pain in WRISTS and arms when....

[seskanda]

I play octaves in my left hand, don't know what the name of the technique is. For example, in the piece i'm playing, "Entry of the Gladiators" by Julius Fucik, there is a section where eight-note octave figures appear in the LH w/chords in the RH. I had similar problems with Mozart's Rondo alla Turca and its octaves in the RH, but i was to able play the piece in its entirety. In fact, the pain in my arms and ESPECIALLY wrist began with i started to play that piece.

BTW, I have scoliosis and kyphosis. Both of these problems probably contributed to my unaligned pelvis and feet. Yes, one of my feet or leg is disproportional, unfortunately i'm not sure which one, but one of them is either longer or shorter than the other. This is a result of scoliosis and/or kyphosis, which i believe effect the body down to the CELLULAR level!!! Typically, I suffer from immense pain in my lower back (near pelvis), upper back, and throughout my whole neck.

However, it seems ONLY when i play octaves, like the ones in Fucik, that pain in my wrists occur.  Even while I'm typing/ clicking on the computer i don't have as MUCH pain as when I play that piece, in general.  Some pointers would be very helpful and greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

[pianodump]

Hi seskanda,

will it because you tensed up the muscles in your Left arm too much?  is the pain still there when you try to play the octaves SLOWLY? 

[xvimbi]

Like pianodump suggested, it's tension. Well, 99.9% of all problems in pianists are due to tension.

Can you comfortably reach an octave, or do you have to stretch? Stretching will always cause tension, which over time will lead to problems, such as the ones you described.

Do you lock your fingers in place before you play the octaves? This also causes tension with the same result. If so, relax in between octaves and fix your wrist and fingers only at the last moment, practically when the fingertips are already on the keys.

I'm with pianodump. Play the octaves very slowly at first and make sure your are as relaxed as possible. If you feel tension anywhere, work on it to make it disappear. You can then slowly speed up, but never get so fast that tension would accumulate again. Make use of gravity as much as you can (no muscle action -> no tension). The movements for playing octaves at fast speeds are like those for octaves playing at slow speeds, so there won't be any issues related to having to change movement patterns with speed.

Good luck!

[jeremyjchilds]

I had the same problem...(I am currently practicing all of my octave scales for exams)
I simply had to take my time and play octave for no more than 30 seconds at a time. then taking a  30 second break. You will take twice as long to practice, but if you follow the previous advice about tension, and do this too, your pain should be slowly getting better.

[BoliverAllmon]

and to think that Liszt worked on octaves for three hours at times. true relaxation.

[seskanda]

is the pain still there when you try to play the octaves SLOWLY? 

There is still pain when I play them slowly, but it is much less than when i play at tempo.

Like pianodump suggested, it's tension. Well, 99.9% of all problems in pianists are due to tension.

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "tension"?  If I understand correctly tension means stiffness or numbness MAINLY caused by stretching the hands, arms, and fingers, etc. Coincidentally, that is precisely the type of pain i am feeling. Or does the term have more specifc meanings peculiar to piano pedagogy?

Can you comfortably reach an octave, or do you have to stretch? Stretching will always cause tension, which over time will lead to problems, such as the ones you described.

Thankfully, I have NO problems reaching octaves and ONLY stretch to reach ninths or tenths, in fact, I can easily play the chromatic scale in double octaves to two octaves and sometimes even up to three!!! Hmm...this really questions the value of technical exercises. Anyways, it seems the tension most likely stems from scoliosis/kyphosis, right? 

Do you lock your fingers in place before you play the octaves? This also causes tension with the same result. If so, relax in between octaves and fix your wrist and fingers only at the last moment, practically when the fingertips are already on the keys.

NOT sure, but i may be doing this, if you mean that I tightly and firmly strike the octaves then i do, but i know of no other way to play octaves. I already tried to play them more loosely, but the pain would not go away. Also, could you explain what you mean by fixing the wrist and fingers.

If you feel tension anywhere, work on it to make it disappear. You can then slowly speed up, but never get so fast that tension would accumulate again. Make use of gravity as much as you can (no muscle action -> no tension).

How, exactly, am i supposed to make the tension "disappear" as you state. What is this you speak of about the use of gravity; some clarification would be great. Isn't it the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful? HOW is it possible to play piano, or anything, WITHOUT using your muscles? 


Thanks for the replies!

[seskanda]

Uh...I hope by 'thanks for the replies' i didn't inadvertantly close this thread. Is anybody gonna answer anytime soon?

