Aren't pianos largely overpriced?

[stormx]

Hi !! 

In my humble opinion, pianos are way overpriced. It is a pitty 
When i look at the prices (some models even up to 100K), i cannot avoid thinking that the profit margin the manufacturer is applying must be ENORMOUS 

After all, for instance, cars have much more technology than a piano, and they seem a bargain when compared to pianos 
I am not a car fan at all, and i like pianos, of course. But put side to side a Mercedez Benz and an Steinway Grand, and analyse what should cost more...

[Daevren]

It depends on many things. More people need cars for example. So production costs are lower.

Plus, in a lot of objects you can find insanely priced items.

No idea how much profit they are making.

[xvimbi]

Apart from the economoy of scale mentioned in the previous post, there are a few more things to consider. High-end pianos take a long time to manufacture, sometimes an entire year, or even more. They are hand-crafted. So, they really compare to a brand like Lamborghini, not to Mercedes. You'll find that a Lamborghini costs more than a Boesendorfer Imperial.

Finally, in capitalism, prices are dictated by what people are willing to pay, not what the item actually costs. All this applies to pretty much anything. It has little to do with quality.

[Glyptodont]

As has been said, pianos tend to be very labor intensive.

Does anyone out there remember how many individual parts are in a grand piano?  I knew once, but forget.

There has been some automating of certain types of parts, but most are still made of hardwoods and require quite a bit of hand fitting.

One reason some of the "second lines" of well-known manufacturers are much cheaper is because they are made offshore, such as in Korea or China, where all those hundreds of hours of skilled labor are considerably less expensive.  In other words, they are not automatically inferior just because they cost $10K and not $25K.

Then the dealer has expenses too.  Free warranty work, and some customers are unreasonable to the point of being squirrelly.  One person wrote a complaint here on the forum that she detected a "buzz" in her Kawai.  The technician had come out from the dealer's several times, but neither detected nor was able to fix the buzz.

In fairness, possibly this woman has a legitimate case.  But it is also true that perhaps she is a bit off of "top dead center" herself, as the expression goes.

We had one problem that developed in our grand and a technician required two full days to fix the problem -- in our home.  Paid for by either Baldwin or the dealer.

Considering that a good-sized grand is about the size of a small aircraft carrier, and is filled with moving parts -- I'm not sure they are too awfully overpriced.

But thanks for writing your submission to forum.  And maybe You are right, not me.

Best luck--

[texas911]

What? You can go out and buy a piano from $800 to over $100000! There is a price point for every budget. That's like saying all cars are expensive because you went and priced out Rolls Royces!

[Glyptodont]

Texas writes: "What? You can go out and buy a piano from $800 to over $10000! There is a price point for every budget. That's like saying all cars are expensive because you went and priced out Rolls Royces!"

If we are talking new grand pianos, perhaps we should NOT say $800 to $10,000, but more like $13,500 to $85,000.  If we are talking retail showroom price, it would be hard to get a top-line grand of any worthwhile size for less than about $23,000.

I have seen the lowest-priced small grands, used a year or two, being sold for as little as $6900 to $8000.  That's like, Young Changs.  And there are some dangers to purchasing used grands, as one can read elsewhere on this forum.

Many good quality uprights are hard to find for much under about $6900.  I am going by the price tags on the showroom pianos at our local music center.

[Doodle]

You cannot compare cars to pianos.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you tend to buy a new car every 100,000 miles or so.  In other words, a car is a consumable product with a limited lifespan.   Could car manufactures make vehicals that last longer?   Absolutely, but nobody could afford one.

A piano is not a consumable product.  Even if you bang the life out of one constantly it will probably last 10 years at least before it needs to be overhauled.  Overhauling a piano is much less expensive than buying a new one.   Is a 60 year old Steinway a good piano?   You bet.   Will my Samack last 60 years if I keep good care of it.   Absolutely.   Will my Toyota last 60 years?   Doubtful.

On products that do not need replacing, the prices are always going to be higher because you are buying that dependability.   The piano dealership realizes they are not going to get your repeat business. 
D

[thalberg]

I saw the profit margin list for a dealer once.  The profit margin on most high-quality grand pianos is 50%. 

