The best way to play "Fur Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata" by Beethoven.

[vladimirdounin]

Preamble from November 18, 2006:

In July 2005 I informed members of this forum that I am using some very simple signs and numbers to indicate: which note in the score should be played louder (stressed), and which note should be softened.

I am using unknown to the majority of musicians yet  “micro-dynamics alphabet”. It consists (interesting coincidence) of 7 letters or (notes, if this name is better).
Exactly like 7 notes of our scale and 7 colors of the rainbow.
These letters – notes are : -3’, -2’, -1’, 0’, +1’, +2’, +3’.
I print them: +1’,+2’,+3’ above and -1’, -2’, -3’ below each note that I want to explain to my student (how exactly it should be played).

PLEASE, NOTE: I do it only AFTER my student heard from me a few versions of the same section played by me live, and TOOK HIS/HER (not my) DECISION: which version he/she loves most. Each of them has the full right to modify anything in my performance (and in notation of this version, of course). I only lead them to THEIR IDEAL by the shortest and most reliable way. Do not tell anybody to me, that I am forcing my students to play MY way! I do not want to hear this statement again and again.


These letters are completely enough to describe ANY events of ANY  line of notes (melody, tenor, bass – no matter).

0’ is Normal, Regular Note for given section of music. This means that 0’ in ff, mP or pp section are absolutely different according to indications of dynamics. However, gradations between 0’ and +1’, or 0” and -1’ are still the same, just one degree.
1’ = One Degree of Difference in Notes Intensity is THE SMALLEST DIFFERENCE THAT WE CAN FEEL.

Why only 7 degrees, not 23 or 56 then? The reason is that I never heard from any DECENT pianist bigger difference than these 7 degrees. Beyond these 7 will be the music that is “not for gentlemen” but for wild people.   

I and all my students, including very beginners, can tell this about any note in the score, even looking at the score very first time, without playing. It is possible, because all the “stresses” and “softenings” of the notes are not accidental or arbitrary. They are determined by the logic of musical line (horizontal and vertical) in accordance with some very simple and logical rules.

This technique gives wonderful results instantly. The most difficult students immediately start to play beautifully and get reports about their “exceptional musicality” , etc. Because EVERYONE can play as the best professionals do (the piece he/she is able to play, of course), if  he/she knows: what exactly these professionals do, how exactly they play these notes?

I was expecting that in this way I will receive a very important for any musician opportunity: to exchange our thoughts and opinions regarding our beloved art. I was expecting that many musicians of the planet will open their “professional secrets” and all of us will benefit from this new knowledge about our “kitchen”: how exactly do we “cook” our music?

  However, many of my opponents just stated something like that I am not a human but just a machine, if I know “temperature” of each note. ("Temperature" - this  is another, shorter name of Fine Indication Of Relative Note Intensity. Please, do not confuse  with “dynamics”: "dynamics" is about “total volume” of all notes played at the given time).

Now I have made some recordings in MP3 format. I invite all my supporters and opponents to listen to my “Fur Elise”, "My Way"  and “Russian – Japanese – Canadian folk song” in "Audition Room".
I do not think that they are perfect, of course,  but everyone can judge, if I really do play like machine or not.

If somebody will be interested – I can post here “temperature” – Fine Indication Of each Note Relative Intensity for this popular piece. Everyone will be able to play this song exactly the same way or better (my students always play better than myself, because I can correct them, and they do not correct me. Do it, please, I will appreciate!)

I invite my opponents to post their interpretation of “Fur Elise”. In this way it will be clearer: whose conception is more “machine like”.

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin.

November 18. 2006





My performing and teaching work is based on accurate indication of Note Strength. Without playing, just at the first time looking at any score any my student or choir member (my other work – chorus master at opera) can say about each note whether one should be played louder or softer in relation to the previous and the following note, and by how much.

It is extremely important knowledge because the right or wrong stressing and softening of notes is the only difference between the best and the worst pianist in the world. All of us play the same notes on the same beat, and speed (in spite of mass obsession) eventually does not matter (listen to Horowitz).

We just follow some simple and easy “Dynamics Rules” and it saves a lot of time and energy. In ONE lesson time I can teach anybody to play the piece (s/he is able to play, of course) as the best professionals play. All the students of any level receive inevitably excellent marks (“for exceptional musicality”) at any exam or competition, as soon as they have learned 25-30 basic rules. Quite often mere following these rules improves technique dramatically (this happened recently to my student in 2nd Scherzo by Chopin, she amazed adjudicators with “ultra fine finger work” in the C# minor episode, at the beginning she could not play the 2nd voice at all). A majority of these rules are well known and followed by all good musicians, but the problem is that the rules have never been published altogether in one book, and they are still scattered in many sources. Therefore it is very important and useful to exchange our knowledge with other musicians.   