[pianonut]

interesting you brought up scoliosis and whatever the other one was.  sorry about the pain!  once you have your posture in as good of order as you can muster (checking height of bench to keyboard and making sure it's comfy) you also need to get up and walk around (feeling how you arms naturally fall at your sides - and the way your wrists feel when they are relaxed).  if you then go to the piano and start practicing octaves that would not be good.  it's like going to run a race and starting with a sprint.  some people like to do this, but not me.  i would take one of your 'in the hands' pieces that  doesn't require a lot of technique.  warm up for 20 minutes.  then, tackle the octaves for a bit, play something else, come back to the octaves, play something else, come back to the octaves.   end with something light and fast, but not octaves.  next day - no octaves at all.  possibly alternate days.  you won't lose octaves like you would memory. it's a technique, but it is hard on the wrists, imo.

wouldn't go for sound with octaves as much as lightness and feeling a sort of weight at the end of the thumb and pinky (like you have weights inside the tips - and they drop without much effort).  don't concentrate on the 'up' side - but more holding arm high enough to just let your fingers keep dropping as you move your arm up the keyboard. minimal distance from keys.  the constant bending back and forth too much is probably what's causing the pain.

[xvimbi]

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "tension"?  If I understand correctly tension means stiffness or numbness MAINLY caused by stretching the hands, arms, and fingers, etc. Coincidentally, that is precisely the type of pain i am feeling. Or does the term have more specifc meanings peculiar to piano pedagogy?

I use the term tension in a physiological way: tension means that some muscle is contracted. It's not necessarily bad. It can become bad if there is unnecessary tension or when two muscles work against each other (co-contraction). So, don't assume that any tension is bad, although I agree that it may come over this way.

Thankfully, I have NO problems reaching octaves and ONLY stretch to reach ninths or tenths, in fact, I can easily play the chromatic scale in double octaves to two octaves and sometimes even up to three!!! Hmm...this really questions the value of technical exercises. Anyways, it seems the tension most likely stems from scoliosis/kyphosis, right?

I don't know anything about that, but I would still first assume that you are doing something wrong with your hands. Look at all the other threads about octave playing/wrist pain. In a nutshell, you must make sure that your hand is relaxed at all times between octaves and that you are fixing your fingers at the last moment, i.e. when the tips touch the keys. as soon as you hit the keybed, relax your hand immediately. It is a wasted effort to have "hand muscles' engaged while in the air or in the keybed. Also, pain in the forearm often comes from a stiff wrist, because in order to hold the wrist rigid, a lot of muscles have to be engaged at the same tim. There is a lot of co-contraction, which is "Enemy No. 1". Keep a flexible wrist at all times except for when you hit the keys.

NOT sure, but i may be doing this, if you mean that I tightly and firmly strike the octaves then i do, but i know of no other way to play octaves. I already tried to play them more loosely, but the pain would not go away. Also, could you explain what you mean by fixing the wrist and fingers.

see above

How, exactly, am i supposed to make the tension "disappear" as you state. What is this you speak of about the use of gravity; some clarification would be great. Isn't it the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful? HOW is it possible to play piano, or anything, WITHOUT using your muscles?

Don't be silly. The idea is to use the right amount of tension, but not more. Any more tension than necessary is potentially harmful. No, it is not the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful, but mostly the muscles. If you are having problems in the tendons/joints/ligaments, you are in deeper trouble, so let's hope it's just your muscles.

One can make tension disappear by two things: first convince yourself that you have unecessary tension (e.g. in the neck, forearm, wherever). You need to pay a lot of attention to that, because it is not easy to detect tension if you don't have experience, yet any physiotherapist just needs to look at people to tell right away where there is tension. Second, focus on the tensed muscles and literally tell them to release the tension. When you realize you are clenching your jaws, it is easy to release those muscles, with other muscles it might be a bit harder, because the result is not that dramatic.

Do an experiment: press down the keys of a chord and keep the hand firmly in the keybed. There will be a lot of tension in the hand and arm. Now, consciously, slowly start to release muscles. at first as much as you can without the keys coming up. find the amount of tension necessary for the keys to stay down, but not more. Then release some more, until the keys themselves push your fingers up. This is just an exercise to train your awareness of what is going on in the body.

Finally, if you are in pain, you need to stop playing. Even if all of a sudden you do the right movements, you will not cure the pain right away. You may in fact aggravate the condition. Let the injury heal completely before you start retraining yourself. In the meantime, read the book "What every pianist needs to know about the body" by Thomas Mark.

