Opinions on the Hardest piano piece ever written

[enderw20]

Haha, if this forum allowed propping, I would totally prop Rob's post. Well done.

lostinidlewonder, just leave this forum if you have nothing constructive to say.

No way, if every one like him leaves then we we would actually have to talk about the topic instead of assinine posts.

[m]

I am not proving you wrong or me right, i am just highlighting what you are saying.

Lets see. You said. "NOT LONG AGO" so doesn't that mean recent? It certainly means not long ago doesn't it. 

You do not have to directly call me this to IMPLY it. You said, post recordings then we can talk, that is almost saying, you are too low to talk to until you PROVE yourself with recordings. In other words, everything I write should be ignored until I post a recording. This is turn is saying, don't listen to lostinidlewonder until he posts something because I certainly will not talk with him until he does so. So there is no use trying to avoid your harsh critique on me.

Your need for me to post a recording and all of your negative comments upon my critique on other people highlight this fact that you have some hate for people who might know something about your favorite topic too.

I am highlighting the fact that people go against what is written, as you did. That is fine, but I don't think its best, you can do it, go for it. Afterall I never said I am the way, I said this is what I think, take it or leave it. Those who have bad experience with critique as yourself react badly if someone says something you don't agree with, you just leave it as that, we are not trying to convince just share ideas. I didn't take a personal stance in this matter, however you seemed to think I was attacking you personally.

I can post more links proving you are dead wrong here again, why should I debunk you again? Surely the first time was enough when you said EVERYTHING I SAID WAS NEGATIVE. Why don't you stop suggesting you know someone when you really don't?
You need an English lesson if you don't think it means "I think".

Dear Lostinidlewonder,

I have to say, I am very much impressed with your vivid imagination, logic, and your conclusions. I can only envy your rare talent of picking things out of context and twist them at your convinience. The only another member here having comparable ability I can think of was Pianistimo--talking to either of you has the same feeling like talking to a wall.
Congratulations!--quite an accomplishment!

And yeah, as always you are right, and... just awsome!!!
Good luck with your endevaours!

Best wishes, M 

[lostinidlewonder]

Let me just note, I started getting flamed ONLY when I started posting about Christianity. So if you anti Christs are angry with me, why don't you message me personally, not try to act big and post rubbish in the public. Let me tell you I didn't start to tangent this thread, it was other people abusing me that did that.

If you guys actually read what I say, I am not accusing anyone of anything, I merely reflect what they say, so if you don't like it, maybe you should start thinking about what you say more carefully. I certainly won't let people assume rubbish about me and then think they are very clever. So for once you get someone telling you off and you don't like it, I am sure you all reacted like this when your parents told you off, if they actually did a good job and did so, otherwise it doesn't surprise me that so many of you behave so badly.

INTRODUCTION TO LOSTINIDLEWONDER RANT 101

You are so funny and amusing, that is all that what you said here is. You hardly have any evidence to back up what you are saying about me. Maybe I should quote the rubbish you have posted on piano forum? But why bother? I have learned that clearly pointing out peoples errors doesn't change much so I ask for evidence to support your comments? I would love to see how you react if someone abused you, you would probably rant too.

And yeah, as always you are right, and... just awsome!!!
Good luck with your endevaours!
Best wishes, M 

Thankyou for your polite words, it makes me feel a lot better about you now.  You realise that I haven't insulted anyone personally, but that many people just don't like a different voice, one that doesn't follow a pack. Do you think I'm sarcastic with my thanks to you? It is only as sarcastic as your quote.
   And if you read again what I said about your Rach I said I would have enjoyed listening to your rendition if I was sitting in the concert hall. How on earth can you think I am belittling all your hard work? That I give some critique should be appreciated, even if you disagree, it certainly doesn't mean your playing is bad. I did highlight that people treat critique differently, now that I know how you react to it I probably won't say anything again about your playing (to your delight I am sure, until we work out our problems )

No way, if every one like him leaves then we we would actually have to talk about the topic instead of assinine posts.

