Beginner adult learner - comments about my lessons

[stormx]

Hi !! 

Little intro:
Adult learner (36), taking lessons for 7 months. I am very glad with my progress so far 
I have completed the following pieces:

Bach-Petzold Minuet in G
Schumann's "Melody", "Soldier's March" and "Wild Horseman" from the "Album for the Young".
Fur Elise (still some problems with B and C sections, but the notes are there)
Scarlatti K.32
Innocence, by Burgmuller

Right now, i am working on Clementi Sonatina in C major (op.36 n°1).

I want to make some comments regarding my lessons, in order to know your opinion.
All this repertoire was brought by ME (thanks to the forum !!!), because my teacher was only insisting on Czerny and Beyer. However, he made no objection to play pieces instead of dry studies, and i began to work on them.

So far so good, but i would like to know your opinion about the following aspects:

I receive 0(zero) theory instruction. For instance, i have no idea what kind of chord am i playing, or the key the piece is written.
I don´t do any sightread excercise.
I do not practice any kind of scales.
I was not instructed to use the pedal (yet).

Is this normal? 


Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts

[mazurka]

I receive 0(zero) theory instruction. For instance, i have no idea what kind of chord am i playing, or the key the piece is written.
I don´t do any sightread excercise.
I do not practice any kind of scales.
I was not instructed to use the pedal (yet).

Is this normal?  Undecided

What's normal? If you want to learn it, go for it.

You can learn reading notes by practicing at piano/keyboard or with computer programs like https://familygames.com/free/notecard.html (this is the one I use)

I don't know what you mean with scale exercises? I practice the scale of the song(s) I'm learning (including fingering).


.As for music theory, I don't know that much either. I know how to count, and some other things. You can read some at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_%28music%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music
https://cnx.rice.edu/content/m10945/latest/

for chord naming https://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano/ is maybe easy.
Altough you can find every minor and major chord when you know the major or minor scales

[mound]

I think it might actually be "normal", unfortunately. Is it right? Doesn't sound like it. Any teacher who doesn't have an adult student of 7 months working on any scales, theory or pedalling, sounds like an incompetant teacher. Does your teacher know about these things? Have you asked and been brushed off? It's quite possible your teacher is good and has some kind of plan. It is also quite possible, your teacher is a total hack and is getting by taking beginners only so far. I have no way of knowing.

[lostinidlewonder]

Early on it is very normal to not know theory. I encourage beginner students to forget about theory and just focus on building memorised pieces. That is what will sling shot your ability for now. Later on you can boost it by learning theory, but first draw as much as you can just by playing, when you feel confident enough then ideas of theory will make more sense in creating more efficient practice habits.

[mound]

not learning theory I can see. But no scale or sight reading work?

[bernhard]

I agree with Mazurka, Mound and Lostetc. (too long name ) It is not the way I personally teach, but with most teachers having just 30 minute lessons weekly, it is just not possible to cram everything in.

Theory and sight-reading do not require hands-on instruction the same way that technique (i.e. movements) does. So most piano teachers will concentrate on that aspect (plus musicality) and let the students fend the rest for themselves, or having a separate teacher for theory (and usually theory lessons are group lessons, since theory allows it).

Again I agree with Mound on the subject of scales. But then again, most teachers do not have the patience to develop a consistent work on all keys. Tipycally they will teach one or two scales (say, C major and A minor) and tell the student to work out the others.

But make no mistake. Just because the teacher may not be going through it with the same intensity that s/he does the repertory(either because of lack of interest, lack of time or lack of knowledge), does not mean that this is less important.

I suggest you work on them by yourself (since you are an adult student and quite capable, I am sure, of independent work on these areas) and come to your teacher with questions.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[c18cont]

Well,

I agree with Bernhard and mound...(may I do so?)

In fact, there are sources for theory in used texts and articles in mags. at old bookstores, and college bookstores, and there are many great sites on the web as well...

