Good uprights for teaching?

[ptmidwest]

We are looking for GOOD uprights for teaching purposes, including more advanced students when the grands are not available.  Any experience to share?

[Axtremus]

Two key pieces of info needed to address your question is missing:

1. Price range -- how much are you willing to spend for an upright?

2. Definition of "advanced" student -- what grade level going by what system or what repertoire do you have in mind to define "advanced"?

[ptmidwest]

Thank you.

I haven't had to buy an upright for decades, so I am prepared for stickershock if we don't find used piano(s).  Therefore, I don't know what the answer for $$ really is.  I do know that we will HAVE to end up with an upright that will take a lot of use for many years, wherever we find it/them.

Each upright will be used for lessons ages pre-school through competition-level pianists, and though we do have some grands available for their use already, the uprights must at least be playable for these advanced students.  Good sound is necessary, too, because teachers have to listen to them, too!

Our uprights are shot.  There are about 30 lessons each week on them, and a few hours practicing, too.  They will have to be tough, and hold tuning well.

[asyncopated]

Hi,

I am playing on an upright, and have done some hunting around when looking for a piano.  I agree that a good quality instrument is essential.  Once your students learn to listen to their playing, the palette of sounds that can be made on a good instrument is vastly different. 

There are a number of factors to consider when buying a piano.

1. Sound.
2. Price -- this is always an issue. 
Perhaps I should say value.  How much value are you getting for the price you pay.
3. Make -- This ties in with the sound.
4. Height -- So does the height, it is crucial.
5. Touch -- This is largely a matter of preference.

In the end, the choice is subjective.  Also, it depend on where you live and what is available.  Despite sigma with second hand pianos, I would not rule a second hand piano out all together.  You get a lot more value out of these if you know that it's a good piano.

Here is a rough guide that I found.  The easiest way to classify a piano is by it's make.

In general, I think that Japanese pianos (yamaha/kawai) are cheaper than European made ones.  They have a slightly lighter timber. For Japanese pianos the height is a huge factor.  It determines the size of the sound board and the resonating chamber, and the type of strings (thickness/density/length).  Shorter strings in general do not sustain notes so well.   This is especially true if you are getting a factory made piano.  These pianos are not adjusted carefully, to coax the best possible sound.  So in general the bigger the upright is the better.  If you are getting a yamaha/kawai, I would recommend least a 125 cm, preferably a 132 cm.  Yamaha has a very light touch and the keys are slightly shallow.   It is very easy to play, in the sense that you don't have to put in much effort to make a reasonable sound.  But in my opinion, the tone palette is slightly one dimensional.  Kawais do slightly better, with a firmer touch and has, in general a richer tone. 

If you can afford a german made piano from a good maker, these are exquisite.  Each maker has a unique sound.  An Ibach sounds different from a Schimmel (now tied with yamaha).  Most of the smaller makers individually craft their pianos, and they have proper sound technicians working with each individual piano.  I would consider a smaller german made piano.  If you can afford a large one, all the better.  In general, the tones are rich.  The actions vary from a medium touch to a pretty heavy touch. 

Eastern european pianos are pretty good as well.  Again these have a different quality.  They are slightly cheaper, but produce a beautify sound.  Some of the pianos have a heavier touch (petrof).

I wouldn't consider a china or korean made piano.  There might be some good ones around, but I think they are slightly difficult to find.

I looked around for a couple of months and decided to buy a second hand piano.  I think that if these are well preserved, they are very good value for money.  I was deliberating between a big 132 cm Kawai, and a small German piano Seiler. 

Both are very nice pianos, but in the end decided to go for the Seiler.  I am very happy with my decision.  It is a beautify piano, and makes a wonderful sound.

Happy piano hunting!

al.
 

[ptmidwest]

Thank you very much. 

I too feel very comfortable with used pianos; I have had much better experiences with our used ones than colleagues have with their new ones.

 Saturday will be our first big piano-shopping trip.  I'm glad I'm not alone!

[ptmidwest]

a Yamaha Disklavier...Someone suggested this.   

Anyone really know?

[jolly]

Depending on money....

Kawai K series, Yamaha P22, Yamaha U series or my favorite stealth piano...

Charles Walter.

[ptmidwest]

I'm liking a Baldwin Hamilton. 

