some important questions!

[desegel]

Hello. I am 16 yrs old and i've played for about 8 years.
i'm not a very good pianist but im trying to improve.
i currently play: chopin nocturnes (eb maj, c# minor)
some waltzes of chopin (g# minor, and a minor)
dream of love, lizst
and ive finished the first movement of moonlight sonata a yr and a half ago.

anyway, my questions are:

1. in many pieces i cant get to 100 percent perfection.
when i work on a part that i have mistakes in,  a part which i have played perfectly
before is now full of mistakes - and so on.
what i should do to avoid this from happening?

2. how you suggest me to practice? (i practice alot of time but maybe the way i practice is wrong)

3. when i finish learning a piece, a month or a few weeks later, if i try to play them
again -  i have alot of mistakes too, and i have to spend alot of time to play it perfectly again.
any solutions?

Thanks!!!

[jeremyjchilds]

meaningful practice must be like paying your dues...if your goal is 100% accuracy, if you are learing the song just to fool around, then forget what i am about to say

THe old 75-25 rule is a good "principe" when looking to perfect a song in all ways. 75% of practice should be at 25% of the performance tempo.

Little "hiccup" mistakes are a result of not "paying your dues" slowly, slow practice reinforces your cogniscent memory of the song, not just muscle memory. I would guess that the reason you lack consistency is that your easily won muscle memory cannot stand the test of time.

Learn Hands Seperately. no faster than half tempo. be able to play absolutely perfectly H.S. (more difficult than usually thought) with the metronome. THen try H.T. Remember, our goal is not to slowly drive the speed up with the metronome, but to always play at a comfortable, pace that allows for a thorough re-reading each time. Playing too fast leads to tension, and tension is the enemy. Being able to play the song absolutely perfectly at half speed usually means that you are not too far off!!!

Good luck

[alzado]

Everyone is a little different, I suppose.

Perhaps I am like most people, but I don't know that.

When I have been practicing a piece quite a bit -- suppose it is assigned for my next lesson -- I get pretty accurate.

If I want to go back six months and dust off something I passed with my teacher much earlier, it is rusty and I have to warm it up.   My first playing of it will have quite a few mistakes.

If I want to play something for guests in my home, or whatever, I am sure to practice the pieces I intend to play on the afternoon before I expect to play them.

I don't know if this helps or not.  I am not sure perfect accuracy is everyone's goal. 

When I am playing fast, a common mistake of mine may be to miss one or two keys of a chord.  It's an omission.  And a mistake.  But it would be hard to detect by a listener.  Ditto for minor lapses in timing -- say a 3 against 4 being a little off.

Not to forgive this sort of thing, I suppose.  But I am not going to lose sleep over it.

Good luck with your endeavors--

[bernhard]

Read Chang’s book :

https://members.aol.com/cc88m/PianoBook.html

And have a look here :

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1825.msg13858.html#msg13858
(Accommodating practice times – 10 minute sessions – some mention on mental practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1844.msg13949.html#msg13949
(Overpractising – stopping at the last perfect rendition).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1651.msg14344.html#msg14344
(How to gain hand independence – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1894.msg14707.html#msg14707
(mental practice – Glenn Gould interview -

