Russian Fairy Tales

[andhow04]

hi i heard once in a masterclass that a lot of Rachmaninoff's music was inspired by old russian fairy tales, particiularly some of the etudes such as op.39 no.9 or no.4. Anyone have any more information about this? Or can lead me to a book, where i can read some fairy tales. Please don't respond with information about medtner fairy tales Nobody mentioned those!! 
Thanks
andrew howzer

[Barbosa-piano]

 This is the first time I hear this, it might be true, since he wrote his Aleko based on a work by Pushkin... I also heard that his 2nd Concerto was based on the sound of passing gipsys of when he lived with his teacher, and of course, his Prelude Op. 3 no.4 on the tolling bells of Moscow... I will see if I can find more information on this... Thank you for bringing this subject up!
Mario Barbosa

[alhimia]

I think the etude op. 39 nr. 6 (A minor) is bases on a fairy tale, but don't know which actually

[pianonut]

being that my husband is russian, i have learned a little bit of russian, enjoy russian music (especially singers - such as ivan rebrov, and slavonic russian choirs with deep basso voices).  we visted pitt university - and went through the nationality rooms there.  they have teachers that know everything about the fairy tales, etc.  you might try one of the prof's at pitt. - seems that there are a lot of musicians there, too.

a site where you can see some pics:
  https://clover.slavic.pitt.edu/~tales/images.html

some of the more used stories:  baba yaga, firebird, the frog princess, the swan princess...  just don't really know which ones rachmaninov used.  i had a book i bought on rach, but lost it.

[bernhard]

On the subject of Russian fairy tales, have a look here:

https://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/rrrussian.html

You can read a few here:

https://www.lacquerbox.com/tales.htm

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Motrax]

(Most of the following is from https://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-08262003-154535/unrestricted/09_Etudes_Tableaux.pdf, though some of it's from my memory and a bio of Rachmaninoff written by Bertensson and Leyda. The essay above is pretty interesting - certainly worth reading if you have the time.)

It's true that some (and most, perhaps) of Rachmaninoff's etude-tableaux were inspired by specific scenes or stories. Ottorino Respighi orchestrated five of the etudes, and in doing so, asked Rachmaninoff for the specific programs used in the pieces.

A number of the etudes refer to the Daes Irae theme (see the link above). The etudes Respighi orchestrated are given programs as follows:

Op 33 No 6 (sometimes marked as No 7, it's in Eb major) - Scene at a fair
op 39 No 2 - The Sea and Seagulls
Op 39 No 6 - The Little Red Riding Hood
Op 39 No 7 - Funeral March
Op 39 No 9 - Oriental March

Much of Rachmaninoff's other music was also based on stories, paintings, or general themes. For example, the B minor prelude (Op 32 No 10) is most likely based on a painting by Arnold Bocklin called "The Return," though there's a chance the definite theme of "Exile" came from some other source.

Of all the music I've played and listened to, only Rachmaninoff's has summoned very specific images in my own mind (although many pieces by other composers are clearly programmed - those of Ravel, for example - none quite reach the level of imagery that Rachmaninoff's music evokes). I do believe a great deal of Rachmaninoff's music was inspired by specific events, images, or stories. However, the pieces above, and a few very clearly named pieces (like the four movements of the Op 5 piano suite, or the "Isle of the Dead" which is based on a painting by Bocklin of the same name) are the only confirmed programs that I know of.

Some of the rumored programs include
Symphonic Dances, Op 45 - The three movements represent Morning, Afternoon, and Night
Piano Concerto No. 3, Op 30 - Rumored to be based on some Russian folk melody, although Rachmaninoff himself stated that the theme just randomly came to him, after which he simply wrote the rest of the piece on similar, random inspiration.
Prelude Op 3 No 2 - Publishers printed this with a number of titles which I can't quite remember. Something along the lines of "The Bells of St. Petersburg" and something else about a fire... suffice to say, this was all speculation and marketing on the part of the publishers, but maybe one of them got it right. We'll never know for sure.

And by the way, Medtner's fairy tales are great. Go learn some. 

[pianonut]

wow!  bernhard and motrax have some good info.