I am gathering and testing these rules for more than 40 years (test considered “passed” if nobody can show me the music, where this rule is not applicable). Unfortunately, after I moved to America, I can not find here anybody with whom I can discuss my concerns regarding dynamics, phrasing, articulation etc. People around me say that they have never heard about any musical rules and laws, instead, they just “self-express themselves in the way they want and feel” (could you imagine – they do it in the music of Bach or Mozart?). Judging from my experience as an adjudicator, this “self-expression” instead of knowledge of basics of music is a real problem for teaching nowadays. Sometimes I even hear the proud words: “I think in phrases in music and I teach to think in phrases. I do not care what they are made of”. Would you like to learn English from a teacher who knows only phrases without understanding of words? Will you learn phrasebook instead of dictionary? Music is just one of human’s languages, rules are the same.

 The Scientific Acoustic Research Laboratory of Moscow Conservatory does not work at this time, and I do not know which Western software can be used to display or print (in Disklavier 124 degrees scale) Note Strength of each particular note. This is a very effective and convenient way to discover “artistic secrets” of your favourite pianists, if visual information about timing and strength of each note in their recording is available. (Fortunately, almost everything in Piano Repertoire is recorded today digitally by “Disklavier” and the best performers, so we have a lot to choose from).

I will be very glad to hear from or about somebody who knows “what musical phrases are made of” and wants to share or exchange with me useful rules or can suggest the best ways to perform. I will appreciate the information regarding software as well.

Today my concern is in the very first bars of “For Elise” by Beethoven. Which notes of the melody E-D#-E-D#-E-B-D-C-A   C-E-A-B  E-G#-B-C should be stressed, played stronger than regular ones (you can mark them with “+” or ”++ “or “+++” depending on Note Strength), which should be softened (mark can be “-“, “- - “ , or “---“)  and which notes are just regular (not stressed, not softened – no mark needed or mark “0” can be used).

For example, E+,  D# , E+++, D#--, E+, B---, D+, C-, A+++ ( I hope that nobody plays like this, of course. It is just an ugly example).

Another my concern is in the very first bars of “Moonlight sonata” by Beethoven.
Which notes of the melody G# G#G#   G#G#G#   A G#F# B E       should be stressed, played stronger than regular ones?
(Stressed notes can be marked with “+” or ”++ “or “+++”, the more pluses – the louder).

Which ones should be softened (marks can be “-“, “- - “ , or “---“) ?

Which notes are just regular (not stressed, not softened – no mark needed or mark “0” can be used)? The differences between # and ##, between - and -- , between  0 and #   equal 1 degree. (One degree is THE SMALLEST difference in volume between two notes that we can hear).

For example, G#, G#--, G#++ ,      G#+, G#, G+++    A,  G#++,  F#++, B, E+++ ( I hope that nobody plays like this, of course).

I will appreciate any opinion expressed.  Vladimir.

[gorbee natcase]

I think you shold write a book and cash in

[vaiva]

Vladimir, it's really interesting, what are you talking about. I can say ,that I agree with you, even if usually I don't think about the rules during practising and play from intuition. I really would like to know more about your methods and music rules, that you have discovered.
So I will try to do that you asked:
G# G# G#+   G# G# G#+  A++ G#+++ F#++ B+ E

PS. It's dificult to me think in this way, even if last month i played this sonata in my exam. After reading your post I went to me piano in order to look, how did I play. And actually, that was very difficult to decide, which note is stong, which is not and ect. And I'm not sure if I really played in this way.... but....
I'm really wonder that do you think.


 

[shoshin]

I play the first part all flat fingered. I feel i can get some extra feel this way and since there  is alot of stretches in this piece you might as well get used to playing it all flat fingered.

In terms of stressing notes well there is really three things going on.  The big bass line with the left hand which is mostly held octaves. Second the constantly flowing melody that should be uninterrupted. And finally the "lead" part which uses notes from the constantly flowing melody but you use dynamics to bring it out by playing it louder.

Its a really creative setup in my opinion. Beethoven definitely isn't a piano player as much as he is a composer because this piece has no regards for the human hand. Some really hard stretching going on. I think Beethoven just thinks about the sound/music he wants to create and doesn't care how awkward the the mechanics of playing its going to be.