[stormx]

I saw the profit margin list for a dealer once.  The profit margin on most high-quality grand pianos is 50%. 

this is abusive 

[jolly]

The average profit margin is somewhere in the low 40% range. Much less, and you wouldn't  have to worry about having any dealers.

The ROI for a dealer is much less than can be found in other pursuits.

[Doodle]

The profit margin at the grocery is over 50%.

The profit margin at some hardware stores or chain stores is 100% on certain products. 

I don't think you can really say the piano market is any different.

(Now piano salesmen can sometimes act a little like car salesman)

d

[Barbosa-piano]

 It is a pitty that pianos are largely overpriced, but wood these days is becoming more and more expensive. It is true that to make a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand takes a great deal of knowledge and experience. The problem is that, with many pianos, the many mechanisms of the action, plastic for the keys, piano painting, pedals, and so on, are usually exported from many places, the plastic keys made in Japan or Germany, Bavarian spruce from southern Germany and Czech Republic or Sugar maple wood from Canada or U.S., etc. But they try to make all of this seem extremely expensive. The stores and piano manufacturers price the piano on quality, and if we want it, we pay the high price, same case as buying a Mercedes Benz.

Mario Barbosa

[Eusebius_dk]

I wouldn't think so. Cars are made by machines, a Steinway is hand made. And when it comes to technology it took piano builders several hundreds of years to end up with the piano action we have today. It looks very simple, but every time you play a note there's an extremely complicated process going on inside the instrument.

Pianos cost a lot of, because they're worth a lot of money. But cheer up, string instruments are usually much more exprenssive. I once had a chamber music coaching with a cellist who had a $6,000,000 cello!

[gfiore]

 In reality, high end pianos are not overpriced.  If you take into account the cost of each of the components  used in the manufacture of a piano; wood, actions, hammers, plates, felts, glues, many of these components come from specialty firms. Then add in the cost of labor, the fluctuation of the Euro, meeting  European EPA requirements for piano finishing, factory costs; insurance, electricity, taxes, R&D research, advertising, and the cost of doing business in Europe. It's amazing that piano prices have managed to stay competetive with other industries throughout the world.
 A piano has over 12,000 parts, and high end grands take a year or more to build. Does a car take that long? A piano is very labor intensive, most mass produced items are not.

[stormx]

I wouldn't think so. Cars are made by machines, a Steinway is hand made. And when it comes to technology it took piano builders several hundreds of years to end up with the piano action we have today. It looks very simple, but every time you play a note there's an extremely complicated process going on inside the instrument.

Sorry, but i have to disagree 

The super high piano technology you are referring is essentially the same figured by B. Cristofori some 300 years ago. 
And i dont beleive that in 1720 someone could have ever dream about manufacturing a car !!
Pianos have an interesting and not trivial mechanism, but comparing its complexity to car's is absurd.

In what concern the "ALL HAND-MADE" argument, i really would want to know what percentaje of an Steinway manufactured nowadays is really hand made. Do you beleive nothing in the process is automatized?

Daevren made an excellent point.
Almost all people need a car, but very few people are interested in owning a piano. Small market, high prices 

[jr11]

In this day and age, hand-made does not necessarily mean a better product. Production equipment in the most modern factories is computer-laser controlled, and tends to turn out a much more consistent product than factory workers are capable of. Most of what you are paying for in hand-made products are wages, particularly in higher wage places such as Western Europe, United States, Japan and Korea.

This is why lower wage countries like China, that have studied methods and worker programs of successful piano producing nations, are now turning out a very high quality product for an affordable price. Their factories are new, and production equipment state of the art. This is a good reason why many companies such as Steinway and Yamaha are building some of their products at these facilities. As cost of living is lower in these countries, workers are not really being taken advantage of.

Final regulation of a piano is still best done by top factory techs, but most of the other processes automate very effectively with good quality control.

[c18cont]

All of this brings me to an area where I am deficient,

(O.K.....ONE area.... )...., That is the specific materials. Perhaps someone has a text in mind, or a link that is accurate, as I am interested...maybe something on PF from the past?

I am really confused about all the different WOODS, and the value, even to age and size of tree, or in some cases whether or not it has been submerged in water for "X" years, (or decades....)...or protected in drying for a period of "X"....

And the FELTS and METALS, and FINISHES....Can we really say a, for example, Story and Clark uses inferior felt or maple etc? Or that Fazioli uses the most perfect of all woods known?

