Rachmaninoff: Which sonata do you prefer?

[donjuan]

Hi everyone,
I am sort of thinking about studying a Rachmaninoff sonata and I am not sure which one I should choose.  I personally prefer the first one because I like the melodies more, but I would like to know which one you would play and why.  I understand No. 2 is more popular, but I need your help understanding why that is.

More importantly, which one is more technically and/or musically difficult?
I dont want to start studying a piece and only realize after a month of toil that it is too difficult for me to finish learning.

Thanks for your help,
donjuan

[dikai_yang]

well, no. 2 is a bit over-played.  it'd seem like everybody needs that in the recital round at a intl' competition...

my theory of why the no. 1 is not played so often, is that it's way too difficult...
it's kinda like his concerto no. 1...
may not be very popular, because it's certainly in a way more difficult than no. 3 and no. 4...

but melody alone, i prefer the no.2
however, the "power".... no. 1 no questions asked....
in every single movement, there's this "power moment"!!

[Skeptopotamus]

I'm gonna be boring and go with the No. 2 (1931).  No. 2 is like infinitely more difficult musically and also more difficult technically i'd say.

And Rach 1 being the most difficult?  o.O

[Nightscape]

After seeing the scores to both sonatas, I believe the the 1st in d minor is more difficult technically.  In addition, it is also 12-15 minutes longer than the second sonata.  I wouldn't say it's quite as hard as the 3rd concerto technically, but harder than the other concertos.  I personally prefer the 1st sonata myself.....
  As far as musical challenges go,  I also believe the first is harder as well.  For starters, I think when Rachmaninoff wrote the 1st sonata, he meant it to be a large, dramatic work - monumental, delivering the same impact as one of his concertos.  I do not believe this was his goal with the second sonata since the final version of the 2nd sonata is both smaller in dimensions and also smaller in the musical ideas it explores (although still very profound).   Note too that Rachmaninoff deemed the 2nd sonata necessary of revision. I would say the the 2nd sonata almost works as a large single movement piece, whereas the 1st sonata is three of these large movements.  Also, since Rachmaninoff wrote these sonatas fairly close chronologically (within five years of each other), I wouldn't say that either is more profound in a musical or spiritual sense.  We aren't comparing an early Beethoven sonata with a late one here, that is!

So this is what it comes down to..... take the well-worn route and learn the 2nd sonata or if you have the guts learn the first.  The return of the main theme in the third movement (after the Dies irae bit) is one of the most exhilariting things Rachmaninoff ever wrote!

[Pronske]

It is a shame that there are so few good recordings of the First Sonata.  There is a good recording by Weissenberg, and a good one by Laredo, but I am not aware of many others.  This is contrast to so many recordings of the Second - Horowitz, Cliburn, Kern, Ogdon, Wild, etc.  I have alway loved the First - especially the middle section of the second movement.

[Etude]

I definately prefer his first to the second, which is why I haven't listened to the second sonata a lot.  When I first heard some of it, I didn't like it, maybe the recording wasn't very clear, but I quite like it now I'm listening to a recording by Ashkenazy.  I still prefer the first sonata, the second seems too thickly textured.

[BoliverAllmon]

I prefer the first . why? don't know just do.

[donjuan]

Well, Im certainly glad to see Im not the only one who prefers the first sonata, but I am a little disappointed at how many people are saying it is more difficult..I was especially scaredd when Nightscape told me how it is as difficult as the concertos other than No. 3...

Well, I listened to recordings again, and no doubt - that first sonata definately has the 'power moments," as dikai_yang says.  I feel, when I listen to the 2nd sonata, that I am waiting for something - like a euphoric chord with the perfect harmony the mind has been searching for since the music started.  However, I find myself disappointed because the moment never seems to come.  This moment comes in the cadenza for the Rach 3, as well as in many of his preludes and Etude- tableaus. 