Also I am not here to be liked by anyone. Those who react badly to me do so on their own terms, I certainly haven't added anything to the broth. People are so careless in what they say, so when they find out that someone like me calls them up on it, they get all defensive. People should stop accusing and start talking about what they think more, then they won't step on feet, and they won't have to deal with me "annoying" them.

Also notice there has been ZERO response to my questions and assertions on what people say. That is because they cannot respond, they must realise their error because they have made zero attempt to clarify themselves. So they turn to abuse, I guess that is all they can do.

lostinidlewonder, just leave this forum if you have nothing constructive to say.

I assure you I have said a lot of constructive things and where many people have appreciated my professional opinions on piano study and playing over the 4 years being on piano street. I am sorry, but you guys here who have a problem with me, and the ones on the post on Christianity who also have problem with me, you are all a MINORITY. Are you all a handful of alpha males trying to mark their territory?

Dear Lostinidlewonder,
I am very much impressed with your vivid imagination, logic, and your conclusions. I can only envy your rare talent of picking things out of context and twist them at your convinience.

Perhaps I wouldn't appear so scathing to peoples quotes if they took some time to proof read what they are saying. You just can't go through life walking on people feet and think you are going to get away with it every time. I certainly am not the person to allow people to think rubbish about me and consider it a truth. I will happily reflect on what they say, and when I see their bad reaction to their very own words, it makes me feel a little better. That perhaps they didn't actually mean what they said, but are too proud to take it back.

Isn't it fun to have discussions like it? I love it. You think I am upset? Hardly! This is nothing compared to the real life problems we face. I am very amused by peoples bad reactions, it is almost as if they have never faced adversity before, at least you can learn a little about different opinion on piano street, and that not everyone will agree with you.


All I say is opinion, and if you guys are American maybe I should call upon the constitution, where we all have freedom of speech, or are you against your own laws? Me being shown the front door out of piano street by the minority certainly highlights forgetting that everyone is entitled to their opinions and if you want to debate the opinion we should do so, but not get abusive about it.

[michel dvorsky]

Nobody denied your right to voice your opinion.

People have suggested that you might be better off simply *not* posting.

There is only so much drivel one can read.

[lostinidlewonder]

Nobody denied your right to voice your opinion.

People have suggested that you might be better off simply *not* posting.

There is only so much drivel one can read.

Would it be drivel for you if you where the one being accused? Members have the opportunity to privately post to each other, it wasn't my choice to make this the public forum.  Simply not posting means shut up and don't speak your opinion. So it is denying the right to voice your opinion. Certainly the hostility and tagging of my opinion (as drivel and much more) highlights the disrespect for freedom of speech. The amusing thing is that I am just relaying what people are saying themselves, so they are getting angry over my misinterpretation of what they say but are unwilling to clarify themselves.

To defend myself and put up resistance to peoples opinions on me would be silly. However when people try to mix truth with their opinion and encourage others to think like themselves, I feel a little defensive especially when the topic is on myself. Not that I am personally involved with any of you, but the debate on what you think and know is something I will happily discuss.

[michel dvorsky]

You write so much but say so little.

You're just wasting bandwidth.

[lostinidlewonder]

You write so much but say so little.

Let me just test what you say here just to show how people jump to conclusions. Also let me highlight that your opinion is without basis.

I write so much but say so little, lets see..

Would it be drivel for you if you where the one being accused?

This highlights a point; why call someone defending themselves as drivel? Put yourself in my shoes, what would you do? If you say nothing, that is fine, if you say something, I am sure other people will have the opinion that it is drivel too. But that is avoiding the purpose of discussion, where two points are put forward, to pull down the worth of what someone says is not good grounds for debate or even constructive learning. An opinion is stronger if it has a reason behind it, not just a feeling.

Members have the opportunity to privately post to each other, it wasn't my choice to make this the public forum. 