Seems a bit far fetched to me, and if so, surely the Chinese and Koreans will win out with there truly vast resources, in particular as already noted, in SKILLED (!) labor and technology at bargian basement cost!.....The GREAT pianos must be made with truly inferior 19 th and early 20 th century technology....Do we still need and believe in it?

And what about the great string instruments...COULD it be there will NEVER again be the such made on this old planet? No Strad. is possible today.....?

It would be Impossible, to make  the Cheops Pyramid today, no matter what methods you would employ.

I say, as Ferarri or Lamborginni...or even Mercedes...Part is buying the NAME....

Just A Thought...

John

[andyaeola]

As has been said, pianos ought to last a long time and give much pleasure over the years, so they are probably good value. 

But I would add that some brands are overpriced - check this list of six of the best uprights, priced for top 130-132cm model and then rated:

Best price in UK                        Larry Fines upright rating
Steinway       £22K                       sixth
Bosendorfer  £17.5K                    first
Bluthner        £16.5                      second
Bechstein      £15K                       fourth
Grotrian         £15k                       fifth
Steingraeber £14.5                      third

 
These are facts and not simply Steinway bashing, but I broadly agree with Larry's rating anyway.  I say broadly as I've never seen a Bosendorfer upright and I'd add Ibach (£15K) in around fourth.  Of note is the fact with the Steingraeber 130 you get a special repeating action.

A new Hamburg Steinway D in the UK is £88k, yet a new Bosendorfer Imperial is "only" £62k.  I think many people would agree that good versions of these two models, whilst having different & unique sounds, are the best widely available pianos in the world.  But £26,000 difference? 


Andy
                         

[Axtremus]

1. How do you know if Larry Fine rated those brands' uprights using the 130cm~132cm models as the baseline?

2. I see no point in putting so much emphasis on Larry Fine's rating at that level. Even Larry Fine cautions people about the various caveats, limitations, and subjectivity in his ratings.

As for your Steinway D vs. Bosie Imperial pricing, in the USA, a black new Imperial would probably be 20k~35k USD more expensive than a black new NY Model D.

If piano X is $a and piano Y is $Na, is piano Y really N times better than piano X?

One can ask this question for any two pianos, but the way I see it, the higher the prices go, the less "bang for the buck" you get from the marginal increase in prices.

[andyaeola]

"As for your Steinway D vs. Bosie Imperial pricing, in the USA, a black new Imperial would probably be 20k~35k USD more expensive than a black new NY Model D."

Axtremus,

I'd be most interested to know how the new Bosie Imperial compares in price to a new Hamburg Steinway D?  What are the actual US dollar prices when both are European made and imported?


Agreed, my little list could not be called a scientific method of price comparison, but is the best way I could come up with.  Larry Fine is a well informed gentleman in my opinion, for all his caveats.

Also in the UK, Steinway will not negociate or discount at all - the price on the piano is fixed.  Pay it or walk away.   My experience here is that other manufacturers and dealers are more flexible.  Is this the same situation in the US?

Andy

 

[c18cont]

As far as I am concerned,

Whatever it is, short of saving my own or a family members life, they can negotiate or I walk away; after telling them where they can put it....PERIOD...

Don't put up with the fixed price nonsense,...go buy something else....IMHO....

John

[eins]

I fully agree with the original poster's notion that pianos are overpriced, particularly in comparison to a car.

A car even has a radio that plays piano music.

But try to take your piano to a simple task like driving down to the mall!

 

[Derek]

Yeah they do act like car salesmen (piano salesmen), they always come up to you with that huge grin  and they don't quite look you in the eye, its always up and to the right a little bit, on a spot on your forehead (perhaps this is where the BUY STUFF brain cortex is located and they're trying to manipulate it with telepathic brain waves!!!)

[c18cont]

Yeah, eins...

  good one....

John

[c18cont]

And,

At the risk of being again labeled a rabble-rouser, How can it be justified by anyone that this exists:

Steinway, 5'1" BABY Grand..from $37,400 to $59,100....and Vertical..from $18,400 to $31,400........

John

[pianobabe_56]

Forgive me for being terribly conservative, but isn't a bit wasteful to spend the money it costs to by a Bosendorfer? If they want to charge that much, I don't really care, but is the Bosie really worth it? Couldn't you just deal with a piano that cost much less?

