Opinions on the Hardest piano piece ever written

[wise0404]

if you want the sheet music for OC, email me at wise0404@gmail.com

[wise0404]

I'm sorry for any inconvienence

[slow_concert_pianist]

Taking aside modern compositions which are theoretically unplayable, there are three aspects to music - notes, direction and completeness. Jorge Bolet summed it up well. He said there were numerous works of extreme difficultly available and sighted examples by Godowsky, but then qualified by saying there are 100's of competent recordings of Beethoven's Hammerklaviar. Whereas, he continued, only 9 performers have been able to record Liszt's Transcendental Etude "Mazeppa" as it is meant to be played.

In summary, it is one thing to "play" a work, but a whole different case to perform it in such a way as to herald all potential critics delight. Although, the devout cynics amongst us might legitimately enquire who is able to criticise the critic.

I do wonder why the state of music seems to be disintegrating into disengenious performances bleeched of colour and texture in order to satisfy some devilish mantra - I can play faster and louder than anyone else. If you want sheer difficultly try Mozart's Sonata in C "semplice". But set your metronomones to 500 minim BPM. I'll defy anyone to play it at that speed, but "hey presto" you have just found your new "hardest piece ever written".

[wise0404]

I admit I have liszt's transcendental etudes.
It's easy.
Everything is easy.
maybe a
person might not be able to play some songs.
But a computer can play something like impossible.
It can play something in 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000etc seconds

[slow_concert_pianist]

I admit I have liszt's transcendental etudes.
It's easy.
Everything is easy.
maybe a
person might not be able to play some songs.
But a computer can play something like impossible.
It can play something in 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000etc seconds

There is some sense in this nonesense. Everything is easy when you know how & can. Everything is difficult when you don't know and can't.

On a side issue if human's cannot comprehend or experience the capability of machines, can they truly have them? Or perhaps I should rephrase; if humans could not experience a machine's full capability, how could we comprehend it?

I guess it boils down to the eternal battle between those who seek sanctity from bluff, bluster and puffery & those who only draw truth from experience.

[ahinton]

if you want the sheet music for OC, email me at wise0404@gmail.com

I rather think that most people here know where to obtain a score of OC, thank you!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Yeah, e mule.

Thal

[ahinton]

Yeah, e mule.

Er, no - not from there, as well you know - and why engage a mule to take it away in any case? Anyway, for the record, a brand new corrected typeset edition of OC is in progress and will, once completed, supercede what's being talked about here and be supplied in due course by us to all those who want the best OC score that they can come by.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Great, I will purchase one as soon as it is ready.

I would not want a score with obvious errors in it. Would spoil the entire structure.

Thal

[ahinton]

Great, I will purchase one as soon as it is ready.

I would not want a score with obvious errors in it. Would spoil the entire structure.

Whilst I must say that I am very sorry that I'm as yet unable to provide to you a release date for this edition, errors in the published score as it now stands will not and indeed do not "spoil the entire structure" of the work for, if they did, the existing recordings and performances of it by the various pianists who have to date played it would all be far too severely compromised; that said, it will of course be good to have the text as error-free and legible as possible, for the benefit of both future performenrs and all those who want to study the score.

Best,

Alistair

[wise0404]

  lets just say there is many hard songs to play.
what the ***

[ahinton]

lets just say there is many hard songs to play.

"Songs"? - to "play"? Hmmm...

what the ***

Quite.

Whether it is easier to be "wise" before or after the event appears to be unclear...

Best,

Alistair

[wise0404]

well they don't show you cuss words

[wise0404]

....or do they???

[wise0404]

sevtkbh etbyioq4n7q 896y4nq5

[ahinton]

If the last three posts in this thread have the remotest connection with any kind of meaningful expressions in the English language, perhaps someone here might care to identify what these might be...

Best,

Alistair

[simonjp90]

If the last three posts in this thread have the remotest connection with any kind of meaningful expressions in the English language, perhaps someone here might care to identify what these might be...

Best,

Alistair

a cuss word is slang for a swear word

the next post says "or do they [show swear words] ?"

the last one i can only assume is what happens when you type in swear words and click post.