John

[pianocrazy]

it's a bit strange.

however, if you want to learn yourself, there are always some eexxcceelleenntt books easily available to help you. there are too many to name. it also depends on where you live.
 
some books are both simple and clear (better than music teachers ), and you could learn all you want within a pretty short time.

[stormx]

Thanks you very much for your feedback !! 

What my teacher usually does is let me play some piece, and then point out my mistakes, that usually are like (besides wrong notes):

You should play the left hand softer in this passage.
You shoud accentuate this note.
You are accentuating this note but you shouldnt.
You must play this passage evenly.
You are making this note to last a little longer than this other, and they have equal value.
In this passage, you lose your original tempo (either accelerating or slowing down).
etc etc

And we also lose time discussing fingerings...

My class is 1 hour long, once a week

I dont like that he does not play the pieces i am working on (and didnt study them). On the other hand, being "grade 3  or easier" pieces, i would have expected him to easily sightread them, but this does not seem to be the case. On the other hand, i know for sure that he teaches advanced students too...

So, this reminded me another point:
Shouldnt any teacher that pretend to make his living by piano teaching being capable of sightreading easy pieces? (let say grade 3 and below). What do you think?

PD: as you might observe, this are difficult issues to discuss with the teacher himself. That is why i come here. I cannot simply say him "i have observed that you cannot play this piece i am working on, and that you are neither capable of sightreading it", unless my plan is to leave him 

[Glyptodont]

A couple of comments.

1.  Given how long you have been playing, you have made amazing progress.  If you started from scratch 7 months ago, and are playing fur Elisa well, my hat is off. 

2.  I know I disagree with many if not most on the forum based on other threads.  But I really DO NOT want my teacher to play anything for me.  Given that time is precious during most of our lessons, the last thing we want is to slide off the piano bench, let the teacher take over, and hog half our lesson demonstrating his or her "panache."

One poster stated in another thread that Horowitz gave Byron Janis lessons for years, and in that entire time never "demonstrated" anything by playing during the lesson.

A man after my own heart!

Frankly, who cares if your teacher is a proficient sightreader.   You seem to be making amazing progress . . . or maybe I just lead a sheltered life.

Keep up the good work ! ! !

[stormx]

Glyptodont, thanks for your compliments, but my Fur Elise still sounds horrible !!! 

I have been working on it for 3 or 4 months  (only part time, because i learned many simpler and nice pieces concurrently). I think i really tackled it prematurely. This was my mistake (not my teacher).
I still have many troubles, specially with C section (you know, the one where the left hand play repeated notes, and the right hand plays chords). The notes are there, but the sound is not good (i have to soft the left hand, that sound too loud), and play it a little faster (it is out of tempo compared with the rest of the piece).
Another problem spot is the very fast passage at the end of B part. 
To sum it up, only the well known part sounds acceptable for the moment 

[xvimbi]

I have been working on it for 3 or 4 months  (only part time, because i learned many simpler and nice pieces concurrently). I think i really tackled it prematurely. This was my mistake (not my teacher).
I still have many troubles, specially with C section (you know, the one where the left hand play repeated notes, and the right hand plays chords). The notes are there, but the sound is not good (i have to soft the left hand, that sound too loud), and play it a little faster (it is out of tempo compared with the rest of the piece).
Another problem spot is the very fast passage at the end of B part. 
To sum it up, only the well known part sounds acceptable for the moment 

I was wondering about your Fuer Elise. How do play it without pedal? But if the "C section" is the only thing that is giving you trouble, then you have almost made it, because it's the "B section" that is the hardest part.

[mound]

My teacher doesn't play for me either, and I prefer it that way. Once in a blue moon he'll sit down to demonstrate a movement or something, but he won't play the pieces he has me playing, only so I don't get "influenced" by his playing.  I'm quite sure he is capable of doing so, and I know he can sight read fluently.  I do listen to many recordings, and he encourages that. he just doesn't want me to try to sound like him.  Scales and arpeggios were the beginning 10-15 minutes of every lesson for the first year, until I had made it through every key. Initially we started by going through the circle of fifths, but then he started having me do them in the key of the pieces I was working on. We do harmonic analysis of the pieces in the lesson, but that is certainly not the focus, as it's expected I'll do that on my own.  Pedalling technique got started right away, on the first method book piece I worked on.  We never work on sight-reading in the lesson. I'm expected to work on that on my own time as well.