Here I am highlighting that although I am responding in the public domain it is only because those who accused me did so in the first place. So that if you to think it was my idea to post this for all to see, this conclusion is wrong.

Simply not posting means shut up and don't speak your opinion. So it is denying the right to voice your opinion.

This puts forward an opposing opinion on your thoughts that I should shut up and that would still be respecting freedom of speech. In my mind, if I shut up because people tell me to and I let them freely talk negatively about myself, then I am actively going against my freedom of speech right.

Certainly the hostility and tagging of my opinion (as drivel and much more) highlights the disrespect for freedom of speech.

Simply name calling peoples opinions doesn't teach anyone anything. That you call my talk drivel highlight your disinterest in my defense. You have the choice not to read just as I have the choice to voice my opinion and defend myself if accused in public.

The amusing thing is that I am just relaying what people are saying themselves, so they are getting angry over my misinterpretation of what they say but are unwilling to clarify themselves.

This highlights that people are angry basically because I have questioned what they say themselves. I haven't said, hey you, you idiot, how can you think crap like this, you are stupid, foolish, don't you know anything? I have voiced my opinion and explain why I think a certain way, if people don't like it they should either respond constructively, because school yard name calling doesn't work.

To defend myself and put up resistance to peoples opinions on me would be silly. However when people try to mix truth with their opinion and encourage others to think like themselves, I feel a little defensive especially when the topic is on myself.

I wouldn't defend myself if people said we think this about you, it is our personal opinion. I would ask them to elaborate so I can understand their stance and perhaps change my reactions to them in the future. But when people try to convince others to believe their personal opinion, to me this deserves to be defended against. Not only for my own benefit but for those who react negatively towards others. They have to realize that they cannot just simply go through life condemning people that they have difference of opinion, this reminds me of dark ages witch hunts or Nazi Germany.

[enderw20]

This is getting out of hand, cant we all just get along?

[lostinidlewonder]

This is getting out of hand, cant we all just get along?

I agree.

[general disarray]

Let it go, friend. 

A gentleman disagreed with you.  it's not an attack against your personal worth.   Nor should your response be an attack against his personal worth.

It's a disagreement.  Words.  They are the perceptions after sensation. Yes?  "Sensation" is the unvarnished truth.  What we see before we know the word for it.  Remember?  The first time you saw the miracle of a tree?  Pure sensation.  Then someone gave you the word for it.  "Perception."  And the sensation died.  Life became less interesting.

Arguments are not interesting.  They are about perceptions.  Once removed from reality. 

Let it go. 

Pace.   

[tds]

Let it go, friend. 

we should all have a party at a tropical beach with massive amount of alcohol

[m]

we should all have a party at a tropical beach with massive amount of alcohol

As long as there gonna be some bitter to start with, followed by a 15 years Laphroaig, I am gonna be there  .

Best, M

[tds]

As long as there gonna be some bitter to start with, followed by a 15 years Laphroaig, I am gonna be there  .

Best, M

yay, maybe best place to be would be hawaii. general disarray, u think u can organize sumthin?

[term]

Let it go, friend. 

A gentleman disagreed with you.  it's not an attack against your personal worth.   Nor should your response be an attack against his personal worth.

It's a disagreement.  Words.  They are the perceptions after sensation. Yes?  "Sensation" is the unvarnished truth.  What we see before we know the word for it.  Remember?  The first time you saw the miracle of a tree?  Pure sensation.  Then someone gave you the word for it.  "Perception."  And the sensation died.  Life became less interesting.

Arguments are not interesting.  They are about perceptions.  Once removed from reality. 

Let it go. 

Pace.   

heeyyyy...
A bit cheesy, but really well put.   

[franz-liszt]

Don Juan by Liszt is really difficult too!

[general disarray]

heeyyyy...
A bit cheesy, but really well put.   

You're right.  It's "a bit cheesy."  I got drunk at a beach party.

