A Few Questions: No3 Scherzo in Cmin

[nicolo]

Hello All,

I just joined the forum yesterday & the amount of information that is available here is like a musician's heaven.  So today it is still me asking for help, but I only hope that I can return the favor at some point.   

So if I may, I would like to ask a few questions regarding Chopin's Scherzo in C minor, because I am just about to begin studying it.  I've seen several past threads on this work but they did not address my questions, and please pardon me if this info is available but I just missed the thread.

Difficulty, used in rating sense, is very subjective I know, but I picked up from those threads that No 3 ranks as the 2nd (maybe 3rd) most difficult Scherzo of the four found outside of the Sonata form.  I was under the impression that it was one of Chopin's most difficult works period, as Paderewski in his music volumes, places it in the most difficult Group 7, along with the 'usual suspects' like the Apassionatta 1 movmt.  Then Rubinstein and his sheer speed just put the fear of God in me regarding as if the demonic & ragged opening phrases weren't enough.

So my question is regarding where the difficulties are found, including the part that would be considered most difficult.  One thing I like to do is identify those areas that will test my ability the most & get working on them to get an idea if I can handle the demands.  So if anyone could help me by making me aware of these types of things, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks All

 

[anda]

you mean scherzo in c# moll, i suppose. anyway, in short, the tricky parts (imo):

1. the coda
2. B section - the down runs in pp have to sound perfectly fluid
3. A section - obviously, playing the octaves in tempo; also, the b section (between the 1st and 2nd appearence of the theme in octaves) is no piece of cake.

but, alltogether, it sound much more difficult than it actually is.

best luck

[Rach3]

You mean the C# minor scherzo...

Difficulty, used in rating sense, is very subjective I know, but I picked up from those threads that No 3 ranks as the 2nd (maybe 3rd) most difficult Scherzo of the four found outside of the Sonata form.

Chopin wrote four Scherzi.

So my question is regarding where the difficulties are found, including the part that would be considered most difficult.

I've answered this exact question twice on the forum. The descending pianissimo eight-note figures, starting on page four, are the most difficult part of this piece. The same figure in E major is even more awkward (although some may disagree). Other than that, this piece is relatively pianistic. The hyperoctaves can be challenging (for obvious reasons), and the coda is rather frightningly fast, if pianistic.

edit: Additionally, the section that starts (f# g# e d# e c#) has somewhat awkward voicings, it can take a while to get it right.

Those are the major technical difficulties of the piece. I've written a bit of general technical advice here:
https://www.pianostreet.com/forum/index.php/topic,9613.0.html

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask them - there are maybe a hundred people on this fourm who've played this piece and are willing to help you.

-rach3

[nicolo]

Yes, C# minor of course.  What a dope, while I was at it I should have gone all the way & called it a song!

Chopin wrote four Scherzi.

Musical volumes, such as Schirmer remind us that he actually composed six Scherzi: Four of which are published as individual works, the fifth and sixth as second movements to Sonata No 2 Op 35 and Sonata No 3 Op 58, respectively.  Even though this is correct technically, it of course makes better musical sense when comparing/contrasting these works, to omit the last two from the group defined as "Scherzi" (or "Chopin Scherzi" for those who concern themselves with the scherzo form.)  While these four, totally self-contained, are best compared with each other, the final two must be viewed, along with the other movements, under the context of a sonata, in order to fully understand their meaning/purpose.  The comedic irony, borderlining on pathetic, is that originally I was 'covering my bases' when I alluded to this technicality, not only to elimate the the possibility that someone replies only to remind me of that there actually are 6, but also as part of the overall effort not to make any mistakes in my first post (my terrible spelling is beyond all hope)....and what do I do....I'm asking for help on a peice that doesn't even exist!!!  Scherzo No3 in C minor....and for some reason I have always reffered to it in writting as in C minor, yet if you played just the first bar, I would assume C# minor.  Oh well, at least I have no problem laughing at myself  .

I've answered this exact question twice on the forum. The descending pianissimo eight-note figures, starting on page four, are the most difficult part of this piece.

I apologize because I do recall reading this, but up until today I had never listened to the peice in the manner that I do if I'm preparing to play it.  That coupled with the fact that single finger agility is an area that I may take a little for granted as compared with other areas (yup, I'll have my hands full now).  So untill today for those reasons, I may have not taken notice just to the technique required but also to how often this ability is called on through out the peice. 

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask them - there are maybe a hundred people on this fourm who've played this piece and are willing to help you. 

I am going to ask yet another question, but first I just want to make something known.  I know this is a music forum, and it wouldn't be a forum without people asking questions, but doesn't change the fact one bit: That is a classy thing to say Rach, and this goes for all board members when I say that it is always greatly appreciated, and when the event(s) arise where the subject is a work that I can provide guidence on, I will be sure to adopt the same attitude.

I decided to commit to studying this Scherzo, and due to previous exposure to the music I know most if not all of the notes thru the opening octave section from memory, so I would commence on the section that I think you reffered to, Rach, that starts with (f# g# e d# e c#) - the single finger staccato in the left hand and completes when it introduces the resounding of the opening octave motif.  This section 'sounds' terribly difficult to me if not so much at the very beginning, with its Beethovenesqe rhythm, color & the matching requirement for exacting clarity, then certainly that much more as the section unfolds into the hallmark sound of Chopin Pianism.  I spent some time getting this post together, as I wanted to be very clear for this is not just a technique question.  The question is asked below and then I did the best I could in balancing comprehension vs length.  I hope I succeeded

**** Regarding Technique ONLY.   

Question:
Regarding the principles of standard and special technique, are there any technical points or keys in this section of the Scherzo, that must be present in order for it to sound correct?  Certain accents or dynamics etc?   

Comment -  'standard technique' vs 'special technique' using my words:
If good technique for any work is split into 2 parts.  The standard part would be the obvious requirements & those that apply across broad ranges of like music..all notes played distinctly, evenly, proper pedal, etc.  Many times just having good standard technique isn't enough because the peice still doesn't sound right.  The other part are special technical points that are specific to the current musical phrase & are not always indicated in the music.  In the Etude 25/11 (WW) you could have all the standard technique u want but if you don't accent the decending idvidual notes of the cromatic scale (top notes) within the 'run', it will not be the same.  In the first voicing of the melody in the Polonaise in A flat, standard technique would be to keep the notes clear, brisk, and un-muddy, which is usually the case in most peices.  The Polonaise will not sound right untill you (and just a few examples) accent top note in melody, base hand should be bearly heard against the melody,  So the special points are the ones that when you finaly discover them in a peice, make you say "now thats what its supposed to sound like"

I hope I was clear enough & should anyone what to bring up anything else about this formidable work, please do.

Thanks everyone,

Nico