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2053.msg16886.html#msg16886
(How should an adult beginner practice? Chang and practice spot)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2061.msg17178.html#msg17178
(how to deal with boredom)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2082.msg17230.html#msg17230
(how to concentrate).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2097.msg17480.html#msg17480
(imitating pianists)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2075.msg17593.html#msg17593
(silent practice and its advantages – Good post by faulty damper about unenthusiastic parents)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2173.msg18976.html#msg18976
(dropping notes by comparing it with patting head/rubbing tummy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2241.msg19043.html#msg19043
(short attention span)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2298.msg19672.html#msg19672
(Practice environment – the Virgil Clavier)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2355.msg20277.html#msg20277
(common mistakes made by students)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2265.msg20306.html#msg20306
(How much practice a day? – two zen stories).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2368.msg20470.html#msg20470
(Virgil clavier & silent practice – Ted gives some good information. – how Arrau used one)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – the genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas - why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2411.msg21202.html#msg21202
(Alkan op. 39 no. 4 – outlining as the best strategy to deal with this piece).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2449.msg21204.html#msg21204
(repeated note-groups as a way to tackle Czerny op. 740 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2458.msg21365.html#msg21365
(Mental practice – tips for fingering)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2485.msg21499.html#msg21499
(How to keep a piece in the repertory – learn/forget/relearn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2599.msg22431.html#msg22431
(How long does it all take? – self-taught students - the cake analogy - criticism of ABRSM for expecting people to reach grade 8 in 10 years - learning is not gradual  comparison with reading - different ways of learning - how to learn to drive a car -   the dispersive method of teaching - 15 list to “disperse” learning).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2615.msg22522.html#msg22522
(Piece analysis – delay going to the piano and spend most time analysing – Comparison with the process of film making)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2611.msg22637.html#msg22637
(Slow practice – Glenn Gould’s finger tapping)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2720.msg23353.html#msg23353
(How to practice aim and accuracy – looking at the LH and giving verbal instructions to the RH – Full discussion on left and right brain).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2802.msg24467.html#msg24467
(When to join hands)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2864.msg25252.html#msg25252
(how everyone in the forum practises – the scientific method to decide what practice routine is good and which is not. Comments on Chang book)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2916.msg25572.html#msg25572
(Bad habits when playing/practising)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3002.msg26246.html#msg26246
(When to use the metronome)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3039.msg26525.html#msg26525
(how big are your hands, and does it matter?  7 x 20 minutes – exercise/activities to strengthen the playing apparatus – ways to deal with wide chords – the myth that Richter was self-taught – 3 stages of learning – Example: Chopin militaire Polonaise - scientific principles for testing practice methods – Example: Prelude in F#m from WTC1 – when to join hands and why HS – practice is improvement – the principle of “easy” – Example: Chopin’s ballade no. 4 – repeated groups)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3064.msg26866.html#msg26866
(Repeated note-groups applied to Gottschalk)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg27140.html#msg27140
(Hands together: when and how – dropping notes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3371.msg30141.html#msg30141
(zoom-zoom – all about speed playing)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3625.msg32673.html#msg32673
(PPI –  comparison with body building – brief mention of movement and intellectual centre – comparison with babies walking and coma patients- muscle tension and nerve inhibition – how to investigate and test practice ideas – How to teach by using progressively difficult repertory)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3833.msg34775.html#msg34775
(analysing pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3778.msg35061.html#msg35061
(Speed: discussion about gradually speeding up with a metronome or using Chang’s approach)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4105.msg37603.html#msg37603
(Does age and practice time matter? –  Summaries of the 7 x 20 approach – averages and standard deviations are given for the several numbers – need for a practice diary – how to deal with mastering something and forgetting it next day – what exactly is mastery – the 3 stages of mastery)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4123.msg37829.html#msg37829
(How to investigate the best movement pattern: Example Scarlatti sonata K70 – How to work out the best fingering. Example: CPE Bach Allegro in A – Slow x slow motion practice – HS x HT – practising for only 5 – 10 minutes)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4168.msg38569.html#msg38569
(Keeping pieces polished – learn/forget/relearn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4244.msg39203.html#msg39203
(How long to practice – having an aim, achieving it and moving on – How to define aim)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4322.msg40260.html#msg40260
(mental practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4429.msg41217.html#msg41217
(differences between practice and performance)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php?topic=5995.msg58928#msg58928
(when to work on expression - change focus every 2 minutes – comparison with plate spinning)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3085.msg44855.html#msg44855
(Hands together – dropping notes – when to learn HT and when to learn HS)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4954.msg46883.html#msg46883
(mental practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4851.msg47341.html#msg47341
(Practising for speed – Example: Beethoven Op. 49 no. 2)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5083.msg48306.html#msg48306
(More questions on fast speed practice – the eldorado analogy - collection of links)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5453.msg53807.html#msg53807
(3 most important practice tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5555.msg53811.html#msg53811
(how long do you practice? It depends on what is meant by practice)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5572.msg53918.html#msg53918
(how to deal with slips - concentrate on the music, not on the score – analogy with actors and lines on a script)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5701.msg55639.html#msg55639
(3 principles of super efficient/fast learning)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5756.msg56146.html#msg56146
(Talent – Attention to detail – example of scale in clusters and how the overlooked aim is to prepare fingers.)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7810.msg80415.html#msg80415
(How to organise the breaking down of a piece over several days. Examples: CPE Bach Fantasia, Blow Sarabande, Chopin Cantabile; Chopin Scherzo no. 2)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7872.msg79188.html#msg79188
(How to plan your work for the next five years)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7664.msg77057.html#msg77057
(How to break a piece in sessions – Example: Invention no. 1).

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9540.msg96795.html#msg96795
(learning a piece back to front)

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9285.msg94312.html#msg94312
(outlining: example – with score – Chopin etude op. 25 no. 1)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

dear lord!

[alzado]

I suspect there are different kinds of people.

Remember Robert Browning's poem about the "flawless painter."   

Perhaps you and I are not the sort who are perfectionists. 

I get bored with staying on a piece too long, and keep moving on. 

I am more interested in understanding what I think the piece is trying to achieve, and trying to capture that in my playing.

Being entirely mistake-free would be nice, but I am not that "faultless painter" of Browning's poem. 

However, I am just a retired person with no performances, no tests, no judging.  You may not have the luxury of indulging in my kind of "benign neglect" as a playing philosophy.

This "polish unto perfection" reminds me of the olympic gymnasts.  The level of quality is so high, and the bar is so high, and the judging is so "fussy" that if a competitor lands a jump with one foot a half-inch out of line, it may be enough to dash her chances.  If you have seen some of these olympics events, you may have seen situations where the runner-up has "just" 9.8 out of 10 whereas the winner has attained 9.9 out of 10.

It reaches a point where it is just slightly "mad."  I think the quest for perfection in a recital piece could reach a point where it borders on the same thing.