If you can drag marik from the piano long enough, I'll throw a lu'au to end all lu'aus on Hanalei Bay for you maniacs. 

Get packed . . . and BYOB, please.  I ain't rich. 

[tds]

i c what u mean and besides maybe its too short a notice . now i wonder if we should have a pianostreet.com gathering somewhere, sometime, somehow.

[synapse]

lostinidlewonder, why are you sitting nearly crying trying to defend yourself? You're so weak, its really quite sad. You're trying to justify yourself as having the higher moral ground on a forum, give it up man.

Also, I had no idea this thread was going to be such an effective troll. Some of you take opinions of art and stuff way too seriously. I'm out.

[tds]

oh, ehmm, one question: when is this thread gonna die? or be locked?

[thalbergmad]

When people stop posting on it

[tds]

i have a feeling it aint gonna happen anytime soon

[dnephi]

No way, if every one like him leaves then we we would actually have to talk about the topic instead of assinine posts.

Maybe people who couldn't spell left, we wouldn't have so many problems either.

[enderw20]

Maybe people who couldn't spell left, we wouldn't have so many problems either.

You got me, my poor spelling is the root of all evil.

[dnephi]

You got me, my poor spelling is the root of all evil.

Possibly not, but perhaps it demonstrates a lack of attention to detail and care for precision, which would be a more interesting problem.

[enderw20]

Possibly not, but perhaps it demonstrates a lack of attention to detail and care for precision, which would be a more interesting problem.

Too true, I can't argue with you on this one. This is probably the very cause of my not being taken seriously in the higher circles of academia.

[dnephi]

Part of it was tongue-in-cheek, poking fun at the whole forum, which doesn't exactly claim a high level of grammatical rectitude.

[lostinidlewonder]

lostinidlewonder, why are you sitting nearly crying trying to defend yourself? You're so weak, its really quite sad. You're trying to justify yourself as having the higher moral ground on a forum, give it up man.

Sorry if you're frustrated. There are things you can do to with yourself to release your tension

[buhdaporn]

Hi, everyone.
I'm a new member of this website and I want to introduce myself.
My name is Buhdaporn (Put is my nick name).
I'm in grade 9 now and I'm 15 years old.
I like playing piano very much, I spent a lot of time on it. And I have played piano for 4 years from grade 4-6 and grade 8-9.
I like Liszt and Chopin very much.
I want you to see my video, its on youtube

1. Tetris -

2. Black key - 

&feature=related
Last is Chopin Fantasia Impromptu op.66 -

&feature=related

Thank you   

[scottical]

Hi everyone,

I am new to this forum as well. 

I'd like to introduce myself.  My name is Scott, I am 14 years old.  I have taken piano lessons starting in 2002 at the age of seven.  Over the past several years I've developed an interest in piano, as well as classical music as a whole.  I've grown to appreciate music on a large scale and find this website very informative of piano repertoire. 

God bless,
Scott

[nearenough]

I'm 71 and started playing the piano at age 4-5 but remained only a very good
amateur all my life. I read through parts 1-2 of this forum listing several "impossibly difficult" pieces. As for me, Feux Follets, one of the Moments Musicaux of Rachmaninoff, his concerto #3, and several preludes and etudes tableaux, Islamey, Chopin's Etude Op 10 #2, Gaspard de la Nuit, Alborada del Gracioso by Ravel (Miroirs) remain very difficult for me. I have heard Hamelin pay Alkan but even that relatively understandable romantic composer seemed difficult BUT musically trite and gauche. Worse is Sorabji; yes difficult, but wooden and contrived. You think, "hey, this guy really wants to be a composer desperately, but he not only has no inspiration or genius at melody, but thinks music making is stringing non-harmonic atonal threads in endless and pointless harsh and annoying patterns. I sat through Ogdon's 5 CDs and have no wish to return for a second listening; I cannot hum a single phrase from it. Some of these late modern composers remind me of James Joyce's repulsive rantings and neologisms -- what a clever little boy. That's all for now, and will try to hunt down some unfamiliar Liszt or Mendelssohn. ahhyesireallycanlistenlistenyeslistenhearhear.