In terms of your question about the flowing melody 123 123 123 123. That part and your question is which note to use more dynamics? If you dont want to play them all at the same dynamic play the first note of the of the 3 notes slightly louder and go down. Its supposed to be like "moonlight on the water" so probably wave-like effect.  I wish I knew more music lingo to explain this better. Trust your ears.

[shoshin]

All the students of any level receive inevitably excellent marks (“for exceptional musicality”) at any exam or competition, as soon as they have learned 25-30 basic rules.

LOL only 25-30 rules? And if you memorize these and regugitate them on an exam you  have "exceptional musicality"...for an ape?

I'm not sure what it is with alot of these serious classical pianists. I hardly want to even call them musicians. If your entire goal is to just to be able to play a memorized piece following strict rules and guildlines, and following the score note for note.  You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it.

Hell why not just call yourselves "Robots". I dont even see how you could get enjoyment out of playing music this way.  With your rules and regulations. Bah.

[ramseytheii]

It's a very fascinating topic, but I wonder, do you apply such a notation system to all the notes in the score, or just the melody?  When it comes down to it such a technique seems above all to be about visualisation, and also turning varoius vaguenesses into solid thinking.  We've got to avoid flip-flopping after all - as they say.


Walter Ramsey

[happyface94]

Instead of thinking notes, think as a whole? I mean thats what I always did.

[ramseytheii]

Instead of thinking notes, think as a whole? I mean thats what I always did.

That's what the original poster is protesting against, and probably with good reason.  After all there is a constant balance we have to achieve, between bird-s eye view and worm's eye view.  And definitely can the bird swallow the worm, if you know what I mean.
I think it is good to ask, is this note here, stronger than the previous, or even, how does it relate to the note that comes four notes before?  Yes, I think that is extremely important.  It's one of those secrets of music that cannot be notated, and that has to be discovered.  I wonder about this method in particular, which seems over-detailed, but I agree in principle.

Walter Ramsey

[pianohopper]

There is no good way to play the Adagio of the Moonlight sonata.  Put it down at once!  (dammit where's the icon for puking my guts out ekk it's like a game of baseball, five minutes of excitement packed into 3 hrs....

probably the most overplayed boring song in the history of music... the 3rd movement is so much more interesting.

[vladimirdounin]

I think you shold write a book and cash in

Thank you! I am not good in English and computer. Maybe we can do it together?

Yours Sincerely,

Vladimir Dounin

[vladimirdounin]

Vladimir, it's really interesting, what are you talking about. I can say ,that I agree with you, even if usually I don't think about the rules during practising and play from intuition. I really would like to know more about your methods and music rules, that you have discovered.
So I will try to do that you asked:
G# G# G#+   G# G# G#+  A++ G#+++ F#++ B+ E

PS. It's dificult to me think in this way, even if last month i played this sonata in my exam. After reading your post I went to me piano in order to look, how did I play. And actually, that was very difficult to decide, which note is stong, which is not and ect. And I'm not sure if I really played in this way.... but....
I'm really wonder that do you think.


 Dear Vaiva,

Thank you very much for your worm words. Please have a look at my article on this site but in "Teaching" Forum.

Somebody moved "me" from performers to teachers. I am not happy with this. Music Teachers usually are not interested to know anything that does not make money immediately. Performers, on the contrary, are looking for any new information eagerly - because their life depends on ability to play in enjoable way and attract audience. I know it because I am both: and teacher and concert performer.

If you will not find the answer in my latest production "Congratulations! We have made history" - please, let me know.

With best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin.

[/color]

[vladimirdounin]

I play the first part all flat fingered. I feel i can get some extra feel this way and since there  is alot of stretches in this piece you might as well get used to playing it all flat fingered.

In terms of stressing notes well there is really three things going on.  The big bass line with the left hand which is mostly held octaves. Second the constantly flowing melody that should be uninterrupted. And finally the "lead" part which uses notes from the constantly flowing melody but you use dynamics to bring it out by playing it louder.

Its a really creative setup in my opinion. Beethoven definitely isn't a piano player as much as he is a composer because this piece has no regards for the human hand. Some really hard stretching going on. I think Beethoven just thinks about the sound/music he wants to create and doesn't care how awkward the the mechanics of playing its going to be.

In terms of your question about the flowing melody 123 123 123 123. That part and your question is which note to use more dynamics? If you dont want to play them all at the same dynamic play the first note of the of the 3 notes slightly louder and go down. Its supposed to be like "moonlight on the water" so probably wave-like effect.  I wish I knew more music lingo to explain this better. Trust your ears.

