Am I doing this right? 3 against 2 etude

[littletune]

So this Etude is pretty difficult for me... first when I started learning it I thought I got it right already but then my teacher said I learned it wrong. so I started from the beginning again, hands separate and then together with metronome for the triplets (not the quarter or eighth notes)... so I was practicing with metronome all the time and I think I got it  and yesterday I tried for the first time without the metronome... and I recorded it... so is it ok?  or am I playing it wrong again? 

I also wanted to ask something else (I don't want to make so many separate threads) about Bach's Little prelude (BWV 924)... I have been practicing it for a really looong time already (since the end of December) and I feel like I'm not getting any better, I'm still practicing only hands separate and I just always get lost!!!! there's just soooo many notes and all alike and I just keep getting lost. And my teacher said I should practice with metronome but I just can't (specially not the right hand!!) it just makes me nervous and I just can't do it. And I asked my teacher if I should just learn to play it without the sheet music first and she said no, but I think there's no other way!  because if I look at the sheet music I keep hitting wrong keys, and if I look at my hands I get lost and can't find where I am that fast... any advice? 

I just sometimes feel like these pieces are a little too difficult for me... and especially cause I can't practice as much as I would like or need to (because of the neighbours).
(Oh, am I sitting any better now? I think I'm sitting a little better but I still play too much with my head and neck right?)
Well any advice would be great. 

[starstruck5]

Could you post the score?  The first part doesn't sound exactly right -the second part I am not sure, unless I could see the notation.

When you play 2 against three, you have to make sure that there is no jerkiness in the rhythm. You have to listen very carefully and make sure that each 2 notes are even in length -The second note of the triplet is like a trigger for the second note of the two -it's played a split second later -which you seem to be doing quite well -Even experienced pianists can have problems with polyrhythms!

Not sure about the second part, where there is a definite uneveness in your rhythm -but this is how it may be written? It sounds quite good actually -like a modern rock groove!

[zoecalgary]

Hi Littletune - Unfortunately I can't help you as I am just learning this myself for Consolation 3 (which is way above my level!). But I have become obsessed with these polyrhythms and I figure if I can learn this from that piece I will have come far for me.  I was wondering if there was a specific exercise that I could do to get this better without actually worrying about the notes in that piece because right now they are distracting me.

Dire-Tonic posted me a video in the Consolation 3 thread (pg. 4) that you may want to take a look at though. It's one where you can see his hands but he's not at a piano. It may help you check if you are doing the timing for this right.

Could tell me the full name of this Etude and what book it is in? I think I'll have to learn this on a different piece.  Thanks.

P.S. I can see your posture in the reflection and it looks like you are curving your back and bringing your head forward. Maybe try to sit with your back straighter when  you play.

[j_menz]

Second bit seems OK. In the first bit, the triplets are not even and you are not emphasising the first note of the triplets, but rather the second.

[littletune]

Thank you very much everyone for listening and commenting! 

Could you post the score?  The first part doesn't sound exactly right -the second part I am not sure, unless I could see the notation.

When you play 2 against three, you have to make sure that there is no jerkiness in the rhythm. You have to listen very carefully and make sure that each 2 notes are even in length -The second note of the triplet is like a trigger for the second note of the two -it's played a split second later -which you seem to be doing quite well -Even experienced pianists can have problems with polyrhythms!

Not sure about the second part, where there is a definite uneveness in your rhythm -but this is how it may be written? It sounds quite good actually -like a modern rock groove!

Yes I will try to post the score now, I just took a picture of it  (I hope it will be ok)... no I don't think it's written that way... I'm pretty sure it's just me getting it wrong again!  that's why I wanted to post it and ask... Thank you for answering! 

Hi Littletune - Unfortunately I can't help you as I am just learning this myself for Consolation 3 (which is way above my level!). But I have become obsessed with these polyrhythms and I figure if I can learn this from that piece I will have come far for me.  I was wondering if there was a specific exercise that I could do to get this better without actually worrying about the notes in that piece because right now they are distracting me.

Dire-Tonic posted me a video in the Consolation 3 thread (pg. 4) that you may want to take a look at though. It's one where you can see his hands but he's not at a piano. It may help you check if you are doing the timing for this right.

Could tell me the full name of this Etude and what book it is in? I think I'll have to learn this on a different piece.  Thanks.

P.S. I can see your posture in the reflection and it looks like you are curving your back and bringing your head forward. Maybe try to sit with your back straighter when  you play.

Thanks for your comment and advice!   I will try to post a picture of this Etude now. (I'll try to attach it, if it will work, otherwise I will upload it to Photobucket and post the link). Well I am not from an English speaking country so I don't think it would help you if I told you the book (it's a book Etude 3) and it only says Etude (for the name) and that it's by W. Schwarz.
Oh I'm still curving my back too much right? I tried thinking about it and not do that but... I guess I'm still doing it just the same, I really have to convince my mum to buy me the book that m1469 once suggested!!! I'll go talk to her now!  Thanks again and good luck with the piece you're learning! And with this Etude (if you decide to play it). 

Second bit seems OK. In the first bit, the triplets are not even and you are not emphasising the first note of the triplets, but rather the second.

Yes I guess I'm still not getting it right...  Well I'll keep trying. maybe till next year I'll get it.  Thanks for the comment! 