Good luck! and don't get any more impatient and frustrated than you already are. Relax

[pianonut]

dear xvimbi,

excellent advice, esp. about relaxing the wrist and looking for unnecessary tension in the neck and other places.

i've wondered if people who know they have scoliosis would do well to find a back brace (to hold shouders back and in place).  you can find the back braces in places like home depot (for heavy lifting) and some posture stuff at chiropractos offices or online.  on tv, they sometimes show body trimmers, too, and i've wondered if that wouldn't help.  you have the bones set into place with the help of the elastic and might make sitting less tiring for some.

[xvimbi]

Don't be silly. The idea is to use the right amount of tension, but not more. Any more tension than necessary is potentially harmful. No, it is not the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful, but mostly the muscles. If you are having problems in the tendons/joints/ligaments, you are in deeper trouble, so let's hope it's just your muscles.

Just thinking about this some more: What I mean to say is that, yes, you may feel pain in joints and tendons, but this caused by wrong use of the muscles or wrong movement patterns. As soon as you fix your movement patterns and muscle usage, the pain should slowly go away, unless there is already more serious or even permanent damage in the tendons/ligaments/joints.

One thing that I discussed in another thread about octave playing is the position of the hand with respect to the wrist and forearm. The wrist should be in line with the forearm, so no thumb-orientation, but little-finger orientation instead. It should also not be angled downwards too much.

Gotta run!

Good luck!

[c18cont]

Perhaps,

If this thread goes a bit more....we might get some solid info on the distance from the front of the keyboard, to the seat, or the body center, or however it may be best to think of it (In other words the horizontal plane...)..as I see no figures of measure in my looking around....

I always just presented myself at a, to me, comfortable seat, but I suspect there may be better ways to adjust this distance..and it might have a lot to do with stress for anyone with a physically  limiting  factor...(?)

John

[seskanda]

I use the term tension in a physiological way: tension means that some muscle is contracted. It's not necessarily bad. It can become bad if there is unnecessary tension or when two muscles work against each other (co-contraction). So, don't assume that any tension is bad, although I agree that it may come over this way.

Alright then, does tension occur ONLY in the muscles, or can ANY part of the body feel tension?

I don't know anything about that, but I would still first assume that you are doing something wrong with your hands. Look at all the other threads about octave playing/wrist pain. In a nutshell, you must make sure that your hand is relaxed at all times between octaves and that you are fixing your fingers at the last moment, i.e. when the tips touch the keys. as soon as you hit the keybed, relax your hand immediately. It is a wasted effort to have "hand muscles' engaged while in the air or in the keybed. Also, pain in the forearm often comes from a stiff wrist, because in order to hold the wrist rigid, a lot of muscles have to be engaged at the same tim. There is a lot of co-contraction, which is "Enemy No. 1". Keep a flexible wrist at all times except for when you hit the keys.

I truly believe that scoliosis and/or kyphosis is the culprit here. Anyways, would somebody mind posting links to the MANY threads about octave playing/wrist pain? I've found some of them, but this is q

see above

Don't be silly. The idea is to use the right amount of tension, but not more. Any more tension than necessary is potentially harmful. No, it is not the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful, but mostly the muscles. If you are having problems in the tendons/joints/ligaments, you are in deeper trouble, so let's hope it's just your muscles.

One can make tension disappear by two things: first convince yourself that you have unecessary tension (e.g. in the neck, forearm, wherever). You need to pay a lot of attention to that, because it is not easy to detect tension if you don't have experience, yet any physiotherapist just needs to look at people to tell right away where there is tension. Second, focus on the tensed muscles and literally tell them to release the tension. When you realize you are clenching your jaws, it is easy to release those muscles, with other muscles it might be a bit harder, because the result is not that dramatic.

Do an experiment: press down the keys of a chord and keep the hand firmly in the keybed. There will be a lot of tension in the hand and arm. Now, consciously, slowly start to release muscles. at first as much as you can without the keys coming up. find the amount of tension necessary for the keys to stay down, but not more. Then release some more, until the keys themselves push your fingers up. This is just an exercise to train your awareness of what is going on in the body.

Finally, if you are in pain, you need to stop playing. Even if all of a sudden you do the right movements, you will not cure the pain right away. You may in fact aggravate the condition. Let the injury heal completely before you start retraining yourself. In the meantime, read the book "What every pianist needs to know about the body" by Thomas Mark.