I agree that grands are a luxury (I would love to own one, but don't *sigh*), but my upright has a beautiful tone and works fine.

Why do people insist on paying 80 grand for a piano when people are starving in third-world countries?

(that sounded cliche.. eh...)

[c18cont]

The cliche works for me....

John

[pianopitchman]

I definately believe that pianos are NOT over-priced and I love when people compare them to automobiles to prove that they are.  For arguments sake, lets compare a Steinway B to a mid-range Mercedes.  Both will be in the $60,000-$70,000 price-range. 

Which one of these luxury items fits each of the following descriptions:
-With proper care and maintence should last at least a century
-Can relieve stress and bring real emotional joy to you
-Can build treasured family memories and be passed down through generations of a family
-In 30 years you can sell for more than what you paid for it
-Exposes you to music (that is actively making music)

Now, not everyone needs or has the means to buy a $70,000 piano.  But for those who do, I think it can be a wonderful purchase and worth every penny of it. 

[c18cont]

I am sorry,

I see too much of the wealthy worldwide....

Never mind, I simply cannot see the justification when MANY more reasonable instruments will do EXACTLY the same thing....for a fraction of the price.

This world is fast running out of the ability and right to take the resources of the world for a privileged few...

John

[pianopitchman]

A $2000 piano will indeed FUNCTION exactly the same as a $80,000 one in that 88 keys will cause 88 hammers to strike steel and copper wound strings.  To say that I can get EXACTLY the same results is not true.

Moreover, we live in a world that for better or worse dictates that those who have the means can acquire whatever they want.  If you think the resources are better put to use elsewhere, you are entitled to that opinion.  However, because you feal that way does not mean that the amount of money paid for a given instrument is not a fair exchange.

[c18cont]

It hasn't anything to do with a fair exchange, and a fair exchange is not so easily determined anyway. The point has to do with the overpricing of the commerce, and certainly it is in fact, overpriced...There is probably little arguement that those items in low demand are terribly high in cost for all the worlds persons to support; it has always been  a fact determining commerce. Not many pianos are sold, so they are already high in real costs to the world..just as diamonds and yes, Mercedes are...

The United States and western Europe consume the largest share of natural, (and unnatural) resources of any nations, and I am not alone in believing it borders on obscene in principle, in particular when the third world conditions are carefully determined. We risk loosing the high ground of improving the human condition....an area where it seemed after the global wars, the 20th century would bring a new world for all.

But it is more than that. Demographic studies by the best scientific minds now suggest that we are indeed running out of all that makes our race able to command it's environment; that is the Raw Materials....and it will come that we drive ourselves off the planet, but with nowhere to go..Our demise will result....just as we will lose our SUV's....as we won't have the gasoline to run them.

Why continue to speed up the downfall of many peoples of the world through greed? For certain a piano or two, or even all of them makes little difference in equatorial Africa, but the idea is that ALL we do has an effect on all OTHERS no matter our liking it...and as long as we continue to deny three forths of the world a decent living standard, we are all doomed...

John Donne spoke clearly,..No Man Is An Island....

Just my thoughts on the subject.  But I leave it now...

John Cont

[gfiore]

 Let's rationalize this. Is'nt a piano company like Pearl River, located in a second world nation, which manufactures 50-70,000 pianos anually,  costing an average of $3,000 for an upright, and 8,500 for a grand, using up more of the world's raw materials than a small company such as Bösendorfer, which manufactures 500 pianos anually, costing between $45- 130,000?
 Thank God I got my Bösendorfer 214 last year, before all of the cheap piano companies use all of the high quality raw materials.
 I can also tell you this, no $2,000 upright can approach a Bösendorfer or other tier1 grand piano in terms of tone, touch, or craftsmenship. If you think so, your ears need to be checked.

[Axtremus]

gfiore,

You wrote: "I can also tell you this, no $2,000 upright can approach a Bösendorfer or other tier1 grand piano in terms of tone, touch, or craftsmenship."

If $2000 won't do, will $4000 do? How about $6000? Just curious how high do you think it needs to go before an upright can "approach a Bösendorfer or other tier1 grand piano in terms of tone, touch, or craftsmenship" ?

