sonatas

[BoliverAllmon]

do you think that writing sonatas is an art that is gone by the wayside? I mean mozart, Haydn, Beethoven all wrote several piano sonatas. I don't know of a single person that wrote at least  10 piano sonatas after them.

boliver

[dinosaurtales]

Prokofiev

[Etude]

Scriabin

[TheHammer]

Schubert


After Beethoven exploring so many possibilities to deal with sonata form, most composers had to think of a real masterwork to entitle it a Piano Sonata (unlike for example with Haydn, who could write even more than 50 sonatas). If you look at Liszt, Brahms or Schumann, they all were honouring Beethoven and considered themselves his heirs. It is the same with symphonies (compare over 100 symph. by Haydn to ridiculous 9 of Beethoven ).
Schubert, though, lived nearly at the same time as Beethoven, so he probably does not count. Prokofiev and Scriabin, although kind of connected with the musical past, have revived the Sonata in a new way, by connecting it with modern ideas etc.

Also take into consideration that during the Romantic Period, composer were discovering new ways of expressing their ideas, ways in which they would not be bound to strict rules, although these rules have been bent quite far. These rules seem to have made the sonata improper for most ideas of the great composers (so, it is easier to say, well, that is a nocturne, than to try to (ex)press the same ideas in a sonata movement), whereas some (Prok./Sriabin) were able to give this form a new meaning in their own style.

[Daevren]

Come on BoliverAllmon, you must have known that statement had to be incorrect.

It seems that composers became more critical and wrote less, wrote longer works and wrote works with more quality.

Sure one could compile a list of about 100 composers that composed more than 10 sonatas  who died after Beethoven died.

[BoliverAllmon]

Come on BoliverAllmon, you must have known that statement had to be incorrect.

It seems that composers became more critical and wrote less, wrote longer works and wrote works with more quality.

Sure one could compile a list of about 100 composers that composed more than 10 sonatas  who died after Beethoven died.

yeah I guess a brain fart.

[BoliverAllmon]

Prokofiev

did he really write 10? I thought he only wrote 8

[Daevren]

Are we talking about music composed in the sonata-allegro form or pieces called 'sonata'? Or four movement pieces with the first movement being a sonata-allegro form called 'sonata'?

Medtner is another famous example. He wrote 14 sonatas for piano.

[Rach3]

Quote from: dinosaurtales on Today at 01:43:59 PM
Prokofiev

did he really write 10? I thought he only wrote 8

Nine.

[maxy]

and we have fragments of what would have become #10

[Rach3]

Really? How big fragments?

[BoliverAllmon]

Are we talking about music composed in the sonata-allegro form or pieces called 'sonata'? Or four movement pieces with the first movement being a sonata-allegro form called 'sonata'?

Medtner is another famous example. He wrote 14 sonatas for piano.

four movements first in sonata-allegro form.

[Daevren]

Then Scriabin is out...

Also a lot of other sonatas. About half of Beethovens sonatas aren't four movement. As we;l as Liszt Bm, almost all Medtner and I am sure alot of Prokofiev and Schubert too.

They don't make them like that anymore. I don't think many people have a reason to stick to the very classical structure of four movements; 'sonata-allegro, adagio-minuet , scherzo, rondo-finale'-like sonatas.

[Nightscape]

four movements first in sonata-allegro form.

Haydn's sonatas, and Mozart's sonatas are in three movements.  Many of the Beethoven sonatas aren't in four movements, and several don't even have a sonata-allegro form in them!  And Scarlatti's sonatas are quite different.

The term sonata originally just meant an instrumental piece as opposed to vocal one.  If that's the case, then thousands and thousands of "sonatas" have been written since Beethoven.

As for sonata-allegro form, all I can say is that a lot of composers felt it had became a cliche and wanted to explore other equally valid paths.  You hardly ever hear of people composing baroque dance suites nowadays, but who's complaining!  The forms of today's composers are really just as inventive and original as those of the past.

[BoliverAllmon]

Haydn's sonatas, and Mozart's sonatas are in three movements.  Many of the Beethoven sonatas aren't in four movements, and several don't even have a sonata-allegro form in them!  And Scarlatti's sonatas are quite different.

The term sonata originally just meant an instrumental piece as opposed to vocal one.  If that's the case, then thousands and thousands of "sonatas" have been written since Beethoven.

As for sonata-allegro form, all I can say is that a lot of composers felt it had became a cliche and wanted to explore other equally valid paths.  You hardly ever hear of people composing baroque dance suites nowadays, but who's complaining!  The forms of today's composers are really just as inventive and original as those of the past.

I don't know where my head was, I was talking about three movement sonata-allegro form. I agree that the forms of today are just as inventive and original. I have no problem with what they are writing. I am just curious if you think that the traditional sonata structure is gone forever?