Dream student no longer?

[lagin]

So you teachers, please answer honestly even if it's not pretty.  If you had a student that was a real go getter and entered all the competitons, and did really well, and even won a scholarship, how would you react if that same student decided they didn't want to compete any more?  Btw, this student is the best student you've ever had.  I mean, they would still work hard, and practice diligently, and even go to workshops, but they just don't want to compete anymore.  You see, they realize that when they do compete, it just becomes about "winning," and not about loving music.  So honestly, and I mean honestly, for a student can bring a teacher much acclaim by winning all the time, how would you feel?  Would you still enjoy working with that student as much, if they're practice habits were excellant, or would it be tainted in that you could no longer "live out your dream" through them.  Your thoughts and why please? 

[Siberian Husky]

i think this "student" of yours should go on a date with a californian to reduce stress...this should be step one

[abell88]

I hope I would be able to respect their decision...I myself was too shy (and not that talented) and only ever played in one recital (when I was 13)...which I now regret.

I would hope my student (is it you, lagin?) would have at least some opportunities to share their music with others, either formally or informally...but I don't think competitions are necessarily the best or only way to do it. Recitals or non-competitive festivals are other possibilities. 

I do have one student who does well in (small, local) competitions, and to be quite honest, I have felt that her success validates me as a teacher...but that's my insecurity coming out.

[mound]

Well, I'm not a teacher, nor do I enter competitions.  Assuming for a moment your student doesn't plan on making a career as a concert pianist (and perhaps even if he/she does) - I might say "smart kid" -  the whole "competition" side of music, to me, is just assinine. That is absolutely not what music should be about.  You end up with a bunch of soulless robots whom have entirely missed the point. Glenn Gould was smart enough to know this  

And as far as you feeling a student must win competitions in order to boost your ego, perhaps it is you who needs a lesson in what is important and what is not.

[anda]

my teacher was kind of disappointed, but he kept working with me same as before. it's been a long time since i'm not officially his student anymore, and he still helps me whenever i need it.

[Torp]

I mean, they would still work hard, and practice diligently, and even go to workshops, but they just don't want to compete anymore.  You see, they realize that when they do compete, it just becomes about "winning," and not about loving music.

Seems to me that you've just described a dream student, dedicated, hard working; AND they do it because they love it.  Perfect...

Jef

[ted]

If you have made the student aware of his or her capability I think you have done your job. The student's musical fulfilment and happiness must surely be the long term objective, and you cannot decide what makes somebody else happy.

[Daevren]

I would be really proud.

I don't see the value of competitions except competing for fun and getting a chance to play with an orchestra.

I am not really knowledgable about the classical culture. Would not competing mean this person could not have a career as a professional performer? Is this person studying or going to study music?


Maybe the question should be rephrased; Dream student wants to stay an amateur.

Right?

[lagin]

The student wants to get her performance and teacher's certificates, but aims to teach or adjudicate, but not have a career as a "performer."  Thanks for your replies, btw.

[abell88]

A student can certainly have a career as a teacher/adjudicator without being a competition winner. 

[lagin]

Yes, that is true.  I was mainly just wondering how or if the change would affect the student/teacher relationship.

[Bob]

A teacher can't really force their student to compete, can they?

I think the attitude going into the competition is important -- It's not the winning or placing (because who knows what kind of pianists you compete against, right?), it's a performance opportunity that can motivate a student and finish off a piece nicely.  The student can learn something from the performance, esp with judges' comments.

It should have no impact whether that student is the teacher's best or worst.

A teacher should not be living out the fantasies of performance competitions through a student.

It does look good for a teacher to have students winning competitions.  It gives them something to measure themselves a little and it can be used to attract new students.  Consider how you feel about a teacher that says, "My students perform very well," compared with one who says, "My students perform very well.  One just won competition."  Even if it's a mediocre competition, just being able to say that adds prestige.

If this student is in a university on a scholarship, the competition might be required.  Some schools have "hired guns" they recruit with scholarships.  These students go out and perform to promote the school and make the school look attractive to future students.  In that case, whatever the requirements of scholarship are go.  If the student doesn't agree any more, they can always pay their own way.



The teacher should be okay with it.  The goal isn't about competition.  That's just one possibility.  I would wonder about a teacher who insists on competitions.

[vera]

If this was your most successful student so far, you might regret no longer having a "living" advertisement. I do understand that. We teachers make our name often, and attract the better students, because we have success with earlier ones in competitions. It is a fact, that no-one can deny. However, we should never make use of our students, or even put pressure on them. Some find out, after just one successful participation in a competition, that they do not like it.
If that is so, you MUST accept, and find out what sort of performing they do like, or possibly not at all. A very good player, who does not want to perform, may make a very good teacher, if they understand the music so well. I have had this sort of thing happen fairly regularly. You have to go with the flow, and never show any disappointment. You cannot live their lives for them.
Musical careers can be made totally without competitions, it may be more difficult, but can be done.And if they don't want, they will have a lovely hobby for life.
I do not know, if any of you have noticed it, but there are quite a few students, who reach a very high level of playing in their school-years, doing diplomas and all that , but then study medicine afterwards.