[gfiore]

 Ax, personally, no upright can come close to a good grand in terms of repetition. But if I did'nt have a choice, a Steingräeber 130PS would come close to at least being inspiring.

[c18cont]

Hey there, G.Fiore...and others..indeed,

I don't disagree in fact, only in principle.....Wood is in fact renewable; of interest,.. it seems wealth as an ITEM, is not, as the entire activity of the world determines the total value..not just something like trees, or global warming.. or Mercedes ..etc.  et. al.

While the wealth as measured by traditional means seems greater, the real wealth of the world and it's recources is less in some important ways, involving the ammount "owed" and already put away for our problems (...polution...power...pensions ..etc...) It is at it's worst in the third world, and is not good in the second world countries....

I am simply one of those that believes we are consuming our environment and our people far to rapidly.... ...

But in truth I was not speaking in terms of what goes into a tier I piano,  only about the wealth required to purchase one... As to the wonderful craftsmanship, I ABSOLUTLY accept it and even applaud it....I am a true lover of the creations of yesterday..(But I do wonder at what point you might equal the BEST Steinway....

BUT people like Pearl River are going to get around hand craftmanship sooner or later....How many tube (valve) computers have we seen lately? (for example...)

Seems we would be wise to think in terms of using wealth more wisely...

However, on NPR there was a bit about a pencil co. that couldn't make it against China and the East...Just yesterday, I believe...So they began making EXCLUSIVE high quality pencils for art and Mech drawing etc....Now they are doing fine...(ANYONE hear that prog? I have forgotten the company....)

It is worth noting one of the newest companys, Fazioli, did just that...as well..Exclusive, not mass production....Again, it is the MONEY that hurts me....not the money Fazioli makes, which cannot be much, but the ammount customer "X" spends on a Fazioli,....with so many of the world starving in a literal sense...

Enough of this drivel...wrong place perhaps, for it as well...Just passing thoughts as I continue to deal with ethics...

Regards,  John..P.S.   Please consider my next post....

[c18cont]

I have a question.

At the time when I began being TOTALLY occupied with teaching music classes and directing four choirs and a small orchestra, (I mention to point out how far away from piano I was personally...not as a director, so I ignored much I heard...):

There was a lot of flap I recall, in a number of areas of the country that put Steinway on the stake, and accepted Baldwin and Yamaha as being much superior...It was a period of almost "worthless" Steinway's and people seemed serious...(again, I wasn't able to put my time in...I just accepted it as possible...The piano's I used in my work were not my choice...I simply used them as adjuncts to my work for 25 years..Taught Math after that ...)

I recall some university boards selling Steinway, and buying a couple of new 9' Baldwins...and that was true for the Mun. Aud. in the town I was in..

WAS there a period of "bad" Steinways? and was the period important, or could this be a market ploy and method for Baldwin and later, Yamaha...?

It seems to me it would be some area around 1965 to 1995, (when I retired and began a new interest in piano solo)...

Anyone know what was goin on at that time?

Regards from a behind the times guy....

John Cont

[gfiore]

 It's not your imagination. It was the  teflon bushing era  :(which started in 1959 and ended in 1982.  During that time period, a lot of artists switched to Baldwin and Yamaha as an option to the Steinway, which they felt  had deteriorated  to many levels below it's premier quality of years before.

[c18cont]

!!!!!!!...NOW...,

I recall something about it.....I had just never looked at it as a subject....Thanks much for the bringing me up to date...!!! MOST interesting...

Regards,   John

[c18cont]

I do multiple posts, I know, and the admin will get me sooner or later..,

But...I do wonder at an obvious...

There must be some facts, then, for the people who suggest Baldwin,and to a greater level Yamahas being the best buys in quality today..but many here disagree...

Many here prefer the rare and little known more "exotic" makes it seems. Wish someone would comment....

Is there any "proven" best piano, according to the real experts, the designers and technicians? Has anyone really looked at such sites as:

 https://www.goptools.com/gallery.htm

Giving some various scales for pianos, for example...and many other sites dealing with design and manufacture...

John

[Axtremus]

c18cont asked:

Is there any "proven" best piano, according to the real experts, the designers and technicians?

"Experts" have "expert opinions," but "proof" is quite another concept entirely.