[griffins dad]

I would also recommend the Yamaha P22.  This is their workhorse piano and is moderatley priced.  IN fact, Berkley School of Music has roughly 200 P22's in their practice rooms. 

The tone is even and the touch is responsive enough for even the most demanding player.

[Axtremus]

a Yamaha Disklavier...Someone suggested this.   

Anyone really know?

"Disklavier" is a Yamaha acoustic piano with a built-in player system. I suppose it might be a good pedagogic tool to record the students playing keystroke by keystroke and then have it played back on the acoustic piano so that student can take a 3rd party view to critique his own playing... but you need big bucks to buy a piano with such a system, and I do not know of any piano teacher that actually uses one for teaching.

Oh... I like the Baldwin Hamilton too, the old ones... they sound nice and they seem to last forever. Though I have not seriously played any new Hamilton since Gibson took over Baldwin, so I have no idea what the new ones are like.

I was hoping you'd tell me what level of competition you have in mind to define "advanced." Be that as it may, I'd say big tall Yamaha (e.g., the 52 inch tall U3 or U5) for three simple reasons: (1) the U-series uprights are perhaps the most widely used and time-tested upright line of piano that is in current production, the archetypical "workhorses" with a track record to show that it is reliable and can withstand constant heavy use over a wrong period of time, (2) big enough to give decent tone and house a decent action, (3) usually much cheaper than the German uprights of comparable size.

Now, between the U3 and the U5, aside from the tonal difference that you have to listen for yourself, though they are of the same height, the U5 spots a true sostenuto pedal that the U3 doesn't have. (Same situation with Kawai's K-80 vs. K-60, both 52", one with true sostenuto, one without.) But my view is that students would need true grand piano action before they need sostenuto, and they would need the grand piano's una corda ebefore they need sostenuto... so unless you really cannot live without the tone of the U5 (or K-80), I'd just stop at the U3/K-60 with uprights or go straight for the grands, even if it's a 5'6" small grand.

Which is also why I am only luke-warn about the even more expensive uprights (e.g., Steinway, European/German) -- because with that kind of money, for students, I think a small grand piano gives better bang for the buck -- true grand piano action, true shifting una-corda, and most likely a true sostenuto, things that advanced pianists should learn to use well anyway.

Anyway, that's just my thinking if I were the one to stock up my teaching studio.

[026497]

Please don't buy a expensive Japanese piano. (If you can afford a European piano)
I had a terrible experience with it. My first piano was Yahama. (It costed as a European piano) Its timber was too light. When I had an exam on piano with a grand Seiler, f becomed mp, mp was silent.

[Axtremus]

Please don't buy a expensive Japanese piano. (If you can afford a European piano)
I had a terrible experience with it. My first piano was Yahama. (It costed as a European piano) Its timber was too light. When I had an exam on piano with a grand Seiler, f becomed mp, mp was silent.

Your problem was one of transitioning from a familiar piano to an unfamiliar piano. Had you been practicing on a Seiler grand all year and then given a Yamaha upright in your exam, what's to say that you wouldn't have had problem executing? Your pp might have become mp, and your mp might have become f. If one were to choose a piano to optimize for exams, Yamaha might well be his best bet for the simple reason that there may well be more Yamaha uprights used in exams than just about any other brand.

[jeremyjchilds]

I actually was just in your position...it is a tough call but here is my advice...

For under $1500, your absolute best bet is to buy a huge old upright built between 1905-1915, provided it is in good shape. Having said that, keep in mind that there are also a lot of deteriorated pianos (these are worth 150-250 dollars) Some things to keep in mind when trying some pianos out
If possible, try to get one that is from a consistant climate. Please Please keep in mind that

[jeremyjchilds]

...sorry about the little hiccup there.

things to look for in the old big  pianos
1) owned in a consistent climate
2) Make sure that it has not had a poor re-keytopping job. if the tech was careless, the keys were probably not surfaced properly, and the thicker plastic tops will make the keys too tall (check for proper key dip, black keys should not dip below white keys)
3)Strike the low octave firmly. A wooly muffled sould indicates tired old strings (you do not want to pay for a re-stringing)
4) run your hands over the tops of the hammers with light pressure, feel for any side to side play which indicates loose center pins.
5) If possible, look for cracks in the  pinblock (very serious)
6) play a high reble note repeatedly (40-60X) quickly to check for pin bushings that swell with friction heat (repitition will be compromised)
7) Have a tech come with you if the piano has passed all of these tests, for a finaltest to check for regulation progblems

Now, if you want to spend some real money...