[whynot]

Lagin, I believe that you are the student in this story, not the teacher.  Your post made me very happy, by the way.  In my opinion, a good teacher supports the dreams of the student.  If the student is motivated to work and make music for its own sake, that is a gift to the world that we can all be very happy about.  If the teacher wants to point out that the student is ABLE to continue in the achievements of winning competitions, that's fine.  That's just information-- and encouragement-- and the student can do whatever she wishes with that.  But if the teacher is truly disappointed, that is for the teacher to bear PRIVATELY.  Teaching is not for sissies!  It's paved with heartbreak, and it is very, very important for teachers to keep self-checking on what they teach, why, and on whose behalf.  I'm a teacher, I can spout about stuff like that.  It is not the student's job to make us look good.  We love it when they do! how could we not, but it isn't their responsibility.  Their responsibility is to themselves and to the music.  Our job is to share ourselves and our understanding in such a way as to help the student on her OWN path.  (Thus endeth the lesson.) 

Very best wishes on your own path.         

[Siberian Husky]

my advice still stands firmly lagin...

movies?...

clam chowder by the san francisco piers?..

or maybe just a stroll out on the town?...

its your "student's" call...


*leaves rose*

~~~{~~~@

[bernhard]

I would welcome such a change of heart.

First because I do not really believe in competitions (music is not a sport after all).

Second because I personally hate the stress associated with exams, competitions and music festivals – I only do it because the way society is organised it would not be in the student’s best interests not to expose him/her to such.

Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, because I do not really care about the student’s glory in a competition reflecting on me. Nor do I believe it will make much of a difference. Although some of my students have taken part in music festivals with success, this never resulted in my name making the celebrity lists, nor did it decrease or increase the number o students knocking at my door. If you want fame and celebrity, enter the competition yourself.

Also you may consider this: No matter how talented your student is, the life of a concert pianist may not be for him/her (I know that I would hate such a life). And maybe exposure to competitions has just given him/her a taste of things to come and s/he has decided that this is not what s/he wants. In fact many concert pianists hate what they do but are stuck into it (Glenn Gould comes to mind, and also that guy – cannot remember his name – who recently retired from the stage and dropped his piano in a lake).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Astyron]

I too believe, Lagin, that you're the student.  You could have asked as a student and not written as if you were a teacher.  I doubt answers you recieved would have been different, and you would have had the opportunity to be more honest.

How would you react if that same student decided they didn't want to compete any more?     It would depend the reasons I would hypethetically be requiring competition.  I require my students to perform in a recital or they cannot be in my studio.  I require the older students to participate in a solo festival of some sort (solo and ensemble, or a competition).  The reason I require it is so students can have and understand the experience of performing under pressure.  It's valuable for students to know how to perform in this environment.  Not only for musical reasons but because we all have to perform under pressure in life.  It's life practice.  Also, many competitions give not only places and "winners" but feedback from the judges.  This is the best reason to send a student into a competition; so they can get feedback from other professional musicians and perhaps gain more insite to their playing via a different opinion.  Other teachers may require their students to compete and push them to win if they know the student plans on a performance degree at a university -- then the teacher would be RIGHT to push the student very hard.  If a student is going to be noticed by symphonies, or world famous teacher, that student is going to be competing and winning competitions. 

Therefore, if one of my students told me they didn't want to compete anymore, I would tell them it was a requirement of my studio and explain why.  The student could be HONEST and explain right to my face why they didn't want to compete.  If it was merely a battle of wills and they were going to have a fit or be stubborn I would tell them they could find a new teacher, best student or not.   Taking lessons is not only about loving music.  It's about learning and accepting the responsibility of what comes with a particular teacher's expectations.  This would of course be very painful for me, but that's how it is.

For a student who can bring a teacher much acclaim by winning all the time, how would you feel? If a teacher is using a student like a grand champion dog in shows, that's wrong.  However, it's just as wrong of a student to assume this is what the teacher is doing.  The teacher may have a motive for sending students to competitions that they havn't communicated to the student very well.  The student should talk to the teacher and find out what the teachers main motivation for encouraging competitions is. 

Would you still enjoy working with that student as much, if they're practice habits were excellant, or would it be tainted in that you could no longer "live out your dream" through them?   Teachers don't "live out their dreams" through their student.  Washed up performers "live out their dreams" through their students, not teachers.  Again, don't assume that's what's happening, if you are indeed the student.  And if you are the teacher (which I doubt), you ought to check yourself and reasess why you teacher.

My advice:
1. Talk to your teacher about how you feel.  Be HONEST.