Dear Shoshin,

I would like to invite you to read my congratulations to you  and all the rest of us. Unfortunately, somebody moved my article from "Performers" to "Teachers" forum on this site. Teachers, in my opinion, will not be interested, rather irritated with my innovations. My next article is called "Congratulations! We have made history"

Thanks for your reply.

Yours Sincerely,

Vladimir Dounin[/color]

[vladimirdounin]

LOL only 25-30 rules? And if you memorize these and regugitate them on an exam you  have "exceptional musicality"...for an ape?

ANSWER
[i]You do not need to read 20-30 boring Traffic Rules if you want just to “self-express” yourself as a driver on highway. You need them only to avoid costly bills from the court and the hospital.

You do not need to learn 20-30 boring rules of debuts and endings for playing chess as well. You need them only if you want to win.

You do not need to learn Grammar (super-boring 200 -300 rules of the language) if you want just to speak any foreign language, unless you want to be understood. And so on…

Having Street Map in your pocket does not turn you into a an ape or “robot”, you can even use shortcuts that no map displays, but the map just prevents you from getting lost. Knowing of 20-30 "Rules of Musical Safety" does not stop you from playing better (if you know how to do it); it simple gives you an insurance against shameful, ugly way to perform beautiful music.[/i]


I'm not sure what it is with alot of these serious classical pianists. I hardly want to even call them musicians. If your entire goal is to just to be able to play a memorized piece following strict rules and guildlines, and following the score note for note.  You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it.

Hell why not just call yourselves "Robots". I dont even see how you could get enjoyment out of playing music this way.  With your rules and regulations. Bah


ANSWER

Judging from the Oxford and Harvard Musical dictionaries, Van Cliburn and Radu Lupu definitely can NOT be considered serious pianists. However, if  tonight you will post in any public place one single ad about Cliburn’s concert (in any city of Russia), the next morning it will be already sold out. People were standing in queue on the street for a few years to get ticket and enjoy not perfect but hearts and souls touching music of “Vanechka” (Cliburn’s nickname in Russia) we, students, and pensioners made a good pocket money substituting the people in this queue.

On the other hand, I have watched many concerts of “undoubtedly the best pianists of the world” (if the “New-York Times” did not joke). In one concert hall I saw even a humourous gallery of 37 “kings of all pianists of the universe” (according to the same source) that played in this hall in the last 4 years. All of these concerts started overcrowded, but after 20 minutes of “royal performing” only a few spectators could be still seen on some seats: because they fell asleep despite of the price of the tickets.

I can not be objective in judgements regarding Radu Lupu because I, like all the rest of his schoolmates, already adored him when he was not famous yet – he delivered us from really the boring training in the “right positions of the hand”, “proper touch”, etc. He destroyed the whole official conception of piano method brilliantly, once and forever. No one professor dared to restore it again for our class in the conservatory after this incident. I can only witness that music lessons in Toronto quite often are cancelled on the dates of Radu Lupu’s concerts, because many teachers, students and their parents have bought the tickets.

Regarding comments on my “over-detailed” approach I would like to put some questions:

1. Some artist wishes to paint your portrait and invites you to choose which size of the painting brush he should use for this work.
What is your choice: the smallest brush that he has or the biggest, available from Home Depot?

2. You are going to buy a new car. The manufacturer gives you option to buy it much cheaper but “as a whole” (“as a whole” means that not all of the small details of the car are checked or adjusted). Will you catch this opportunity?

3. You have to choose a new printer. Which Resolution Rate would you prefer – 240 dots per inch or 24 000 dots per inch?

Why must we have different attitude towards MY face, MY car, MY printer and MY playing of the Beethoven’s sonata? What is more valuable for our audience: the right adjustment of all the details of the immortal music or of my car? Let us be honest in our relations with “our customers”- our audience, as well as with the greatest composers, who in heavens expect from us decent representations of themselves through their music.   

[/color][/color]

[vladimirdounin]

It's a very fascinating topic, but I wonder, do you apply such a notation system to all the notes in the score, or just the melody?  When it comes down to it such a technique seems above all to be about visualisation, and also turning varoius vaguenesses into solid thinking.  We've got to avoid flip-flopping after all - as they say.


Walter Ramsey

Yes, it is exactly about  the visualisation. Seeing is believing, isn't it? Each my student can write Note Strength (individual note volume) for each note of any score. However, they do not memorize them, of course, it is simply impossible to know Note Strength for each note, but it is very possible to understand their logic instead.

 I never teach anybody to play in the way I like to play self. I just copy my student's play (using Note Strength gives to everyone ability to copy any performance with high accuracy) and ask s/he to compare it with another (my own) variant. Students never know: the first or the second variant was my favourite - I do my best playing both of them. After they chose the best one, I ask them: what was the difference? They say. I ask them:which mistake did I make? Why you did not like another variant? Here they list for me the rules which I had broken.