I am going to talk to my teacher about this first sonata and find out why it is so difficult.  Maybe I should try to play it one day and then Ill realize what you all are on about.

many thanks for your hasty responses.
donjuan

[dikai_yang]

hmm... to rate rachmaninoff 2 sonatas with the concertos (first 3, i've never played the no.4)

from easy to difficult (with consideration of all movements involved...)
1. concerto no. 2
2. sonata no. 2
3. concerto no. 3
4. concerto no. 1
5. sonata no. 1

could it be that his "NO.1's" are all more difficult??
then he had to re-write them to be simpler...
like the sonata no. 2, 1913 is significanly more difficult then 1931....
but then it was critisied (in my opinion because it was too difficult by the standard of that time period, well not that long ago really).  Is it also why people play No. 3 more than No. 1 (concerto)... very interesting indeed...

but the technical standard is so high these days...
participating in concerto competitions, quite a lot of students (high school) play the concerto no. 3.  Musically mature or not, they are certainly technically certified!!

Sonata No. 1 may or may not be musically challenging, that's your choice.  It has a lot of details it depends on whether or not you choose to bring them out...
as a contrast of Sonata No.2, the details, for one, they are too obvious, they have to be there, for two, it's too often performed so we're biased in a way that we want to bring out details the way these performers do)...

[dikai_yang]

i used to be musically active back in high school, after getting into university, my skills seem to have de-evolved because i did not get much time at all to practice...
in grade 12 i competed in the burnaby clef concerto competition with the concerto no.3 3rd movement (didn't win unfortunately), but back then it seemed like everybody played that quite well
won with the first movement in grade 11 in another competition
having done that, i was trying to learn the sonata no. 1 while in university,
didn't have any success, there were many barriers i couldn't overcome...
technical difficulty alone, the sonata no. 1 is just too great...
i didn't find the musical difficulty in any of his concertos though because they "make sense", you just follow the flow, just like pretty much any piece by chopin (you should know what i'm talking about)

[donjuan]

Thank you very much for your input dikai.  Can you tell me more about the "barriers that you couldnt overcome" in the first sonata?  I am looking at the sheetmusic and I dont know what to say.  it doesnt seem all that impossible - a lot going on at the same time and so much to learn to control, but really - is there some secret poison embedded throughout the work that stopped you from finishing it?  Please tell me how far you got before realizing the piece was bigger than you are.
donjuan

[Skeptopotamus]

I don't wanna trample on anyone's opinions here, but really...  I'm not even going to get into the technical difficulty of either because neither is like leaps and bounds above the other, but the Sonata No. 2 is absolutely more difficult musically.  It deals with just sooo many different things, and the interpretive skills needed to play this piece properly are like phenominal.  The Sonata No. 2 is probably the most customizable piece of music ever written just because it's so complex, as opposed to the Sonata No. 1 which is completely straight-forward and extremely rigidly formed, not to mention formulaic.  I used to like the first sonata more, but the second is, in my personal opinion, a better piece of music, but undeniably and not just in my opinion, and ultimately, a much much better and more important piece to learn/have in your repertoire.

[pianomann1984]

Having dipped into both sonatas, I have to say I prefer the 2nd Sonata for its increased maturity in expression and sophistication of Harmony.  The 1st however is way more difficult in my opinion...it's too exposed and not as sentimental - much harder to get into, as well as requiring much more stamina and control (which I dont yet have!), so I will be studying the 2nd first, and may never play the first as it's just too scary!

[thierry13]

Are you all serious there? Wich movement is the hardest in the first sonata? I never found it harder than rach 3...

[pianomann1984]

I think the 1st mvnt of the 1st sonata is fiendish.

[thierry13]

So you think the first movement of the first sonata is harder than any concerto/sonata?

[Etude]

I was going to learn the first, now I see everyone talking about how it's even harder than Rach3... 



I'm still learning it.

[Nightscape]

I just finished listening to both sonatas, and I think I can say with some certainty that I like both equally well.  There are fantastic moments in each of them....


But I still think that the 1st sonata is more of an intimidating piece to learn.


Anyways, have you considered learning the Corelli Variations instead of one of the sonatas?  It's about as lengthy as the 2nd sonata, and still quite difficult (though not as hard as the sonatas).  