[bernhard]

wow!  bernhard and motrax have some good info.

 

(nah. Motrax is the real article. )

[Motrax]

But with all the information already on pf (we've nearly reached that critical mass), isn't your job now reduced to simply posting links to massive posts you (and others) have already written? 

[bernhard]

But with all the information already on pf (we've nearly reached that critical mass), isn't your job now reduced to simply posting links to massive posts you (and others) have already written? 

I raised this question at one point, but it is not true.

What is true, is that all the information presently available barely skims the surface of the tip of the iceberg.

But apparently people are not interested in going further.

Most interesting threads quickly die without ever developing as they could.

The same questions keep being asked again and again. One directs such questioners to old threads where some sort of answer is available, in the hope that they will take that as a starting point and come back with new questions/arguments. But it doesn't seem to happen.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Motrax]

Well, perhaps I'll take a stab at developing this most interesting... 

Do any pieces give you very distinct images that you didn't impose on the piece yourself? (Doesn't have to be Rachmaninoff, or Russian music at all). Also, are there any pieces you think you know what the composer was thinking when (s)he wrote them?

[bernhard]

I mostly agree with Ted. I don’t think music in general is programmatic at all. You can (and should) associate with it whatever you can. So yes, pieces do elicit on me very specific images and feelings, but I do not think that the same piece would elicit the same images and feelings in any other person.

I certainly do not think I have the faintest idea of what the composer himself was thinking.

However, knowledge of facts about the piece and circumstances of its composition may change dramatically my mental associations with the piece.

For instance, when –many years ago – when I first heard “Erinerung” (Schumann Op. 68 no. 28 ), I had no clue what it was all about. It seemed a pleasant enough tune.

Under the title (in my edition) a date: 4 November 1847  At the time I assumed it was the date of composition.

Many years later, having become a curious person, I decided to dig further, and of course it is the date of Mendelssohn’s death.

The whole piece changed from that moment. Not anymore just a pleasant piece, it suddenly became a poignant and powerful evocation of Mendelssonh’s personality (he was a thoroughly nice guy), his unjustifiably untimely death (at only 32), his amazing musicality (he was the most celebrated child prodigy since Mozart) and talent (he was also a superlative painter and writer), all enmeshed with his friendship for Schumann, his championship of Schumann’s romance with Clara.

Many people say that Schumann’s year of song was mostly inspired by his approaching marriage to Clara. It has been argued (and I agree) that Mendelssohn was probably a far more important influence.

So suddenly this simple piece – with a most appropriate title: “Remembrance” -  becomes a glimpse on a whole universe of interlinked associations of the most profound kind: love and friendship, the meeting of like minds (Clara, Schumann, Mendelssohn, all musicians in their prime), the unbelievable loss, all the music that will never be, all the music that came to be as a consequence, the fight of excellence against mediocrity (the band of David against the philistines), and more.

But of course, this is all personal and subjective (and to me, very enjoyable as well, so I am always trying to gather more information about the pieces I love).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[bernhard]

Incidentally, here is Chopin;s opinion of the critic’s attempts to impose a program on his music:

In a letter, written later from Paris, to Delphine Potocka, Chopin poured scorn on those of his contemporaries who tried to find an underlying programme or meaning for his work.  He wrote:
”The critics are ridiculous — they want to know everything about everything.  Such a connoisseur will discourse learnedly about how love or despair impelled you to create this or that work.  And if I were to tell him how it actually was, namely, that I had composed the piece because it was raining, because I had no place to go and I felt sad and empty to the point of going crazy, he wouldn't believe that it all arose from the rain.  As a matter of fact, Beethoven may have written his Funeral March because he had a stomach ache... Critics frequently see in a work all sorts of things that its author never even dreamed of putting into it.  However, a critic will sometimes help a composer to understand something that came to him as out of the blue in the fever of his inspiration, something that he merely felt, but failed to edit in the light of cold reason and reflection.  Such passages unspoiled by reflection are the best part of a work.  But there are few critics endowed with true intelligence. Most of them are asses who care nothing for the artist or his works, who want to show off with their fanciful elaborations as singers do.  They talk much, but there is no way of sifting anything intelligent out of their talk.

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.