Good luck! and don't get any more impatient and frustrated than you already are. Relax

[seskanda]

Eck! sorry about that double post, AGAIN. Someone should really put in a feature to delete mistakenly posted threads.

I use the term tension in a physiological way: tension means that some muscle is contracted. It's not necessarily bad. It can become bad if there is unnecessary tension or when two muscles work against each other (co-contraction). So, don't assume that any tension is bad, although I agree that it may come over this way.

Alright then, does tension occur ONLY in the muscles, or can ANY part of the body feel tension?

I don't know anything about that, but I would still first assume that you are doing something wrong with your hands. Look at all the other threads about octave playing/wrist pain. In a nutshell, you must make sure that your hand is relaxed at all times between octaves and that you are fixing your fingers at the last moment, i.e. when the tips touch the keys. as soon as you hit the keybed, relax your hand immediately. It is a wasted effort to have "hand muscles' engaged while in the air or in the keybed. Also, pain in the forearm often comes from a stiff wrist, because in order to hold the wrist rigid, a lot of muscles have to be engaged at the same tim. There is a lot of co-contraction, which is "Enemy No. 1". Keep a flexible wrist at all times except for when you hit the keys.

I truly believe that scoliosis and/or kyphosis is the culprit here. Anyways, would somebody mind posting links to the MANY threads about octave playing/wrist pain; in case, I don't ask questions that might have been answered in those other threads.  I've found some of them, but this is quite a massive forum and i don't think i've got the patience and especially TIME to search through 20-30+ pages of material to find them. Besides, I'm sure this'll greatly aid not just me, but anyone suffering from the same thing i am. I'd prefer it if ONLY threads where xvimbi responded are posted, but i guess it'd be better if all the useful ones were posted here.

The idea is to use the right amount of tension, but not more. Any more tension than necessary is potentially harmful. No, it is not the ligaments, joints, and tendons that become painful, but mostly the muscles. If you are having problems in the tendons/joints/ligaments, you are in deeper trouble, so let's hope it's just your muscles.

Currently, I haven't been able to try your suggestions about eliminating 'unnecessary' tension. BTW, when would you deem tension to be unnecessary? Would it be the moment you feel pain? Just what kind of trouble do you think i'm in if i've got pain in my tendons/joints/ligaments? Personally, I think i have tendonitis, as it is accompanied by pain in the arms, elbows, (what SEEMS to be the bones), shoulders and shoulder blades. While were posting threads about wrist/octave playing pain, again, it would be extremely helpful if someone could post links to threads about tendonitis from this forum.

Just thinking about this some more: What I mean to say is that, yes, you may feel pain in joints and tendons, but this caused by wrong use of the muscles or wrong movement patterns. As soon as you fix your movement patterns and muscle usage, the pain should slowly go away, unless there is already more serious or even permanent damage in the tendons/ligaments/joints.

Ah! Now, i gotcha! That's what I suspected in the first place that pain in the tendons/joints/ligaments IS normal, and a result of what you stated, and also, unfortunately, I believe it is compounded by scoliosis and kyphosis. I will try and implement all of your other excellent advice, ASAP!

Perhaps,

If this thread goes a bit more....we might get some solid info on the distance from the front of the keyboard, to the seat, or the body center, or however it may be best to think of it (In other words the horizontal plane...)..

Yes, it would very helpful to finally learn the most correct and efficient posture while playing the piano. I must admit, at first, I always thought this aspect was trivial, to say the least. Now, as the pain surfaces, I think it could also be aggravated by wrong posture. For starters, one thing i've noticed that helps with posture and particularly pain, is simply placing your feet straight on the ground. Of course, I guess that goes with practically anywhere you sit down, though.

[c18cont]

Following the ideas of reducing tension,

And reducing the actual practice time I do per day, I am over my wrist and hand problems it would seem....

At my age (66 soon...), I was going at it too hard, after making a decision to regain some of my skill...I played O.K. and had very good form with little tension in the past...I had just become excited and pushed too hard, at 3 hours and more a day...(two shifts...). I am now more near some one to two hours, some in the morning, and some in the evening...Perhaps as I gain strength back, I may go a bit longer in the future....

It's working for me!

Regards to the Group...John

[Jacey1973]

I play octaves in my left hand, don't know what the name of the technique is. For example, in the piece i'm playing, "Entry of the Gladiators" by Julius Fucik...