[ctrastevere]

Worse is Sorabji; yes difficult, but wooden and contrived. You think, "hey, this guy really wants to be a composer desperately, but he not only has no inspiration or genius at melody, but thinks music making is stringing non-harmonic atonal threads in endless and pointless harsh and annoying patterns. I sat through Ogdon's 5 CDs and have no wish to return for a second listening; I cannot hum a single phrase from it.

Ogdon's recording of OC, though miles better than G.D. Madge's travesty of a performance, is inaccurate and a poor representation of Sorabji's music. I'd recommend listening to the Solo Concerto (recorded by Powell), one of the sonatas, or any of the Habermann recordings before dismissing Sorabji altogether. He had a lot to offer both harmonically and melodically if one is willing to take the time to get used to his language. Some of his works, such as the nocturnes, are incredibly beautiful, and unlike anything you're likely to hear by any other composer.

(There's a lot of stuff posted on YouTube. But you didn't hear that from me...)

[nearenough]

Reply to ctra: Thanks for your reply. I enjoy discussing these musical characters since I am relatively isolated (not in a school, no teacher...). I have 2 other CDs of Sorabji, one entitled "Le Jardin Parfume" (incidentally ONE OF THE WORST rip-offs, some 26 minutes ONLY on a CD, played by Yonty Solomon, Altarus AIR-CD-9037). I honestly tried to "enjoy" them but found the Jardin writing vague, meandering, uncertain, flabby...something like watered down Scriabin.

Just today I was listening to Sessions Sonata #3; mostly banging. I have a Nancarrow LP with his clever player piano items but really just annoying. Barber is tolerable -- neo-romantic. Horowitz played a bit of it. Carter and Boulez are lying dormant among things I'd rather just let lay. So I am somewhat familiar with the moderns. I suppose they hold interest to "real" musicians (maybe the ones that can memorize pieces on one hearing and play them back, or read with ease crazy-quilt new methods of notation).

Hmmm, what's my point? Why can't many modern composers carry on the genius methods of Chopin or Mozart? Scriabin did a good job and I refer to him often. Last week I was listening to Schnittke and he composed a plausible Haydn-genre piece that I found honest. One wonders, why don't Jazz musicians get into the pretentious banging and random crashing that passes nowadays for "classical"? How about a Broadway musical scored by Heinz or Stockhausen? I guess these types have written operas; screeching way up and way down on the "musical" scale -- much more irritating than the usual opera (I'm not a big fan of singing!)

Anyway, i guess I have digressed from the "most difficult" subject. Perhaps these modern avant-garde people are so different one wonders if it is music at all; I wager that very few can approach it even to get the least bit satisfying feedback. Hence the most difficult.

Now I'll go back to humming John Cage's 4'33".

[ctrastevere]

Hmmm, what's my point? Why can't many modern composers carry on the genius methods of Chopin or Mozart?

Many of them can, and demonstrate their abilities to do so in much of their work. Sorabji, if one can define him as a "modern composer" to begin with, uses fairly conventional methods in his writing. It's not that the composers are incapable of implementing traditional techniques -- it's just that they are not bound by them.

[communist]

The Circus Galop by Marc-Andre Hamelin

[go12_3]

Anything with all flat or sharps with everything else in between is hard enough in
a piece.  It makes my eyes go    and then my brain wants to shut down    to the point I can't even begin to place my hands upon the keyboard to make sense on any difficult piece.....   OH my gosh!  What do these composers think we are---
super human?   

[jabbz]

Hmmm, what's my point? Why can't many modern composers carry on the genius methods of Chopin or Mozart? Scriabin did a good job and I refer to him often. Last week I was listening to Schnittke and he composed a plausible Haydn-genre piece that I found honest. One wonders, why don't Jazz musicians get into the pretentious banging and random crashing that passes nowadays for "classical"?