This approach not only delivers us from flip-flopping, it increases speed (tempo) as well. "If you want to do something well and fast, you have do decide before, what you will not do". Perfect knowledge gives confidence, it allows us to increase the speed. Uncertainty slows us in any business.

Look, please, at my "Congratulations! We have made history" in "Teachers" department of this site.

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin.

[vladimirdounin]

Instead of thinking notes, think as a whole? I mean thats what I always did.

Regarding comments on my “over-detailed” approach etc. I would like to put some questions:

1. Some artist wishes to paint your portrait and invites you to choose which size of the painting brush he should use for this work.
What is your choice: the smallest brush that he has or the biggest, available from Home Depot?

2. You are going to buy a new car. The manufacturer gives you option to buy it much cheaper but “as a whole” (“as a whole” means that not all of the small details of the car are checked or adjusted). Will you catch this opportunity?

3. You have to choose a new printer. Which Resolution Rate would you prefer – 240 dots per inch or 24 000 dots per inch?

Why must we have different attitude towards MY face, MY car, MY printer and MY playing of the Beethoven’s sonata? What is more valuable for our audience: the right adjustment of all the details of the immortal music or of my car? Let us be honest in our relations with “our customers”- our audience, as well as with the greatest composers, who in heavens expect from us decent representations of themselves through their music. 

Good luck!

Vladimir Dounin

[lostinidlewonder]

We just follow some simple and easy “Dynamics Rules” and it saves a lot of time and energy. In ONE lesson time I can teach anybody to play the piece (s/he is able to play, of course) as the best professionals play.

I find understanding music is a lot more than just where to play loud or softer or faster or slower. Understanding it musically takes a lot of listening, playing a section many times until one is revealed the way to play it, a decision made from musical choices but also emotional choices which takes time to develop. There is no way to reveal an entire piece to a student in one lesson, you can discuss a lot about it, but you cannot take them through the exact way to go through everything so that they play as high as the best professionals in the world. They are th ebest in the world because of life experience and knowledge of their art, not just their control of volume and tempo.

The Scientific Acoustic Research Laboratory of Moscow Conservatory does not work at this time, and I do not know which Western software can be used to display or print (in Disklavier 124 degrees scale) Note Strength of each particular note. This is a very effective and convenient way to discover “artistic secrets” of your favourite pianists, if visual information about timing and strength of each note in their recording is available. (Fortunately, almost everything in Piano Repertoire is recorded today digitally by “Disklavier” and the best performers, so we have a lot to choose from).

I think trying to find the exact Note strength of what you play is being crazy. It is like looking at the leaves in a forest and trying to understand the entire forest that way.

As Chopin says.

[“No one notices inequality in the power of the notes of a scale when it is played very fast... The aim is not to play everything with an equal sound, but to acquire a beautiful quality of touch and a perfect shading of sound. For a long time players have acted against nature in seeking to give equal power to each finger. On the contrary, each finger should have an appropriate part assigned it ... There are, many different qualities of sound, just as there are several fingers. The point is to utilize the differences; and this, in other words, is the art of fingering.”]

In fingering, he doesnt only mean what finger to use in the scale, but what more importantly how the fingers should feel to produce the desired sound? In this resides two complementary factors: refinement of the ear and physical control/relaxation while playing the keyboard.

Refinement of the ear is a life long process. If one can produce many sounds with the fingers but is not initially consciously aware of how/when/why to utilise this in the music, there are problems. I say consciously aware because once pieces are memorised we tend to play without conscious effort about which keys to strike and how, we listen to the music rather than follow logical thought like this note louder, now this note.

We need to initially make an initial conscious analysis of the music and then forget about it. If there are errors and problems later on when we study the piece again, we have to then fall back to the conscious analysis stage of the music, understand the touch and sound quailty, then forget about it again. Bridging this connection between what you hear from within and how you physically bring that into your playing is a critical element.

This then asks, what do you hear from within, how would you conduct the piece to be played? The sheet music doesn't tell you everything, a lot of the time we are left to our own imagination. 

["A well-formed technique, it seems to me, is one that can control and vary a beautiful sound quality.”]

This is really the fundamental point of which all Chopin's pianistic technique rests on. The singing voice, the 'breath' of the music, the tempo/volume natural voice movement. One must be aware of which note acts as this voice and which notes support it in the music. For example in Bach as notes run up the keyboard we tend to get louder, and when it comes down we tend to get softer. This is the natural volume movement of the music, not in all cases, but this is only one general sound quality we should be aware of.

