideally, you would  like to film from above; but then, the thumb slides under the hand and you can't see TU.  At the angle I chose, unfortunately, the TU motion is mostly towards and away from the camera, so the visible part of the motion is reduced.  The best way to see the difference is to look only at the thumb.  Also, with TO, you want the arm almost 45 degrees from keyboard, whereas with TU, you can be close to perpenducular. Scales in general should not be played with arm perpenducular to keyboard, because the fingers 2-5 will not align with the keyboard.  Then there is the variation with speed.  At high speed, it is almost pure TO, and at low speed, almost pure TU. At intermediate speeds, it is a mixture; however, with the RH it is easier to play fast TU coming down than going up. Therefore, at intermediate speeds, you tend to go up TO and come down TU as I inadvertently did in the video; this tends to happen to those who learned TO too late.  I have a better one (TO coming down), but noticed this error too late, after I completed all the file conversions.

Our older daughter calls TO the "thumb hop" (TH!!!!!) which might be more descriptive and less misleading.  If enuf people prefer this terminology, I might change over to that and make her happy. She teaches a few students now (briefly taught piano full time many years ago) and says that extraneous finger/hand motions are a major problem with beginners playing scales, but this can be cured in just a few lessons by teaching TO, but should be done early, before any habits are ingrained.
C.C.Chang; my home page:

 http://www.pianopractice.org/

Offline bardolph

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Re: "Thumb Over" -- would someone PLEASE FILM!!!
«Reply #49 on: May 03, 2005, 08:26:51 AM »
CC U da man!! Again!

The .avi file played in Windows Media Player, looked great, but no sound. The .mp4 file is Quicktime, right? I was able to play it with some other players, but we are in search of a simpler solution. I tried a little experiment -- downloaded demo of ImTOO MPEG Encoder from www.imtoo.com and converted the .mp4 file into various formats; the best bang for the buck seems to be Windows Media Video .wmv format. I sliced 100 pixels off the left of the video, and 10 off the bottom; and I knocked the encoding bitrate down to 400 from the original 1014kbps. (I learned all this fancy stuff just now, playing with the app.)

Original size = 3.07MB      Converted size = 1.57MB

It still looks and sounds reasonable!  The demo of this software will allow up to 5mins at a time, so there you go.

Therefore I suggest you make your .mp4 videos, as many as you like, and we'll mess with them for you and edit them down, to save you the trouble.