[Etude]

I've just begun listening to the Variations on a theme of Corelli again, I like them very much.  The theme begins like Handel's Sarabande in D minor.   

It's amazing what Rachmaninov does with the themes in his variations, like in the paganini rhapsody, in some variations I can barely hear the theme.

[dikai_yang]

ohh.... btw, the way i ranked the pieces is based purely on the technical difficulty while i learned them... it's my belief that musicality is an add-on after you've learned "the notes

i agree with Skeptopotamus that the sonata no. 2 is musically difficult.  however, the good thing is, too many people perform them, pretty much anybody in any competition (well, figuratively speaking) plays the piece, so there's a really well-defined guideline we can follow (suppose you find the easy way out by combining how other people interpret the music and come up with your own)...

however, sonata no. 1, if you study into the music, you'll find too many magical things embedded in the technically difficult passages.  at the intended tempo, it's rather difficult to bring them out musically...

about the difficulty of concerto no. 3, (imagine you haven't learned the piece), when you look at the music, you can follow it through, the notes are there, somewhat difficult (i found that the notes for the 2nd movement is rather a bit more intimidating while you learn), but you know if you can manage it at slow speed, with enough practice, you know you can graduate increase your speed with all the correct notes, musicality aside....  but with sonata no. 1 (throughout all 3 movements, many of you must remember when you worked on ravel's scarbo, it's like that, it's very difficult to even follow the music through... for me i find that scarbo is the most difficult out of these rachmaninoff selections....

musicality... while, russian music is full of very musical moments, but you must agree they are not exact abstract...  not like some contemporary american compositions like rzewski where you may need to study the piece with him to know what's going on...

[dikai_yang]

personally speaking, i think that to perform a concerto well, mozart is more difficult, would any of you agree with me??  simply put, not so many notes, but to get the tone, and to get the mozart quality throughout the piece, is a very very long process...

with rachmaninoff, i'm not saying you can fake things, (i try not to cheat), but if you simply follow through the music, it may sound just right automatically (without the details is okay at this stage)...

[dikai_yang]

to donjuan:
please don't laugh at me when i say this...
the reason why i stopped is rather stupid...
you know, pretty much anything by prokofiev, only the finished product sounds impressive, but while you are learning the notes, it sounds like crap...
i'm like that with no. 1, the finished product is just extraodinary
but in the process of learning, with an originally difficult piece, with all the interesting harmony, mis-played, i sound like an absolute crap...
but then, if it's only a short extremely difficult passage that sounds like crap, that's okay
this.... the entire piece is difficult!!  (2nd and 3rd movements are slightly more acceptable..., the first is not)
so when i practice and hear myself sound like crap from beginning to the end of a very long piece, it's natural to want to put it aside

[dikai_yang]

sorry, one last short post...
for those of you who have seen the music of sonata no. 1 and wonder how can it be harder than a concerto no. 3, try to play ALL the indicated "melody" notes inside and try to make sense of them, while you do that, you'll see...  if you don't bring them out "properly", the piece sounds quite empty and yet chaotic at the same time...

[donjuan]

bumpity bump bump bumpity bump bump

it's been a year since i started this thread; Lets have some more votes from the new users!

Even after such a long time, and after reading about the Experts trashing the first sonata, I just listened to it once again (played by Berezovsky), and it still remains the only piece of music to leave me trembling in my seat at the end.

[pianowolfi]

The return of the main theme in the third movement (after the Dies irae bit) is one of the most exhilariting things Rachmaninoff ever wrote!

Right, right, right!!!!!!!

