the greatest piano work of all time?

[thalbergmad]

Of course not! I really thought that you of all people could take a joke!

I can take one, but it is not always evident you are telling one.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Would that be the cut version?

Best,

Alistair

It is over 1 hour long.

Some of us need such time in order to "say" something.

We are not all as talented as you.

Thal

[ahinton]

It is over 1 hour long.

Some of us need such time in order to "say" something.

We are not all as talented as you.

Who are "we" and how much talent do I have?

The amount of time that any composer needs "in order to "say" something" - i.e. to "say" what is necessary, no more, no less, in any given work - is bound to vary from piece to piece; sometimes a few minutes will suffice and, at others, far more time is required. The most important thing is to try at all times to get as close to the right duration as possible in each case; alas, it is not always so easy to do so. That said, the longer the work, the greater the risk of possible longueurs and therefore the more important it becomes to try to avoid such pitfalls; Sorabji - who, as you know, had more experience than most in the field of large-scale composition - used to cite as a tenet of his Zoroastrian faith the importance of not boring your fellow man...

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

Would that be the cut version?

Best,

Alistair

Yes, as lawnmowers tend to cut your Achilles tendon. So I'd recommend to stay away from lawnmowers. Run for your live.

[ahinton]

Yes, as lawnmowers tend to cut your Achilles tendon.

Only if misused, surely? If they always did this to their operators, they'd have been consigned to history long ago.

Run for your live.

"Run for your live" what? Performance?

Best,

Alistair

[pianowolfi]

Only if misused, surely? If they always did this to their operators, they'd have been consigned to history long ago.
"Run for your live" what? Performance?

Best,

Alistair

Yes. I mean, don't run. There's always that Zen thing, mind you.

argh, another one of those stupid mistakes, I know it's "life", it's just because I'm dr...well a bit tipsy

[djealnla]

There's always that Zen thing, mind you.

wah wah wah

[thalbergmad]

Sorabji - who, as you know, had more experience than most in the field of large-scale composition - used to cite as a tenet of his Zoroastrian faith the importance of not boring your fellow man...

Arguably, he had more experience in the field of "boring your fellow man" as well.

Thal

[pianowolfi]

wah wah wah

Yeahhh somth'n like that..

[djealnla]

New candidate:

Sorabji - Opus Hintonissimus

[thalbergmad]

Or perhaps:

Hinton - Opus Sorabjissimus

Or:

Hinton - Variations on a long boring paragraph
Hinton - Spellcheck Sonata

[pianowolfi]

New candidate:

Sorabji - Opus Hintonissimus

That must certainly be an op. posth.

[djealnla]

Sorabji's Etude No. 59 has to be one of the most amazing piano pieces I have ever heard. Am I alone in thinking this?

[thalbergmad]

Probably not. There must be a few plinky fans on here that would think along the same lines.

Thal

[gep]

Probably not. There must be a few plinky fans on here that would think along the same lines.

Thal

I wonder how
1) you know that Sorabji's Etude no. 59 is "plinky"
2) you difine "plinky"
3) you determine that "plinky" fans, disregarding what they are exactly, would (therefor?) like said Etude.

As for the question of this topic, I would go for JSBach's Wohltemperiertes Klavier (and anyone arguing "but that aint for piano!" is kindly asked to think about the meaning of the German word "Klavier". If you still would want to rule out WTK, or any other "Klavier" work of before the piano, well, go ahead, but I'd still vote WTK. You may then fill in 'as played by Sviatoslav Richter', he uses a piano... )

all best,
gep

[ahinton]

Arguably, he had more experience in the field of "boring your fellow man" as well.

"Arguably" indeed - are you suggesting that Sorabji encountered more instances than most of people boring their fellow men(/women) or are you seeking to infer something else and, if the latter, what precisely are you inferring, on what specific grounds and on the basis of what evidence?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

New candidate:

Sorabji - Opus Hintonissimus

Never heard of it. Have you or has someone of your acquaintance just discovered the score to this work?

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Or perhaps:

Hinton - Opus Sorabjissimus

Or:

Hinton - Variations on a long boring paragraph
Hinton - Spellcheck Sonata

Never heard of any of these; must be some other Hinton (and it's not Arthur of that ilk, either)...

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I wonder how
1) you know that Sorabji's Etude no. 59 is "plinky"
2) you difine "plinky"
3) you determine that "plinky" fans, disregarding what they are exactly, would (therefor?) like said Etude.

As for the question of this topic, I would go for JSBach's Wohltemperiertes Klavier (and anyone arguing "but that aint for piano!" is kindly asked to think about the meaning of the German word "Klavier". If you still would want to rule out WTK, or any other "Klavier" work of before the piano, well, go ahead, but I'd still vote WTK. You may then fill in 'as played by Sviatoslav Richter', he uses a piano... )

How and on what basis Thal might define "plinky" I have no idea but, more importantly, I'd fill in "as played by Yonty Solomon", because although there are no commercial recordings of his playing of Bach's klavier works, his accounts that I have heard of numbers from WTK, the French Suites and most especially the Goldberg Variations are peerless beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I wonder how
1) you know that Sorabji's Etude no. 59 is "plinky"

Pure deduction, as a I recall no.58 was plinky.