Even during Steinway's "Teflon years," Steinway pianos were still the most widely used in high-profile performances and recordings... that kind of track record (or market dominance if you wish) is hard to beat.

I once read a wise man wrote this in a chat room: "Every piano exists for a purpose." A cheap vertical serves a different purpose than a 9' concert grand. Each piano is designed for a particular set of uses.

"Proven best" in abstract is not very meaningful. I think your question can be better framed by asking if there is any "proven" best piano for a particular use.

[c18cont]

In fact,

I have little argument with the general premise of "proven", but I use it in terms of the "experts", as that is what many see as the ANSWER to a problem....They look at a final answer generated by a small part reality and a large part promotion...It is in fact thought of as "proof" if enough hype is supplied from real, or imagined demonstrated ideals. Example; what is the most widely played concert level grand. Then it might  be germane to ask simply, "why is that so"?

As a result my original question still remains, but we might want to put it in the definers including "the best piano from the company in question" perhaps, the particular use means nothing to this question, as the best would suggest that all units from that manufacturer would be among the best...We might assume with good reason, that the concert model would likely be a given company's best, or at least represent the high point in design and execution...

Have you compared the measured scales and a bit about the measuring of scales from my supplied URL...(commonly called Pscale)..,for example, the Baldwin 9' and Steinway D? It is true however, these give too few other comparisons to be very useful...

Regards,   John

[Axtremus]

c18cont,

I think my comment on Steinway's dominance during its Teflon years have made my post confusing... I meant to write that in response to gfiore's post. That statement should have been put in a separate post. (It was almost 1am when I wrote that, sorry!)

It's interesting to look at the scale measurements in the link you provided, but to be perfectly honest, I have not the ability to imagine what the piano might actually sound like or feels like just by looking at those measurements. As a layman, I really wonder if there is or ever existed any one who can or could imagine what the pianos might sound/play like with those measurements alone (without knowing the material used, hammer choice, action choice, and other the construction details of the piano). It's an interesting question! I look forward to the real experts chiming in on this.

[c18cont]

I would enjoy,

..seeing some continuation on this, but perhaps it is not likely. In any event, it remains that a fair comparison suggests a pretty much equal share of supporters on each side of the question...

As to scales, the Inharmonicity points may be the most easy to identify with, and the comparison of the Baldwin and Steinway concert grands..(S-10..and .."D"..) is the most interesting, as the given material at this source is not very complete...I have lost a site that was better...Perhaps someone knows it, or I can find it again...if so I will put it on.

And..this thread now shows activity, so someone else may comment on piano pricing

John

[c18cont]

I have decided they are NOT largely overpriced....

John..(Actually I am doing this to carry it "back" to the "front".... Is there an easier way?

[lagin]

Is this piano overpriced?  It's a five foot eight Yamaha grand, shiny black, but used.  They aren't sure how old it is, but the tuner guesses maybe twenty five years.  One key has a little chip, and I must admit that the previous owners scratched it up pretty bad.  It looks like they tried to wipe it down with something hard in the cloth, as there are large scratches on it.  There are also a few chips here and there where you can see the metal or wood or whatever it is, underneath.  On the bright side, it does come with a bench, and plays beautifully.  It looks okay until you see a brand spanking never been nicked new one .  Anyway, they asked $16, 000 Canadian dollars.  That includes all taxes, five year warrenty, free delivery, and a free tuning whenever requested withing six months of purchase date.  It was orginally $14, 500, or something like that before adding all the tax and whatnot.  What do you think?

[buck]

Wow..16, 000 Canadian dollars.

Is that the U3 or U5?

[leahcim]

I once read a wise man wrote this in a chat room: "Every piano exists for a purpose."

But did that include firewood?

[c18cont]

Well,

This is the kind of thing I had issue with in the past in my arguments and complaints, poorly received by this and other forums....

OVERPRICED in my estimation, is based on the COST and the effort to stock, sell, service, kiss ---, value of material etc...whatever, in which it is indeed overpriced....way over...

Others take the position that if it sells for that price, and there is NO problem in selling it...then it is NOT overpriced....a mistake to me...but none the less, true for a society that worships money and the things it can buy; I however am not interested in that....

John

[lagin]

Wow..16, 000 Canadian dollars.

Is that the U3 or U5?

Wow as is good, or wow as in bad?  And it's a G2.