I just bought a Seiler Upright and love it, the bass and treble sections are "exciting", not lifeless, I must agree that japanese pianos must be large in order to really have the power needed for high-level playing.

As a technician, I cannot argue the overall reliability of yamaha, as long as it is not a brand new small upright (not made in Japan)
Yamaha uprights are the "toyota" of pianos they will get you there safely, and uneventfully, and you will get good resale, but it is no mercedes.

Chinese pianos are genereally bad...especially for heavy use applications. I have repaired far too many actions on 10 year old pianos from that neck of the woods. hope this helps

[jr11]

I just bought a Seiler Upright and love it, the bass and treble sections are "exciting", not lifeless,

Jeremy, I believe I know the piano you purchased (a Primus), and if so, you have made an excellent choice! I was going to suggest such an instrument as the perfect model for a professional studio application. The response and big sound of a quality grand in a compact package.

Congratulations, I know you and your students will be very pleased for many years to come.

[jeremyjchilds]

Yeah, I love it, I didnt even know much about seiler,untill I walked into the showroom and saw this upright in the room with all the grands... I've played a lot of pianos, and I must say that it is the best sounding small piano I've heard, the key is to make sure the lid is cracked open an inch. I'm sure someone will argue with me and say that thier piano is better...

[Axtremus]

As a technician, I cannot argue the overall reliability of yamaha, as long as it is not a brand new small upright (not made in Japan)
Yamaha uprights are the "toyota" of pianos they will get you there safely, and uneventfully, and you will get good resale, but it is no mercedes.

Let's say your statement above is entirely true, still, we're talking about uprights FOR TEACHING. How often do you see driving instructor teach driving using with a Mercedez?

My view is that if you're going to use the piano as a money making tool, after making sure that the tool is basically up to the task (i.e., can provide the required level of performance), the most important thing is that the tool is reliable, that it works all the time under heavy use over the long term! Extra performance beyond the required level is a "nice to have," but reliability is a "MUST have." Because whenever your money making tool stops working right, you stop making money.

That said, that doesn't mean you can't find one that is both highly reliable and high-performing. It becomes a trade-off with ROI then, "Return On Investment," how much more are you willing to invest into your money-making tool and how much more you think you can make if you invest more for that supposedly "higher-performing" tool. (And whether you'll be able to withstand more pain if your students "accidentally" put scratches on your more expensive pianos! There are reasons why driving schools don't teach with a fleet of Mercedez.)

[jeremyjchilds]

First of all, my statement is not entirely true.... it is true for 102 of the 103 yamaha uprights that I tuned over last year but there are always exceptions.
Second of all, I don't feel like my post discouraged anyone from buying a yamaha  piano, In fact, I came really close to buying a U1 for the same reasons.

I feel like I got a better long-term tool for my studio with my piano, and it only cost about 35% more than a comparable yamaha...students and thier parents notice the difference, and I feel it was worth it even though nobody recognizes the brand name...it's not yamaha or stienway

The fact is, that an exciting piano has an intangibility to it and my students faces light up a lot more when Crashing octaves are performed down into the bass. (for example)

To me, it was worth it for a few extra grand, remember that the topic poster asked about good pianos and mentioned advanced students

I have to admit that I do see a lot more toyota corollas used for driving schools though...

[Axtremus]

Jeremyjchilds,

It's not my intention to contest your assessment of those pianos. I simply wanted to make a point that the selection criteria may be legitimately different depending on whether you're looking for "good upright for personal enjoyment" or "good upright for teaching." (And of course, sometimes these selection criteria may converge and you might end up choosing the same piano for both uses.)

[026497]

Your problem was one of transitioning from a familiar piano to an unfamiliar piano. Had you been practicing on a Seiler grand all year and then given a Yamaha upright in your exam, what's to say that you wouldn't have had problem executing? Your pp might have become mp, and your mp might have become f. If one were to choose a piano to optimize for exams, Yamaha might well be his best bet for the simple reason that there may well be more Yamaha uprights used in exams than just about any other brand.