Hmm, why bother indeed? Should composers now keep regurgitating the same music we've been hearing for the last 350 years? Let me address each of the composers you mentioned:

Scriabin's EARLY work was heavily influenced by Chopin - nice and tonal and safe, however his later work is certainly not crafted from the major/minor tonal system, does that mean he in fact wasn't a genius?

Schnittke is by no means a simple pastiche composer, listen to his concerto for piano and strings as an example. Does that make him less of an able composer, unable to "carry on the genius methods of Chopin or Mozart"?

Jazz is just as avant-garde as western art music, listen to free jazz as an example.

And oh yes, why expect composers to keep composing "Classical" music? The Classical period is dead, 1750-1820. Classical music has its place, but I'd rather continue listening to art music as opposed to such a narrow range of music.

[healdie]

Jazz does have the "crashing" Avant guard its called avant jazz (surprised?) Miles davies wrote some pretty avant guard stuff and so did John Coltrane

and you talk about the genius methods of Mozart and Chopin well Wikipedia defines a Genius as

"A genius is an individual who successfully applies a previously unknown technique in the production of a work of art, science or calculation, or who masters and personalizes a known technique"

well apart from opera Mozart made very few additions to technique he didn't really invent anything new so In my eyes he was incredibly talented but not neccessarly a genius

but we only got this far as a species because we advance and change if we kept doing the same thing we would still be walking on 4 legs so why should we not advance with music and the arts?

[scottmcc]

Hmmm, what's my point? Why can't many modern composers carry on the genius methods of Chopin or Mozart? Scriabin did a good job and I refer to him often. Last week I was listening to Schnittke and he composed a plausible Haydn-genre piece that I found honest. One wonders, why don't Jazz musicians get into the pretentious banging and random crashing that passes nowadays for "classical"?

try on some ornett coleman if you don't think jazz musicians get into stupid banging/nails on a chalkboard.  ugh.  actually, don't.  it's bad.

JUST SAY NO TO "FREE JAZZ!"

[scottical]

Donald Martino's Pianississimo is ridiculously difficult.  If you can read the score, you've only met the least of your troubles.  Here is an excerpt:



As you can see, there is a lot of black.
I understand this is a low quality shot, I apologize.

[tanman]

yay, maybe best place to be would be hawaii. general disarray, u think u can organize sumthin?

howz about Guam? 

[tds]

howz about Guam? 

maybe not, coz u going to japan

[point of grace]

what do you think about prokofieff 2nd piano concerto, is it really one of the most difficult pieces ever written?

[scottical]

-

[jabbz]

Irresponsible usage of multiple staves, and in the first bar isn't the same e in two staves? Other than that, it looks like a good arrangement.

[rob47]

something I put together after Ligeti died, but I never finished and never will

it looks tricky!

[scottical]

Irresponsible usage of multiple staves, and in the first bar isn't the same e in two staves? Other than that, it looks like a good arrangement.

The entire first verse was scored with two staves, but I didn't like this form of notation at all.  The application of multiple staves keeps the score spaced out, and in my opinion, is much easier to read.  I particularly wanted to emphasize the prolonged bass notes in the chorus section.

[alpacinator1]

You guys have it all wrong!

The hardest piece is Faerie's Aire and Death Waltz by John Stump. The easiest, of course, is 4'33.

[alpacinator1]

Actually, the easiest piece is 0'00", which Ligeti wrote as a parody on 4'33".

Haha, Ligeti is now officially my favorite composer.

[wise0404]

Anyone need o c??!!!!!!!





 the hardest piece is circus galop, oc, faieres and death waltz, or a homemade piece by someone crazy...... sh*t.

[wise0404]

I admit the hardest piece is ...








...................................................... a piece by a psycho named wise0404........this is just weird..........sh*t...pregnant dog