Liszt illustrates the same idea but directs the student to focusing on their physical touch of the keyboard:

 ['All technique originates in the art of touch and returns to it.”]

Here Liszt is saying whatever devices we have to come up with to tackle parts of the music that we learn, it all comes back to, how are we going to strike the note to get the desired sound? Saying that it returns to it, highlights the need to always re-analyse your music. This is where your technique originates from, but doesn't live off, so once you have experiment with the music, memorised it and then let it settle within you for a while, you have then eventually return to the question of touch, how did you play a particaular section and look at that in isolation and under conscious invesigation once more.

You must investigate new sound ideas or more effective/efficient physical playing methods. It will benefit you techinque if you always return to the question of how you play a section physically, how do you touch the keys and why is it done that way.

The art of touch is also a never ending search for perfection in piano playing. It is not needed for general playing but to achieve the highest form of playing you have to master an art of touch which I do suggest may also mean; what does the hand naturally tends to do in given situation. How do we utilise and train this natural tendancy, do we go against it to produce some different sound, or support a natural tendancy for pianistic ease of play. How will we use this with respect to the context of the piece and also what is the most physically efficient way to do it.

So i do feel it is a great deal more to piano playing than just knowing where to get louder or softer, faster or slower. If that was it, everyone would be masters at this instrument which luckily is not a fact.

[JPRitchie]

Dear Vladimir,

    I've never seen a score in which Beethoven indicated the emphases you describe. In fact, all the scores I've seen have the 123 123 123 line without any differentiation in accent between the notes. So, I conclude that Beethoven, having achieved contemperaneous as well as lasting critical and popular acclaim for reducing his musical ideas to ink spots, wrote down very close to what he intended, and the notes are to be played evenly.  And, in any case, the line is "pp", so there's not a lot of dynamic room for accents.

    Now, if you wish to play G#(++) C#(+) E, is this not your individual interpretation? Are you suggesting that your interpretation is somehow more correct or is in some way improved over that imagined by Beethoven or, for that matter, by anyone else ? Your teaching techniques certainly may be highly individual, but it's Beethoven's Op. 27, No.2.

Regards,
Jim Ritchie

[vladimirdounin]

Dear Vladimir,

    I've never seen a score in which Beethoven indicated the emphases you describe. .....
    Now, if you wish to play G#(++) C#(+) E, is this not your individual interpretation?.......
 Your teaching techniques certainly may be highly individual, but it's Beethoven's Op. 27, No.2.

Regards,
Jim Ritchie

ANSWER

Dear Mr.Jim Ritchie,

Thank you very much for your concern. I DO NOT PLAY AND TEACH, of course,  like it is printed as example in my post. It is just a joke! I wrote then that I hope that nobody plays like this. I wanted to encourage my readers to write their suggestions, because nothing can be worse than I posted as a sample, and any of their suggestion would look better.

Why I did this? You can read the answer in the TEACHING forum of this site (somebody moved me to this Forum and many people are confused now. My post in "TEACHING" department of this forum is titled "CONGRATS, WE HAVE MADE HISTORY."

Thanks ones more,

Vladimir Dounin

[vladimirdounin]

I find understanding music is a lot more than just where to play loud or softer or faster or slower. Understanding it musically takes a lot of listening, playing a section many times until one is revealed the way to play it, a decision made from musical choices but also emotional choices which takes time to develop...

ANSWER

You are absolutely right, but your understanding will result in only more appropriate timing- and dynamics- relations between your notes. What else can be changed in piano music? - Nothing.

Vladimir Dounin

There is no way to reveal an entire piece to a student in one lesson, you can discuss a lot about it,  but you cannot take them through the exact way to go through everything so that they play as high as the best professionals in the world. They are the best in the world because of life experience and knowledge of their art, not just their control of volume and tempo.

[u]ANSWER[/u]

There is a wonderful way to do so, I can do it  and you can do it also! I posted my next article to explain this way for everyone (see "CONGRATS! WE HAVE MADE HISTORY" in "TEACHING" department of this forum). You are absolutely right that one needs life experience and knowledge of the art to create anything new in the art. But it is 100 times easier to make just a copy of somebody's great work. To write a new good poem one needs a years of work, but to make just a COPY of this poem takes a  few seconds.  A lot of fake Rembrands, Raphaels, Leonardo da Vincis are sold for crazy money on auctions and people were happy to pay money, they did not notice the difference.