It may be a problem of transitioning from a familiar piano to an unfamiliar piano. I use a Seiler piano to practice now. When I am given a Yahama piano  to play, p becomes mp. I can control my strength later. I still think it is better not to use a Japanese piano because you are able to put less strength but not more if you are transitioning a unfailiar piano.

[haflinger99]

What do you think about a Schimmel piano? I have a Schimmel-upright at home and really love the sound!

[Axtremus]

What do you think about a Schimmel piano? I have a Schimmel-upright at home and really love the sound!

General impression: Good.

[ptmidwest]

THANK YOU ALL, VERY MUCH!  for your comments.  There were several good points that I had not considered. 

I was ready to jump right in a month ago and buy, but learning what I'm learning takes time, and it takes blocks of time (a half a day long!) just to go see different instruments...

As a teacher I realize that I am the one that may be listening to a certain instrument for hours at a time...the students generally only have a short spot on a certain piano once or a few times a week.  A piano that is not pleasant to listen to can really grate...

Now we are working on one room at a time.  The first room is smallish, but has high ceilings.  I want to be SURE we can play softly on whatever piano we get. 

As of today, the Disklavier is out.  The top-running ones are a Henry F. Miller 47-inch,  a Boston UP-118S, and a Yamaha P22 (I think it's P22). 

You all are being very helpful; thank you!

[jeremyjchilds]

The Yamaha  is a decent piano...one thing to keep in mind.

It is the school district piano where I live, and they went out and  bought millions of them a while back.

So therefore, I have tuned a lot of them. I have noticed that they don't have the same consistency that you might get from a U1 for example.  I have heard some really really nice ones, and of course, I have heard some very poor ones.

My advice is to shop around and try to play at least 4 New or used examples of that particular piano so you can start to get an idea of this range that I have noticed (if you have heard  a lot of pianos, you may be able to pick up on this right away)

Of course, the pianos I worked with were all used and in varying condition, but there still did seem to be a lot of varyance

IF you get a good one, you have got a good piano!! good luck

[ptmidwest]

Gee whiz, this is dragging out.   Thank you all so much.  These posts are loaded with information, but my head is spinning.  (WE ARE STILL ON THE FIRST ROOM and the semester started today doggonit)


For about $3000 is a Henry F Miller new, or... 
one in the Yamaha P- or U-series, dangit, I've forgotten now.  new, don't know the pricing yet.

Told you my head is spinning.

[maryruth]

A really good upright is the Fandrich & Sons. It's spendy, though.  But it has the fastest action you can get in an upright.  Check out their website:  www.fandrich.com.  I know Darrell personally.  I own their 6" grand.  Darrell tunes and regulates my piano.  He used to be a Steinway concert tuner (he tuned Liberace's pianos on occassion and Horowitz's in Seattle in 1978).

He's a mad scientist type and has patented an action for the upright that gives it a grand feel.  It's really amazing!

Darrell's spent years getting just exactly the sound he wants to come out of his pianos.  It's a real beautiful tonal quality.  The soft pedal and pianissimo is absolutely breath-taking.  I've played my piano for people and it's made them cry because it's so beautiful.

His goal was to create a piano that projected well but also sounded good to the player.  He thinks Steinways sound great to the audience, but not always so good to the player.  He tried to cross a Steinway with a Mason & Hamlin. 

[ptmidwest]

Thank you, Maryruth.  Thank you, everyone.

OKAY.  It is done.  It is finished.  The first room will have a Pearl River upright.  We kind of fell into a deal on the price (cuz someone knows someone), and it sounds good, feels good.  I was hesitant to get more than one Pearl River, though, because only time will tell...

Depending on what we "run into" in the next three months, we may end up with a very nice Baldwin (my hands-down favorite in this search), and two lower-end Yamahas.

JeremyChilds, you will appreciate this:  of all the helpful advice from reading and from forums and such, the most help came from dragging our piano technician around with us.  He was invaluable and will surely go to heaven.

I have heard and played over 150 pianos in the last few months.  I must win the lottery, I must!

[ptmidwest]

Now we have a used Baldwin upright that sounds and feels terrific.  Without a piano technician along we would have overlooked this one.  On behalf of all of us, thank you all you tuners and techs!!