What an unfortunate name...

[pianonut]

he probably has to remind people that it's foo-cheek.

[xvimbi]

Eck! sorry about that double post, AGAIN. Someone should really put in a feature to delete mistakenly posted threads.

Alright then, does tension occur ONLY in the muscles, or can ANY part of the body feel tension?

That's probably semantics. First and foremost, it is the muscles that create tension, specifically, muscle contraction equals muscle tension. Now, this puts force on tendons, joints and ligaments. There are kinaestetic sensors in these areas, so as a consequence, you will get feedback from your joints about what your muscles are doing.

I truly believe that scoliosis and/or kyphosis is the culprit here. Anyways, would somebody mind posting links to the MANY threads about octave playing/wrist pain; in case, I don't ask questions that might have been answered in those other threads.  I've found some of them, but this is quite a massive forum and i don't think i've got the patience and especially TIME to search through 20-30+ pages of material to find them. Besides, I'm sure this'll greatly aid not just me, but anyone suffering from the same thing i am. I'd prefer it if ONLY threads where xvimbi responded are posted, but i guess it'd be better if all the useful ones were posted here.

Practically all of those threads have contributions from more than just myself (particularly by Bernhard). Also, the search function allows ypou to restrict hits to certain members, reducing the 20-30 pages to 1 or 2.

Currently, I haven't been able to try your suggestions about eliminating 'unnecessary' tension. BTW, when would you deem tension to be unnecessary? Would it be the moment you feel pain?

I would define unnecessary tension as any tension that is in addition to the amount necessary to get a job done. Pain has nothing to do with this, only as the most extreme result of unnecessary tension. Example: when you play a chord and dwell in the keybed while depressing the pedal, you are wasting a lot of energy and you are creating a lot of tension throughout the body without any result. Minimizing this type of "unnecessary" tension will help you avoid injury.

Just what kind of trouble do you think i'm in if i've got pain in my tendons/joints/ligaments? Personally, I think i have tendonitis, as it is accompanied by pain in the arms, elbows, (what SEEMS to be the bones), shoulders and shoulder blades. While were posting threads about wrist/octave playing pain, again, it would be extremely helpful if someone could post links to threads about tendonitis from this forum.

Tendonitis is a result of long-term misuse of the body. It is not something that happens because of one wrong movement, but because of some bad habit (i.e. a bad movement pattern) happening hundreds or thousands of times. Retraining is really the only cure for this (provided there is not already permanemt damage).

The symptoms you describe could be entirely caused by musculoskeletal aspects, not necessarily tendonitis. It really looks to me that you should have yourself thoroughly checked out by an orthopedic surgeon specializing in hand/arm.

Ah! Now, i gotcha! That's what I suspected in the first place that pain in the tendons/joints/ligaments IS normal, and a result of what you stated, and also, unfortunately, I believe it is compounded by scoliosis and kyphosis. I will try and implement all of your other excellent advice, ASAP!

Careful with the Gotcha! I was deliberately separating the two aspects, because pain in joints and tendons is most often caused by misuse of the muscles. It would be a mistake to try to "fix" your joint issues by treating the joints (for example with ice, cortison, etc.) and not figure out what the real reason is and treating those.

Yes, it would very helpful to finally learn the most correct and efficient posture while playing the piano. I must admit, at first, I always thought this aspect was trivial, to say the least. Now, as the pain surfaces, I think it could also be aggravated by wrong posture. For starters, one thing i've noticed that helps with posture and particularly pain, is simply placing your feet straight on the ground. Of course, I guess that goes with practically anywhere you sit down, though.

As I have learned myself, anything associated with posture, or in general, proper use of the human body, is not trivial at all, but rather complex. It is however not really difficult to understand, as long as one is willing to look into it. You seem to be eager (now, that you are in pain - a bit too late if you ask me, but that is really when most people start looking into that, myself included), but you are committing a cardinal sin right from the start: you are asking for the "most correct and efficient posture while playing the piano". One must strive for proper posture in everything. There is no such thing as proper posture for playing the piano, but not for chopping onions. Use of the human body is governed by general principles that apply to any kind of movement, juggling, martial arts, cooking, computer work, etc. etc. So, it is really best to start working on a complete overhaul, rather than on an isolated activity. One cannot have good posture at the piano and bad posture away from it. Either one would feel wrong. Check out the book "What every pianist needs to know about the body" by Thomas Mark and www.pianomap.com, where some of it is explained. That should be a good start.