I might be wrong and it is plonky instead.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

peerless beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

I have had some pretty wild dreams, but as yet, none include Yonty Solomon.

It would not surprise me to learn that your wildest dreams have.

Thal

[ahinton]

Pure deduction, as a I recall no.58 was plinky.

I might be wrong and it is plonky instead.

How pure was that deduction and on what grounds can it be demonstrated as pure, as you claim it to be? How do you define either plinky or plonky? Without truthful, reliable and elucidatory responses to all three questions here, it is difficult to accept your assessments, deductions et al.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

I have had some pretty wild dreams, but as yet, none include Yonty Solomon.

It would not surprise me to learn that your wildest dreams have.

Whilst I do not know - and you do not say - why you would be unsurprised to learn this, a more careful reading of my post should enable you in any case to conclude that what I wrote was not about Yonty Solomon himself but about his accounts of certain great klavier works of J S Bach (which I presume you to have the misfortune never to have heard).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

How pure was that deduction and on what grounds can it be deomstrated as pure

Unfortunately, I have never in my life been able to deomstrate anything.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

which I presume you to have the misfortune never to have heard.

Incorrect Sherlock, I have listened to a great deal of Bach. I have to say I have always had a greater respect for his organ works than klavier works.

Thal

[ahinton]

Incorrect Sherlock, I have listened to a great deal of Bach. I have to say I have always had a greater respect for his organ works than klavier works.

Once again - read the post carefully first, Watson, before concluding as you do here. I wrote
"not about Yonty Solomon himself but about his accounts of certain great klavier works of J S Bach (which I presume you to have the misfortune never to have heard)"; so - have you or have you not heard Bach played by Yonty Solomon? If the latter, my surmise was correct (and it would not have required a Holmes to make it).

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Unfortunately, I have never in my life been able to deomstrate anything.

Or to be able to determine the purity of anything, presumably...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

so - have you or have you not heard Bach played by Yonty Solomon?

No, but I have heard him play some plinky which I think was that "Jardin Parfume" non music.

That was sufficient to put me off wasting any more ear space with his recordings.

Thal

[djealnla]

Your conversation is undoubtedly amusing, guys, but is anybody else here going to express their view regarding my last nomination?

[ahinton]

No, but I have heard him play some plinky which I think was that "Jardin Parfume" non music.

Oh, so this portmanteau term "plinky" has now assumed additional status as a noun, has it? You might well have heard Yonty Solomon playing Le Jardin Parfumé, as he did on quite a number of occasions since his momentous Wigmore Hall recital in 1976 in which, for the first time, he presented on half of a programme devoted entirely to Sorabji; his performances of it were legendary, as is his recording of it which he made in the early 1990s. What that has to do with Bach is unclear.

That was sufficient to put me off wasting any more ear space with his recordings.

So had you heard, for example, Jonathan Powell playing Michael Finnissy's Piano Concerto No. 4 before you'd heard him playing anything else, that experience would have "put you off" listening to him playing, say, Beethoven's Op. 109 sonata, Chopin's Barcarolle, Granados' Goyescas? How sad for you!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Your conversation is undoubtedly amusing, guys, but is anybody else here going to express their view regarding my last nomination?

Well, that particular moonlightless Quasi una fantasia is indeed a wonderful piece, but the very notion of nominating anything at all as "the greatest piano work of all time" seems to me to be on a Haydn to nothing - except, of course, that the work that would otherwise have met this definition admirably (i.e. had it been for piano rather than for oboe and ensemble) is by the composer who more recently wrote a piece (which is for piano) entitled Is there any future for new music?...

Best,

Alistair

[sordel]

This is one of those threads where it's more interesting to read other people's candidates than to supply one's own. I'm surprised that anyone would regard Sorabji's 59th study as a strong candidate for Sorabji's greatest study, let alone his greatest work or the absolute greatest piano work ever. I'd be interested in your thinking behind that suggestion.

[thalbergmad]

his performances of it were legendary, as is his recording of it which he made in the early 1990s.

Using the word "legendary" would seem to indicate that his performance of this work was in some way superior to all of the "thousands" of other pianists that have performed this work.

One can have a legendary Beethoven performance or a legendary Rachmaninov recording, but using this word in relation to a Sorabji performance is plain daft, unless one has considerable material to compare it to.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

How sad for you!

Unless his performances were "legendary", I have no sadness.

Thal

[ahinton]

Using the word "legendary" would seem to indicate that his performance of this work was in some way superior to all of the "thousands" of other pianists that have performed this work.

I don't see that such a conclusion need necessarily follow from what I wrote.

One can have a legendary Beethoven performance or a legendary Rachmaninov recording, but using this word in relation to a Sorabji performance is plain daft, unless one has considerable material to compare it to.