Best,

Simon

[simonjp90]

are you the same alisdair hinton that wrote variations & fugue on a theme of grieg??

[ahinton]

a cuss word is slang for a swear word

I do know that!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

are you the same alisdair hinton that wrote variations & fugue on a theme of grieg??

Alistair, not Alisdair, but yes, I am indeed that person.

Best,

Alistair

[simonjp90]

Alistair, not Alisdair, but yes, I am indeed that person.

Best,

Alistair

ah thats amazing! I came across that piece on youtube, really nice writing

[ahinton]

ah thats amazing! I came across that piece on youtube, really nice writing

Thank you very much. Really nicer playing, I'd say, too...

Best,

Alistair

[mephisto]

Thank you very much. Really nicer playing, I'd say, too...

Best,

Alistair

I haven't heard the piece, but could you please tell me wich theme by Grieg you use in your "Variations and fugue on a theme by Greig"?

[ahinton]

I haven't heard the piece, but could you please tell me wich theme by Grieg you use in your "Variations and fugue on a theme by Greig"?

It's Åse's Death from his incidental music for Peer Gynt. The piece starts with an introduction based on fragments of that theme rather than a straight presentation of the theme as a whole; this is followed by eighteen variations, a double fugue and a coda.

Best,

Alistair

[ghostgeezer]

This is my first day on this website, so I am full of it, as they say.

Chopsticks.

When we talk about difficulty, we are all talking about a kind of greed that
is not the most admirable aspect of being a musician.  One can say that
this piece is harder than that one and be completely convincing, but the question
itself sweeps away far more important questions as soon as it asked.

If it is hard, then why is it hard?  What is hard?  Is the last movement of
the Moonlight Sonata harder than the other two?  Obviously it it is, but unobviously
it is not.  Its shadow questions however have now been swept away.

The question itself is boring both on its on terms and in light of what it removes
from any subsequent discussion.  So, here, briefly, is that discussion.

The most difficult thing about playing music is staying awake to it.  That problem,
one shared equally in the challenges of meditation, is a great leveler.  There
are good and bad performances of Chopsticks, including letter perfect mechanical
ones that serve as the first warning of how exactly the same mindset is going
to fare with a Schubert character piece.

I had the great good fortune to know David Tudor, who stunned the world by memorizing
in 6 weeks the 2nd Sonata of Boulez, then playing it as the U.S. premiere.  Here,
at this level, we start to talk about "difficult" music even as we continue the same
set of errors in so doing.   

David Tudor however put things in especial perspective for me when in 1967 while
in a class at U.C. Davis that he taught on live electronic music in production (no piano
this week, folks) I asked him how best to practice Stockhausen.  His answer,
accompanied by his famous Cheshire cat smile was,  "Stay awake."

May we all know that when we talk about difficult music, we are dealing with an art
that threatens to be a sport by pushing it off the fence to that rather tacky side.

John Dinwiddie
Santa Rosa Ca
USA

[lostinidlewonder]

The corner of my complete volume of Beethoven's Sonatas fell on my foot the other day, it was very hard and painful.

[wise0404]

what the f-u-c-k are you talking about people.
 

[pianist7]

Opus Clavicembalisticum, but that wouldn't be taken very seriously

[richard black]

what the f-u-c-k are you talking about people.

On the one hand, you could hang around here long enough to find out. On the other hand, you might find that you become part of it.... be afraid! Mwahahahahahaha......

[zaiful79]

Regards,
NegeriAds.com Solusi Berpromosi

[tuufy]

Hamelin - Circus galop :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

if dont know, youtube it and get spanked :DDDDD

[eminemvsrach]

Hamelin - Circus galop :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

if dont know, youtube it and get spanked :DDDDD

LOL if he didn't have that weird pianissimo section and those chord glissandos near the end, the piece would be much more enjoyable. 

[vesivian]

FUR ELISE

[pianoplayjl]

Ravel Scarbo

[williampiano]

Nikolai Kapustin- Etude no.3: Toccatina

Dmitiri Shostakovich- The Fugue from Prelude & Fugue op. 87 no. 15
I've never actually tried to play through it, but it seems incredibly hard.

Most of Georges Cziffra's piano transcriptions.

