Chopin runs... how to count them?

[fuel925]

As you know, in a lot of Chopin's pieces he uses runs which contain weird time values, like triplets, 5 notes in the time of 4, 7 notes in the time of 6 etc. Often the runs contain a mixture of all of these. I have trouble working out how these runs are actually supposed to sound, and how it's played in relation to the bass. Does anyone have any advice and tips on how to count these runs, and get notes in the melody to be in time with the notes in the bass?

[Derek]

I find for this sort of thing counting is nearly impossible, it has to be worked out intuitively. I have consciously taught myself to be able to use 3 against 2, 3 against 4 and 4 against 5,  but this isn't really neccessary. Try practicing hands seperately and "squish" the notes of those runs over the accompaniment. You'll get it eventually.  I don't believe Chopin intends those parts to be played metronomically, either.

I believe Chopin himself insisted on precision in the left hand but a freer right hand...so perhaps try practicing the left hand in those passages seperately, then squishing the right hand notes in.

[quantum]

With really complex polyrhythmic patterns, it is much easier to "squish" the notes together, as Derek mentioned. Take a fixed unit of time, 1 or 2 beats (or what ever is relevent to the piece) and try to fit all the said notes in that unit of time.  I find it easier if I play really fast first to guage the amount of compression, the gradully slow it down and refine the rhythms.

Sometimes really big note groupings can be broken down into prime numbers.  Eg: 5 can become 2 + 3 or 3 + 2, etc. 

Don't worry if really long runs are asymetrical or lopsided with more notes being squished in one beat than another, feel free to use rubato and be musical.  Eg: Op 27/2 - the 48 note run; the "Cello" Etude. 

[pseudopianist]

With really complex polyrhythmic patterns, it is much easier to "squish" the notes together, as Derek mentioned. Take a fixed unit of time, 1 or 2 beats (or what ever is relevent to the piece) and try to fit all the said notes in that unit of time.  I find it easier if I play really fast first to guage the amount of compression, the gradully slow it down and refine the rhythms.

Sometimes really big note groupings can be broken down into prime numbers.  Eg: 5 can become 2 + 3 or 3 + 2, etc. 

Don't worry if really long runs are asymetrical or lopsided with more notes being squished in one beat than another, feel free to use rubato and be musical.  Eg: Op 27/2 - the 48 note run; the "Cello" Etude. 

Op27/2? Is that the cello etude? Isn't it 25/7?

Most of the time I don't think it is that important to be exact, just the notes flow, they shouldn't be played that strict (if you ask me) At least not if they are notated in small notes.

[daan]

Just listen some CD's.

[i_m_robot]

As you know, in a lot of Chopin's pieces he uses runs which contain weird time values, like triplets, 5 notes in the time of 4, 7 notes in the time of 6 etc. Often the runs contain a mixture of all of these. I have trouble working out how these runs are actually supposed to sound, and how it's played in relation to the bass. Does anyone have any advice and tips on how to count these runs, and get notes in the melody to be in time with the notes in the bass?

they're not suppose to sound like anything

you can play the right hand how you want

the laft needs to stay in tempo

[Rach3]

Practice two hands together, while thinking about the LH in strict rhythm; then while thinking about RH. It works for me.

[llamaman]

Slow and steady is the key to mastering these. Just like Debussy's First Arabesque. For most of the piece, the left hand is playing eighth notes (a.k.a. quavers. Mmm...quavers), and the right hand is playing triplets.