Why so? - as long as one has at least some material to which to compare it (which is the case), one can speak of it in such terms, but especially so if the performance(s) / recording constituted uniquely great piano playing per se. It might be "plain daft" to you, but then quite a lot of things might seem to be so to those know no better than to resort to the term "plinky" to describe the material concerned.

Anyway, all this arose from my reference to Yonty Solomon playing the Goldberg Variations and other keyboard works by Bach, with which performandces there are surely plenty of comparisons to be made!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Unless his performances were "legendary", I have no sadness.

Then I repeat - how sad for you! He won't be playing any of these works again, I'm sorry to say...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Why so? - as long as one has at least some material to which to compare it (which is the case), one can speak of it in such terms, but especially so if the performance(s) / recording constituted uniquely great piano playing per se.

My God, we have gone from "legendary" to "unique".

Are there any more superlatives you would like to add??

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Then I repeat - how sad for you! He won't be playing any of these works again, I'm sorry to say...

It will take me months to recover from this horrible news.

Anyone got a number for the Samaritans?

Thal

[djealnla]

This is one of those threads where it's more interesting to read other people's candidates than to supply one's own.

I agree.

I'm surprised that anyone would regard Sorabji's 59th study as a strong candidate for Sorabji's greatest study, let alone his greatest work or the absolute greatest piano work ever.

Well, which is your favorite Sorabji etude, favorite Sorabji piece and favorite piano piece overall? And why?

I'd be interested in your thinking behind that suggestion.

Well... what can I say? It affects me in a way very few piano pieces do. I love its gradual buildup(s), its sensuous harmonies, as well as the multiple emotional and contrapuntal layers found within it. Is that enough?

[djealnla]

It will take me months to recover from this horrible news.

Anyone got a number for the Samaritans?

You could PM "pianistimo".

[ahinton]

My God, we have gone from "legendary" to "unique".

"We" have, have "we"? Really?...

Are there any more superlatives you would like to add??

Not especially, but if I did have, I woulve have added it/them and if I might have, I will add it/them. In the meantime, I have at least heard what it is that I'm writing about...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

You could PM "pianistimo".

Great idea.

Thal

[ahinton]

It will take me months to recover from this horrible news.

Well, it would seem to have taken you quite a few of them to get to hear that news in the first place...

Anyone got a number for the Samaritans?

I'm sure that many people do, but most if not all of them will have looked it up for themselves.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

You could PM "pianistimo".

He could indeed (and he has stated that this would be a good idea), but is she a Samaritan hersefl or were you merely suggesting that Thal PM her and ask her for that number that he wanted?

Best,

Alistair

[djealnla]

Well, that particular moonlightless Quasi una fantasia is indeed a wonderful piece, but the very notion of nominating anything at all as "the greatest piano work of all time" seems to me to be on a Haydn to nothing - except, of course, that the work that would otherwise have met this definition admirably (i.e. had it been for piano rather than for oboe and ensemble) is by the composer who more recently wrote a piece (which is for piano) entitled Is there any future for new music?...

Best,

Alistair

I don't understand the Haydn joke. And that title sounds almost like something out of Babbitt. Are you talking about Carter (Gra, perhaps?)?

Edit: Never mind, Gra is actually for clarinet and orchestra.

[thalbergmad]

I have at least heard what it is that I'm writing about...

Congratulations, have a jam tart.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

Well, it would seem to have taken you quite a few of them to get to hear that news in the first place...

Well, I don't move in the same illustrious circles as you and I am still unaware as to what news I appear to be unaware of.

Thal

[sordel]

Well, which is your favorite Sorabji etude, favorite Sorabji piece and favorite piano piece overall? And why?

It's never occurred to me to have a favourite Sorabji etude, or a favourite Sorabji work, and I'm going to sit on the fence as regards favourite/greatest piano pieces.

That said, the particular etude you mention is not one that I find exceptional: you mention "its gradual buildup(s), its sensuous harmonies, as well as the multiple emotional and contrapuntal layers found within" but all of these merits are plentifully in evidence in other works by Sorabji. I suppose that there are few works of his that rise from such comparative calm to such a climax in so short a span.

You've made me listen to it with a new attention, which is always good, but if I were singling out one of the studies (that are currently available) I might mention No. 26 or No. 36. Then again, perhaps I shouldn't, because there is a lot of exceptional music in the studies.

As for my favourite work by Sorabji overall ... I really struggle to choose one work from such a consistent composer. In fact, to choose one is immediately to regret not choosing another, which is why I was intrigued by your choice in the first place.

[ahinton]

I don't understand the Haydn joke.

It's an English one - on a hiding to nothing (i.e., going nowhere).

And that title sounds almost like something out of Babbitt. Are you talking about Carter (Gra, perhaps?)?

Edit: Never mind, Gra is actually for clarinet and orchestra.

Nope - wrong continent in both cases. Sorry!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Well, I don't move in the same illustrious circles as you and I am still unaware as to what news I appear to be unaware of.

Well, in that case, you should read your own posts more carefully, too! You were the one who mentioned "this horrible news"!

Best,

Alistair