[panic]

#1 will always be closest to my heart - and perhaps out of all sonatas - because it was one of the first sonatas I've ever listened to on my own; when I got interested in classical Rach was one of the first composers whose music I liked, and so naturally I searched for his sonatas. I remember listening to the first movement over and over again and marveling over such things as the second theme, or the bell-like D-flat section at 7:30, followed by the awesome key switch up to D minor that drops four flats in like one measure completely smoothly; and I listened endless times to the end of the movement, which is still among the most sublime passages of piano music I've heard. I'll be honest, I was scared to listen to the third movement after hearing it the first time. I didn't want to go to the track. The ending was too devastating after hearing the end of the first movement, particularly with the heart-rending Dies-irae-ish section right before it. Eventually I started listening to this movement too and realized the awesome power of it (especially in the buildup to the restatement of the theme halfway through) and it also became one of my all-time favorites. The second movement I still wish I knew like the back of my hand because it's endearingly gorgeous to hear. It's like Rach's Adagietto.

I still don't understand why there haven't been more sonatas like Rach 1 - why someone didn't either think of having the finale longer than the first movement (when both are lengthy, I mean) before Rach or follow the example. I think it's a great idea and mixes it up a little - instead of a fast romp to the finish, the finale can then be epic. The only other lengthy piece I know that transfers the power to the finale like that is Mahler 6 (edit: and Beethoven 9, duh I'm stupid).

To me #2 sounds too much like it's trying to be as good as #1 while also being 20th-centuryish. Particularly in places like the second theme of the first movement, or the last part of the finale, the dramatic gestures seem a little worn and tired, a bit cliche. Whereas the middle movement of #1 is soothing and surreal, the middle movement of #2 has this bluesy element mixed it that in my opinion makes it sound just kind of wistful and shallow. I think that #1 knows exactly what it is, in terms of character, and #2 doesn't quite.

[bella musica]

I know, I'm an ignoramus... I haven't even heard the first one.

I know which one my friend Josh would pick though - he is obsessed with the second sonata.  Actually at the academy we attended together, it sort of became his 'theme song'.  Some of us piano students learned that first run at the beginning and we would play it whenever he walked into the room...  It was hilarious.

[pianowolfi]

#1 will always be closest to my heart - and perhaps out of all sonatas - because it was one of the first sonatas I've ever listened to on my own; when I got interested in classical Rach was one of the first composers whose music I liked, and so naturally I searched for his sonatas. I remember listening to the first movement over and over again and marveling over such things as the second theme, or the bell-like D-flat section at 7:30, followed by the awesome key switch up to D minor that drops four flats in like one measure completely smoothly; and I listened endless times to the end of the movement, which is still among the most sublime passages of piano music I've heard. I'll be honest, I was scared to listen to the third movement after hearing it the first time. I didn't want to go to the track. The ending was too devastating after hearing the end of the first movement, particularly with the heart-rending Dies-irae-ish section right before it. Eventually I started listening to this movement too and realized the awesome power of it (especially in the buildup to the restatement of the theme halfway through) and it also became one of my all-time favorites. The second movement I still wish I knew like the back of my hand because it's endearingly gorgeous to hear. It's like Rach's Adagietto.

I still don't understand why there haven't been more sonatas like Rach 1 - why someone didn't either think of having the finale longer than the first movement (when both are lengthy, I mean) before Rach or follow the example. I think it's a great idea and mixes it up a little - instead of a fast romp to the finish, the finale can then be epic. The only other lengthy piece I know that transfers the power to the finale like that is Mahler 6.

To me #2 sounds too much like it's trying to be as good as #1 while also being 20th-centuryish. Particularly in places like the second theme of the first movement, or the last part of the finale, the dramatic gestures seem a little worn and tired, a bit cliche. Whereas the middle movement of #1 is soothing and surreal, the middle movement of #2 has this bluesy element mixed it that in my opinion makes it sound just kind of wistful and shallow. I think that #1 knows exactly what it is, in terms of character, and #2 doesn't quite.

Panic, you're great!!!!! Do you allow me to quote some of your remarks in my program for my concert with first sonata???

[kriskicksass]

I still don't understand why there haven't been more sonatas like Rach 1 - why someone didn't either think of having the finale longer than the first movement (when both are lengthy, I mean) before Rach or follow the example. I think it's a great idea and mixes it up a little - instead of a fast romp to the finish, the finale can then be epic. The only other lengthy piece I know that transfers the power to the finale like that is Mahler 6.

The idea of shifting weight to the final movement is Beethoven's.