Samuil Feinberg- Sonata no. 6

Leo Ornstein- Danse Sauvage

Josef Hofmann- The Sanctuary

[pianoplayjl]

FUR ELISE

I agree. The OC must be so easy and short anyone can play it easily in under a minute.

Nikolai Kapustin- Etude no.3: Toccatina

Dmitiri Shostakovich- The Fugue from Prelude & Fugue op. 87 no. 15
I've never actually tried to play through it, but it seems incredibly hard.

Most of Georges Cziffra's piano transcriptions.

Samuil Feinberg- Sonata no. 6

Leo Ornstein- Danse Sauvage

Josef Hofmann- The Sanctuary

I have to agree about the Danse Sauvage, though such a 'plinker' it is. The only work I like form Ornstein is the A la CHinoise and the Suicide on an airplane. The others are just not worth listening, just as most of the atonal piano music. Simply a joke to my ears.
I also agree about the Cziffra transcriptions, though I believe they are just underplayed and not popular with pianists.

JL

[drkilroy]

This is not precisely on topic, but you should listen to Ornstein's waltzes - they are quite enjoyable.

Best regards, Dr

[the89thkey]

FUR ELISE

Yes, definitely. Took me years to learn this piece. In fact, I'm not sure I have it completely mastered now...I miss notes from time to time, and struggle to bring out the melody...
On another note, I think whoever wrote this is either very ignorant...or JOKING. I tend to assume the best.

[slobone]

Dmitiri Shostakovich- The Fugue from Prelude & Fugue op. 87 no. 15
I've never actually tried to play through it, but it seems incredibly hard.

You mean because the metronome marking is 188 per dotted half? Not even Hamelin plays it that fast. I don't know whether the metronome markings in that book were by Shostakovich or somebody else, but some of them are insane.

[ruvidoetostinato]

I just threw my whole body on the keyboard and let it notate it in finale. 

The piece lasts 2 seconds, but I think it's the most difficult piece ever written.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I was screwing around in music theory and I've composed something impossible to play.  In just one staff.

[lostinidlewonder]

I was screwing around in music theory and I've composed something impossible to play.  In just one staff.

That's nothing at all. I have composed something that is so difficult that no one can play it more than once. It requires the players to cut off their fingers and throw them at the strings at precise locations.

[kakeithewolf]

The definition of "hardest" depends greatly based on what kind of difficulty you are talking about.

A song could be very slow, yet be difficult due to the notes being played requiring your fingers to be spread very far apart. A piece could be difficult solely due to speed (Alkan's Etudes often bring this to my mind), whilst not necessarily having a difficult set of notes to play. A song could be difficult due to being arrhythmic or atonal, or due to having to constantly move your fingers and use nearly all of them. A song could be difficult due to rapidly shifting dynamics, tempos, key signatures, time signatures, or metres. A song could be difficult due to needing to use a bizarre or unorthodox technique. A song can even be difficult due to sheer length. A song could be difficult for these reasons and more... But what makes a song difficult? Combining all of them.

I have not heard of a song that employs all of these, close as pieces like the Etudes Australes and Opus Clavicembalisticum may come to employing them all. But to employ all of these and retain a proper semblance of palatable musical quality? Such is a difficult task. To ensure the hardest piece is made, you must ensure a system of chaos. But how, one may ask, can chaos be anything but dissonant and cacophonous? That is the roadblock.

The Opus Clavicembalisticum is the most difficult I have heard (That I consider not to be dysgeusic).

[slobone]

The Opus Clavicembalisticum is the most difficult I have heard (That I consider not to be dysgeusic).

Or ageusic.

[kakeithewolf]

Or ageusic.

Ah, very clever indeed!

[lostinidlewonder]

I believe that trying to sing the OC would be certainly very difficult

[ahinton]

I believe that trying to sing the OC would be certainly very difficult

Indeed - and point well understood (that kind of thing irritate me, too!) - yet it's worth bearing in mind tht its composer did once say to Geoffrey Douglas Madge "think of it as a song"...

Best,

Alistair

[ed palamar]

At the ca. 41 minute mark, Artur Cimarro implies his Op. 1 etudes are the most difficult written.