My students do not become a real professionals in one hour, of course. They only play like professionals, they copy the best pianists with good accuracy. It is only a teaching method for solving of some particular problems in their technique. However, anyone improves his/her own skills when s/he copies the greatest artists. Maybe one day the modest  "copy maker" will create something important in the art too.

I did not say that I can teach the entire piece in one lesson (for example, 41 page of "Islamey").
But it is not a problem to make a few bars (at least) of very high quality with any student. It gives the student a strong confidence that s/he can do the same and to the rest bars of this piece at home. The most important is that  they can apply the same rules to any piece (that they will have to play) in the future, e.g. "Do not accent the first note in any slur", "Do not accent the first note in a group of notes (single short note has different rules) after the long note or after the rest", "Do not play resolution louder than conflict note" etc...)

I think trying to find the exact Note strength of what you play is being crazy. It is like looking at the leaves in a forest and trying to understand the entire forest that way.

ANSWER
I think not trying to find the exact Note Strength of what you play is much more being crazy. It is like looking at entire forest without understanding that it consists of trees, branches and leaves. Some bad painters are too lazy to draw separate trees and branches, so they just make green spot instead. If somebody like this - it is not me.

Thank you very much for wonderful quotations from Chopin. For me they just support each my word that I posted. I will analize them later. Now I am late to my students.

Thanks ones more,

Yours Sincerely

Vladimir Dounin

[/color]

[JPRitchie]

Hi Vladimir,

      We have some differences, but also some things in common. I'll comment further in your thread in the Teaching partition.

Regards,
Jim

[vladimirdounin]

Liszt illustrates the same idea but directs the student to focusing on their physical touch of the keyboard:

 ['All technique originates in the art of touch and returns to it.”]
 

You must investigate new sound ideas or more effective/efficient physical playing methods. It will benefit you techinque if you always return to the question of how you play a section physically, how do you touch the keys and why is it done that way.

The art of touch is also a never ending search for perfection in piano playing. It is not needed for general playing but to achieve the highest form of playing you have to master an art of touch ...

ANSWER

Thank you very much for fery interesting and informative quotations. Unfortunately, some of these statements are completely outdated and do not correspond to the reality.

Today each of us can visit the closest "Yamaha" Piano shop and try to play and make recording on "Disklavier".  "Disklavier" is a normal (not electronic) concert- or cabinet- piano with the computer that can play back MECHANICALLY (not just from digital recordindg) on the same piano that you played. And it does on the keys exactly the same that you did. Now it is a generally excepted and scientifically proved fact that "Disklavier" really plays back a perfect copy of original performance, no difference at all.

However Disklavier "knows" only 3 things: Pitch (wich note was played), Timing and individual  Volume of each note (they describe it like "Velocity of the hammer"). And that is all.

"Disklavier"  DOES NOT know anything about your "art of touch", it even has no sensors for anything like that. This fact proves that all popular talkings about "magic of touch", "internal plastic of hand","emotional wave from heart to the string" etc. are just meaningless superstitions, a traditional "religion" of many music teachers but not a serious knowledge.

I know, of course that different movements of our arm and hand have an influence on our music. However it happens simply because all our different movements of arm and hand change the relations in timing and volume between the notes. Many great pianists said in different words the same idea: "There is absolutely no difference in the quality of one single note, whoever played this single note and in which way s/he did it. The difference starts from two notes, because they have already some relations between them".

Many years ago the leading specialist of the former USSR in piano teaching, professor Alexeyev (author of many scientific works on this subject and text books for students)had  tried to teach our group of pianists: "what is the right way to touch piano and produce a high quality sound from a single note".

He  had noticed that students were not serious and some of them were even giggling. He responded in a very decisive way. He took a list of all students and started a real test: who knows and who does not know the proper "art of touch". Everybody had to play one single note "properly".  There were at least 20 winners of international competitions among our group (43 people) at that time ("Tschaikovsky", Brussel, Paris , Lidce etc. higly prestigeous piano competitions). However no one of the winners of these competitions could "play one single note properly". The last one was the famous (now) pianist  Radu Lupu. He really tried his best but failed as well and Prof. Alexeyev shouted to him and all the rest: "You are already 3 years in the best conservatory of the world, but no one of you still can play one single note!"

In response, Radu Lupu oppened randomly taken by chance book and played (sight reading) the exposition of the fifth (C Minor) Sonata  by Beethoven in absolutely stunning way. Then he stood up and shouted back to the professor: "We can play!". After these words he left the room.

After 5 minutes of complete silence Prof. Alexeyev said to us in a half voice: "Yes, you CAN play". We never heard again about "the proper way to play one single note" after this incident.

Vladimir Dounin.