2. Ask them why competitions and winning are so important to them.
3. Share with your teacher what your plans are for music in your life -- hobby, teaching, composing, performance, etc.
4. Ask other music teachers if the reasons you were given for competition are good ones, if you're not sure.
5. Find a new teacher if your present teacher only pushes you to live vicariously through you or baske in the glory of a successful student (but only after you did 1, 2 and 3.)

[lagin]

Alright, I'm the student.  At these competitions/festivals they have an alternative class for non competitors.  You get the same adjudicator and the same feed back on your playing, but no "first, second, third."  I've been leaning towards this, but I know my teacher would still prefer I compete.  I think you're right about being honest.  Recently, I actually did tell her I would consider competing if she could convince me of a good reason.  I don't need the motivation because my exams are already motivating me to keep on top of things and pay attention to detail.  I don't need the money if I win because it's only like 100 dollars anyway, and that's not even a lesson's worth.  And I'm sure someone else could use that more than me.  I still play for the adjudicator either way, so I'm still getting performance practice.  Mind you, if I win, I also play in a winner's concert, which is a bit of addition performing I wouldn't get otherwise.  So I don't know.  I just don't like how it's so easy to get caught up in the "winning."  I mean that's not what it's all about.  But when you're competing it so easily becomes that.  Astyron, what do you think would be best?  Now that all the cards are face up, hehe.

[Aziel]

Let Go.

[Astyron]

Mind you, if I win, I also play in a winner's concert, which is a bit of addition performing I wouldn't get otherwise.  So I don't know.  I just don't like how it's so easy to get caught up in the "winning."  I mean that's not what it's all about.  But when you're competing it so easily becomes that.

I think instead of giving your teacher an ultimatum (I'll compete IF you give me a good reason), which could offend your teacher, you should flat out ask these three questions:  Why are competitions valuable to you?  What do you gain from my competing in them?  What do you feel I gain from competing in them?

I think the winners performing in an additional concert is a superb thing and a great honor.  I was a runner up to perform in such a concert/competition ONCE and I didn't give a hoot if I won or not.  I did know that reaching that concert would mean increasing my chances of being noticed by a college, perhaps getting better scholarships.   

As far as getting getting caught up in winning, you're obviously not, and that's really the  most important thing.  If you're placing well in these competitions, it's not going to your head.  If you're not placing well in the competitions I would also hope it wouldn't cause negative feelings that are contributing to your feelings about the competitions.  You know..the competitive performance world of music is kind of funny.  You have to have an "I'm a winner" attitude to make it as a professional performer, at least to some degree.  I also felt that performing in those concerts and competitions were a great way to show my teacher how much I valued their teaching -- that was my mindset.  I always did my best for not only myself, but for my teacher because I wanted her to be proud of me.

While it's great to keep an even attitude about winning, there's nothing wrong with setting lofty goals.  I'm watching the Tour de France right now.  What if Lance felt that wanting to be a winner was wrong or unecessary?  Is he doing it for the money?..ok sure, maybe.  Is he doing it for fame and glory?  No.  Is he doing it because he  has a big ego and feels like he must win?  No.  He's a very level-headed guy who's kind and generous and knows he has a God-gifted talent on his machine -- why should he let that amazing talent go to waste?  He's not pushing hard to win all the stages (in fact he took his only stage win today), and he celebrates when others on his team win stages.  Yet, he will win his seventh Tour tomorrow.  The man had a vision and a goal, and achieves these humbly.  You can be a winner too, Lagin, but not be swept up in the ego you may have seen demonstrated by some of your peers.

Talk to your teacher.  If they have a vision for you, trust them.  Do you have a vision for you?

[moose_opus_28]

If you feel like you need a break, give yourself one.  But, competitions can be great for making yourself polish and work hard on pieces.

Personally, I love a place to play.  When you treat a competition as a performance with judges in the room, it's so much better.  Competitions can be quite fun if you don't have your hopes pinned on first place.  Besides, I've played amazingly well in places and gotten nothing.  I've also been beaten by a 9 year old.  I don't regret those competitions, because the performance was still fun.  So, the judges were stupid in my humble opinion.  I didn't get to play Rach 2 with an orchestra.  I got over it.

This summer, I competed in the Texas Music Teacher's state 11-12 solo competition.  I was ready.  I was focused on the music.  Winning wasn't thought of as a goal.  I was going to go in and get to perform the gorgeous Chopin Nocturne Op. 27 No 2 and the very cool 4th movement of the 1st Ginastera Sonata.  My thoughts were on the music.  I was able to tune out a happy cellphone ring during the last 2 lines of Chopin.  When it was over, and there was several seconds of silence before the applause, I wasn't thinking of whether I would win.  I was loving every bit of every moment.

I don't deny that it was fun to hear my name after 1st place an hour later, but it didn't compare to the joy of the performance.

[shasta]

Lagin, I believe that you are the student in this story, not the teacher. 

^^Very perceptive, great catch Whynot!

Lagin, good for you.  You must do what you feel is right for you to enjoy your music.  Best of luck!