[donjuan]

#1 will always be closest to my heart - and perhaps out of all sonatas - because it was one of the first sonatas I've ever listened to on my own; when I got interested in classical Rach was one of the first composers whose music I liked, and so naturally I searched for his sonatas. I remember listening to the first movement over and over again and marveling over such things as the second theme, or the bell-like D-flat section at 7:30, followed by the awesome key switch up to D minor that drops four flats in like one measure completely smoothly; and I listened endless times to the end of the movement, which is still among the most sublime passages of piano music I've heard. I'll be honest, I was scared to listen to the third movement after hearing it the first time. I didn't want to go to the track. The ending was too devastating after hearing the end of the first movement, particularly with the heart-rending Dies-irae-ish section right before it. Eventually I started listening to this movement too and realized the awesome power of it (especially in the buildup to the restatement of the theme halfway through) and it also became one of my all-time favorites. The second movement I still wish I knew like the back of my hand because it's endearingly gorgeous to hear. It's like Rach's Adagietto.

I still don't understand why there haven't been more sonatas like Rach 1 - why someone didn't either think of having the finale longer than the first movement (when both are lengthy, I mean) before Rach or follow the example. I think it's a great idea and mixes it up a little - instead of a fast romp to the finish, the finale can then be epic. The only other lengthy piece I know that transfers the power to the finale like that is Mahler 6.

To me #2 sounds too much like it's trying to be as good as #1 while also being 20th-centuryish. Particularly in places like the second theme of the first movement, or the last part of the finale, the dramatic gestures seem a little worn and tired, a bit cliche. Whereas the middle movement of #1 is soothing and surreal, the middle movement of #2 has this bluesy element mixed it that in my opinion makes it sound just kind of wistful and shallow. I think that #1 knows exactly what it is, in terms of character, and #2 doesn't quite.

I thought I was the only one who thought this way.  Great post! 


If you havent already, be sure to listen to Mi Jung Im play the first sonata; you can download it here:

https://www.webconcerthall.com/archive/artist/mijung/index.htm

[franz_]

from easy to difficult (with consideration of all movements involved...)
1. concerto no. 2
2. sonata no. 2
3. concerto no. 3
4. concerto no. 1
5. sonata no. 1

Huh?? You think his first concerto and his first sonata are more difficult than his 3d concerto?!

[apion]

No. 1 in d minor

[bflatminor24]

I'm gonna be boring and go with the No. 2 (1931).  No. 2 is like infinitely more difficult musically and also more difficult technically i'd say.

And Rach 1 being the most difficult?  o.O

Hi John 

[brewtality]

Huh?? You think his first concerto and his first sonata are more difficult than his 3d concerto?!

The sonata probably is (it is seriously scary even to look at). The first is my favourite by far, it really ought to be played/recorded more than the second, everyone just likes to jump on the Horowitz bandwagon.

[superstition2]

The poll should have four items:

1. Sonata #1
2. Sonata #2
3. Sonata #2 Rachmaninov cuts
4. Sonata #2 Horowitz version

That is the chronology of his sonatas, and the original version of #2, which is by far the best of his sonatas, is very different from the "revision".

We can only speculate as to Rachmaninov's thoughts concerning the revision. It has been suggested that he revised it because it was so difficult to play. He was an active concert pianist well into old age. There was also the neoclassical direction of his compositional style toward the end. I disagree with Horowitz's assertion that some of the material Rachmaninov cut was mediocre, just as I disagree with his choice to only play the "light" cadenza in the third concerto. Art is subjective, and while I feel Horowitz was a genius, I don't believe his vision of Rachmaninov's music was perfect. I prefer Rachmaninov's playing on the third, and wish it didn't have the terrible cuts and the light cadenza.

Anyone who wants to judge the 2nd sonata must listen to Ashkenazy's recording of the original version. One simply can't judge the piece based only on performances of the Rachmaninov cut version or the Horowitz version.

I think the 1st sonata is excellent, but the final movement, like that of Chopin's 3rd, is a bit tedious.