Is a Kawai grand, circa 1970 worth the risk?

[wunderlich]

I am shopping around for a grand piano for a music studio, trying to find a substantial instrument but of course up against serious budget constraints.

I have two used instruments that I am considering, a Kawai 650, 6'8", manufactured around 1970, and a Baldwin L3, 6''3", manufactured around 1990.

I realize that this is comparing apples to oranges, but I would really like to hear some thoughts from individuals who do not have a vested interest in my purchase. I have not been able to discover very much about what was going on at Kawai in 1970, nor how that compares to the  quality of Baldwin's circa 1990.

The Baldwin is more expensive (naturally). The Kawai is a bargain that needs some repair. I just don't know if a 1970 vintage Kawai is a reliable instrument.

I should mention that questions regarding the differences in action and timbre are moot. This instrument will be used by several instructors and I do not expect I'll find an instrument suitable for everyone's personal preferences.

I need a substantial instrument that is going to be reliable and worth keeping in top condition. I expect that is true of the Baldwin, but I am concerned about the Kawai.

Any thoughts?

[iumonito]

You owe it to yourself to send your question to Ron Overs.  Google him and you will find him in Australia in one second.  I would recommend the Kawai.  If I have my facts right, he will too, but now I am curious.

If you are getting the Kawai for dirt cheap there is much rebuilding (and redesigning, mostly the scale and hitch pin location) you may be able to do.  The results may turn out extraordinary for an under $20K piano.

[jolly]

In used pianos, condition is king.

Even a mediocre instrument, kept in good repair, is worth more than a better instrument that's been rode hard, and put up wet.....

[FogVilleLad]

iomonito,

Wunder's post and your reply re the possible price of an Overs-type rebuild on the Kawai really got my attention.

I saw the Overs info on his site, but thought that this was out of reach for me. The Baldwin L has begun to be an interest, because---I think---it was designed as a relatively low tension, large dynamic range instrument that would be fine as an at-home piano.

Would you mind saying why you recommended the Kawai?

DavidH

[iumonito]

Check the facts, because (other than the fact that I like how well voiced Kawais sound) what I will describe next is not something I know first hand, but rather I am repeating hearsay:

The biggie is that the Kawai has a better enharmonicity and more uniform tension distribution, having a lesser tension discrepancy between the low-tension lowest note before the passaggio (where the cross-stringing begins, which in a Baldwin is around F21, but in the Kawai is higher - like C28 or around there) and the high-tension highest of the cross-strung notes (E20 for Baldwin, about B27 for Kawai).

This discrepancy, arguably, accounts for the nasty change in color that (at least in my mind) distinguishes the bass in any Baldwin smaller than an SF 10.  I used to describe it as wowowow (I am not a tuner, but I am sure what I was hearing was some nasty beats).  Voicing can help with this some, but at least from my point of view it seems like a design flaw.

Also, I may be mistaken, but I think Kawai was using maple instead of luan mahogany in their rims in the early 70's.  Does anyone know for sure?  Also, I personally do not object to having non-wood part in the action (some close friends of mine think I am crazy on that one); I believe your 70's Kawai has ABS action parts already, although you may need to check that with someone who knows.  if you are not replacing the action, chances are the ABS parts are in better shape than their wood equivalents in the Baldwin.

I should give you a caveat:  for the longest time I thought Kawais were made in Korea.  They are, of course, a Japanese maker, so that should give you a measure of how reliable my information is.

Lastly, I think you can do some serious rebuilding in the US with $20K.  I don't think you can get a Kawai-Overs for that price, but (hey) that up to him!

Good luck.

[FogVilleLad]

Iumonito,

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Thank you.

In a recent PM, Don Maninno, Kawai's Director of Technical Education, said that Overs probably misidentified that rim as being oak, and that it was most likely Callophylum, which has the texture and grain type of very hard oak, but a mahogany color. He also said that  Kawai occasionally uses matoa or maple, depending on available supplies, but always keeps to a certain hardness / density spec---which he did not have the info to specify.

Thanks again,

DavidH