Can you see the pattern here? "Book knowledge" - we do talk about it, but it is not the focus, as I can do that on my own. I bring him questions when I have them and he'll ask me questions when he feels so inclined.  "Physical Knowldge" - that is, the tecnical aspects of playing, movement and agogics is the focus of the lesson, as that is the stuff that one cannot easilly develop without guidance.

[stormx]

I was wondering about your Fuer Elise. How do play it without pedal? But if the "C section" is the only thing that is giving you trouble, then you have almost made it, because it's the "B section" that is the hardest part.

Xvimbi,

I just play it, without pedal  
It does not sound SO bad without pedalling, after all   . Or perhaps i just got used  
I will add the pedalling later (i am not using the pedal at all, for the moment).

Regarding the dificulty of the differents sections, i find C harder than B. About B, the run of 1/32 notes at the end is what i find the hardest. I play the entire piece at an slow tempo (because of technical limits AND because i hate Fur Elise played fast), and when arriving at that section, i have a tendence to over-accelerate   , making mistakes as a consequence...

[mound]

In one sense, being used to playing w/o pedal might make it easier for you to start tastefully adding it in. Generally, the problem is folks holding down the pedal to compensate for poor technique.

[llamaman]

Fur Elise is a difficult piece if you have been taking lessons for only 7 months. Fur Elise was a piece I wanted to play when I was in the early grades, as I wanted to learn it before I got to the grade level it was at. It took me 3 months, and now I have it perfect and memorized. Hints for the B section: practice very slowly at first, and make sure you hit EVERY note right, then speed it up a little, and make sure you get EVERY note right, etc., until you can play it at speed. Correct fingering is a must here. Counting it out loud helps too. For the C section, practice the left hand alone with pedal, softly, until you can do it right. The right hand takes a lot of practice, as some of the notes require stretching and conracting the hand at high speed. Hope that helped. It helped me.

[eins]

I am impressed with your obvious progress. I'm too green a piano pea to compare much (just finished week five of six crammed weeks of a summer semester at college)  and I have something to contribute to one of your questions.

We have two lessons per week, 90 minutes each.
The first 30 to 45 minutes are to introduce new theory and assignments, the rest is for practicing and the teacher coming to each student to check off progress and to critique. We follow Alfred's group piano 1 and so far have covered reading notes within four octaves, finding the keys on the piano, five-finger patterns through all keys except B, chord progressions I - IV - I and I - V7 - I, identifying all major key signatures, time signatures and counting rhythm within them. We are building repertoire out of Alfred's book, with individual guidance depending on a student's progress and ability. Today we started scales for all major keys but B. Next week is the final examn and the week after, I'm starting the second semester, again crammed into six short summer weeks. Following that will be a long fall semester of Basics, namely harmony and composition.

I like the combination of all aspects, repertoire, theory, technique. I'm amazed how much I have learned in such a short time and I truly enjoy learning this new 'language'. I am very happy about my earlier decision to just go out and buy a piano and finally start to learn. At age 57, mind you 

stormx, I think you are going in a good direction the way you move forward now, and buying one of the beginner books that cover theory could be a good addition to your curriculum. It can be done in self-study and I would think your teacher can answer questions as they come up.

Best

[robertp]

On teacher playing or not playing. I've seen, over the years, it's a very personal thing. Some teachers I've had didn't until I was quite aways into a piece, on the principle that it would overly influence me and, on a really hard piece, discourage me. They also tended to be opposed to listening to recordings at the same time. Others were the exact opposite.

I've not found any correlation with that and how well the teacher and I worked together. My two superb teachers played (and play -- the second is my current one) the parts I was working on. Not at the staart, but to illustrate a point in the course of a lesson. Didn't discourage at all. One, an arrived virtuoso, would sometimes drop in a few bars of something else to illustrate a particular point he was making. I was not in the least discouraged when a couple of bars of Mephisto Waltz would come out. Quite the contrary.