[j_menz]

The secret to polyrhythms is to be able to hear and play each part seperately (at the same time). If you try and do it mathematically, as you are now, you may get close, but it will never have the flow you are after.

One way to develop this facility is to do some contrapuntal music. Bach's 2 and 3 part Inventions are excellent in this regard.

[ajspiano]

I'm sure you likely realise this, but perhaps reading it this way will help a little bit..

I've tried to simplfy it as much as I could. The attached file shows 2 bars of 3/4 time that represent the first bar of your piece.

I would suggest starting by counting aloud, and just practicing these bars until you can do it just about in your sleep, and reversing the roles of the right and left hands, since that is required for your piece also.

[zoecalgary]

Hi Littletune - thanks for posting your music. I'm going to give it a try and see how it goes. I'm at the stage that I have to count it out 1+2+3+ but then it sounds kind of robotic. When I let one hand go on autopilot it sounds better. I'll see if I can try to record something and post it here later tonight.

[zoecalgary]

Hi LittleTune, I just posted my recording of Part A of your Etude on the Consolation thread. I listened back to yours again just now and they sound very similar to me. I was thinking I was getting closer to getting this but I'll have to wait and see what the experts tell me. I feel more natural with the A part, 2RH over 3LH, but can hear real hesitation when I play 3RH over 2LH so I still need to work on that.

Did you check out some of the tips I've been given over on the Consolation thread? You should as they will probably help you out.  Good Luck.

[littletune]

Thanks again to everyone for your comments and advice!!! I will try all that soon (when I'll have a little more time, I think on Wednesday). 

The secret to polyrhythms is to be able to hear and play each part seperately (at the same time). If you try and do it mathematically, as you are now, you may get close, but it will never have the flow you are after.

One way to develop this facility is to do some contrapuntal music. Bach's 2 and 3 part Inventions are excellent in this regard.

Thanks! Well I don't really play very complicated pieces yet. I mean I just started with Bach's Prelude BWV 924 (12 little preludes) and I'm having A LOT of problems with it and I'm not even playing it hands together... so I think probably those Inventions would be a lot too difficult for me... I don't know I guess we'll see.  Thanks again!

I'm sure you likely realise this, but perhaps reading it this way will help a little bit..

I've tried to simplfy it as much as I could. The attached file shows 2 bars of 3/4 time that represent the first bar of your piece.

I would suggest starting by counting aloud, and just practicing these bars until you can do it just about in your sleep, and reversing the roles of the right and left hands, since that is required for your piece also.

Thank you very much I'll try that as soon as I can!

Hi Littletune - thanks for posting your music. I'm going to give it a try and see how it goes. I'm at the stage that I have to count it out 1+2+3+ but then it sounds kind of robotic. When I let one hand go on autopilot it sounds better. I'll see if I can try to record something and post it here later tonight.

Hi LittleTune, I just posted my recording of Part A of your Etude on the Consolation thread. I listened back to yours again just now and they sound very similar to me. I was thinking I was getting closer to getting this but I'll have to wait and see what the experts tell me. I feel more natural with the A part, 2RH over 3LH, but can hear real hesitation when I play 3RH over 2LH so I still need to work on that.

Did you check out some of the tips I've been given over on the Consolation thread? You should as they will probably help you out.  Good Luck.

Thank you!! I'm glad it was helpful for you!! I looked at your thread and listened to you play this Etude and I think you're doing really great... I mean I have been learning this Etude for like a month already probably... and I still can't play it as I should  I'll look at other things in your Consolation thread soon! Thanks! 

[zoecalgary]

Hi Littletune! I'm glad you visited the Consolaton thread as I've been given some great advice there with this same thing.  Everybody here is so helpful.

Also, don't be frustrated that these pieces are too hard for you. Your teacher obviously feels you are ready to tackle this so you should be proud. I could only wish my teacher gave me harder things to work on (hopefully she will when she feels I'm ready for it! haha)  Just use your good practice techniques and do a bit each day. And it will come!

P.S. I'm not doing too complicated things either but I got poly's going yahoo!

 

[ajspiano]

Another way of looking at it - potential beginning exercises I've been thinking about and writing to go before the assignment of something such as the etude you are playing..

See attached.. I'm not settled on it, i think i'll write something that sounds better soon - this just gives you a coordination exercise and an understanding of the rhythms against each other.

[j_menz]

Another way of looking at it - potential beginning exercises I've been thinking about and writing to go before the assignment of something such as the etude you are playing..

See attached.. I'm not settled on it, i think i'll write something that sounds better soon - this just gives you a coordination exercise and an understanding of the rhythms against each other.

Excellent resource aj - wish there'd been somethng like that when I first faced these.

[ajspiano]

Excellent resource aj - wish there'd been somethng like that when I first faced these.

I think its really important to start with the LH/RH on single notes, as in line 2 of my file - I never had any trouble with 2 vs 3 because I learnt it completely by accident with whole arm movements as a drummer.

They really needn't be difficult - if you have someone teach the left/right triggering and how the hands work in conjunction you should be able learn these fairly quickly..  I mean, it feels pretty natural to go (whole hand) LH, RH, LH, RH just tapping a bench perfectly evenly, which is basically what is happening here.

[littletune]

Thanks again everyone for your comments!  And thank you very much Aj for that piece/exercise!  You're really nice for doing that!    I will try that!