[Glyptodont]

Stormex--

It does sound to me from your mid-thread reply that Fur Elise is a little beyond you right now.

The problem with some of these "overreaching" efforts is that you eventually can play it, after investing an altogether disproportunate amount of time, but it never really sounds right.

A couple of ideas for material--  I dug through my piano bench and came up with the following:

"Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course" puts out a book called "Greatest Hits: Movies."  It is labeled "Level 2."   It has a nice arrangement of "The Way We Were," the piece made famous by Barbara Streisand many years ago.

I also came up with the "Anyone Can Play . . ." series,  put out by Warner Bros. Publishing.  I happen to have the Edward MacDowell version.  I started with this, then went on and purchased MacDowell's original scores.  Having played these simplified arrangements and then having played the original score, I can safely say that these arrangements are rather nicely done.   They are easIER, but not really that easy.  But within reach from where you are.  Instead of a 4-note chord in the right and a tenth interval in the left, they "streamline" the piece.  This "Anyone Can Play . . ." series includes a number of composers.

John W. Schaum edits a nice book of Chopin that is simplified somewhat.  At your level, it would still not be any "piece of cake."

At risk of offending you, perhaps you would really enjoy playing pieces other than the "old war horses" like Fur Elise.   

I repeat, the fact that you can play Fur Elise at all, even if imperfectly, after only 7 months-- very impressive.

You really need to ENJOY your piano, because if you don't, as an adult, you will quit.  You don't have mom and dad withholding your allowance or grounding you, so enjoyment is the only motivator you have.

Enjoyed this thread very much--

[stormx]

Stormex--
It does sound to me from your mid-thread reply that Fur Elise is a little beyond you right now.
The problem with some of these "overreaching" efforts is that you eventually can play it, after investing an altogether disproportunate amount of time, but it never really sounds right.
A couple of ideas for material--  I dug through my piano bench and came up with the following:
"Alfred's Basic Adult Piano Course" puts out a book called "Greatest Hits: Movies."  It is labeled "Level 2."   It has a nice arrangement of "The Way We Were," the piece made famous by Barbara Streisand many years ago.
I also came up with the "Anyone Can Play . . ." series,  put out by Warner Bros. Publishing.  I happen to have the Edward MacDowell version.  I started with this, then went on and purchased MacDowell's original scores.  Having played these simplified arrangements and then having played the original score, I can safely say that these arrangements are rather nicely done.   They are easIER, but not really that easy.  But within reach from where you are.  Instead of a 4-note chord in the right and a tenth interval in the left, they "streamline" the piece.  This "Anyone Can Play . . ." series includes a number of composers.
John W. Schaum edits a nice book of Chopin that is simplified somewhat.  At your level, it would still not be any "piece of cake."
At risk of offending you, perhaps you would really enjoy playing pieces other than the "old war horses" like Fur Elise.   
I repeat, the fact that you can play Fur Elise at all, even if imperfectly, after only 7 months-- very impressive.
You really need to ENJOY your piano, because if you don't, as an adult, you will quit.  You don't have mom and dad withholding your allowance or grounding you, so enjoyment is the only motivator you have.
Enjoyed this thread very much--

Thanks for your suggestions and advices 

You are completely right about Fur Elise. I shouldnt have began it so prematurely. But now, even if i cannot play it well, having all the notes, it seems a pitty to abandon it. So, i will slowly continue to play and hopefully improve it, until it sounds decent 

On the other hand, i do not like simplified versions. If the real thing is out of reach (almost everything falls into this category  ), i prefer to tackle another piece within my level.

For instance, i have just completed Scarlatti K.32 (it took me 2 weeks. Thanks Bernhard !!!), and i am working on Clementi Sonatina Op.36 n°1 (first movement completed, second almost completed, third still untouched . Each movement took me around 2/3 weeks).

Thanks you all for your feedback !!