[lostinidlewonder]

I don't see how it is outdated to always consider how you are actually "touching" the notes. This is the physical aspect of our art which we always aim to perfect.

I know, of course that different movements of our arm and hand have an influence on our music. However it happens simply because all our different movements of arm and hand change the relations in timing and volume between the notes. Many great pianists said in different words the same idea: "There is absolutely no difference in the quality of one single note, whoever played this single note and in which way s/he did it. The difference starts from two notes, because they have already some relations between them".

ANSWER
You realise different movements effect music, so we target our movement, we target what is the most efficient way to play a passage. How can we keep our hands totally relaxed even if we are playing wild sections. This is the art of touch. To play everything effortlessly but maintain the quality of sound. So don't go saying this is outdated because it is definatly not.



There is a big difference in the quality of one single note. If you forget about the piano for a second and think about the human voice. All of the voices produce a particular unique sound. But with a piano now we may fall into the trap in thinking, well it is one instrument, all physical factors are constant, so whoever plays one note you would never be able to tell the difference. If you ask the best pianist in the world and a beginner to play the first note in the LH of say... Satie's Gymnopedie. The intensity and the way the note is caressed by the hand, just this single note, sets up the entire basis for the rest of the music to follow. So there would be an ideal first sounding note for this piece and one would be able to identify differences even in this opening note.

Of course there needs to be context. You can't just play a random note without reason, then one simply cannot tell the difference because we have no music to connect it to. If you want to be scientific like which has no reason in creating music.

[andhow04]

I don't see how it is outdated to always consider how you are actually "touching" the notes. This is the physical aspect of our art which we always aim to perfect.

ANSWER
You realise different movements effect music, so we target our movement, we target what is the most efficient way to play a passage. How can we keep our hands totally relaxed even if we are playing wild sections. This is the art of touch. To play everything effortlessly but maintain the quality of sound. So don't go saying this is outdated because it is definatly not.



There is a big difference in the quality of one single note. If you forget about the piano for a second and think about the human voice. All of the voices produce a particular unique sound. But with a piano now we may fall into the trap in thinking, well it is one instrument, all physical factors are constant, so whoever plays one note you would never be able to tell the difference. If you ask the best pianist in the world and a beginner to play the first note in the LH of say... Satie's Gymnopedie. The intensity and the way the note is caressed by the hand, just this single note, sets up the entire basis for the rest of the music to follow. So there would be an ideal first sounding note for this piece and one would be able to identify differences even in this opening note.

Of course there needs to be context. You can't just play a random note without reason, then one simply cannot tell the difference because we have no music to connect it to. If you want to be scientific like which has no reason in creating music.

I've been wanting to write this post for quite a long time, partly because it bothers me so much, and partly because it comes up in almost every pianist's daily life. This seems like the right opportunity.  There is so much on my mind, so a lot of this will seem like incoherent ramble - I hope you can piece it together, and please excuse the poor writing.

Since the beginning of our study, pianists are constantly taught to emulate a non-percussive instrument, particularly but not limited to the human voice or the violin - in fact, much of every teacher's goal is to successfully create some sort of aural illusion to display that the piano is anything but a percussion instrument. Pianists like Radu Lupu, Claude Frank, etc. are forever praised for their 'miraculous tone' and 'deep singing quality', as if it were some type of black magic.

Students today, though it seems, have gone heavily overboard in mythicizing the instrument. How many times have you seen someone at the piano contorting her elbow, arm, and wrist in every which direction at the top of a lyrical line in a desperate attempt to 'sing' or produce a 'better tone'? How many times have you been told to have a "less harsh" or "fatter" sound on those D-flat major chords in the Tchaikovsky? How many times have you been told to sing on the piano, often through one single note, an obvious physical impossibility?

I hate to de-mythicize the piano in such a Carl Saganesque manner, but I can't stand the Buddhist and surreal approach to producing tone any longer. Claude Frank is the master of tone not because he possess an unworldly and intangible magic to the instrument, but simply because he understands the physics of the piano in a way we could only dream of. Have you ever seen him (or Radu Lupu, or whoever) twist his arm to help out his melody?

I played for a masterclass for a teacher  who truly believed that depending on the way you played a single note (sans pedal, mind you), you could control the 'tone' and even how the 'tone carries through the hall'. I thought to myself then that this guy is f***g psycho, but sad to say, it seems as though at least 80% of the piano students in the hall seemed to buy his crock of b****t! I want to try and clear this up right now.

At the very basic level of the piano, it IS a percussion instrument. When you press a key down (without pedal), a hammer hits a string, releases the damper, and then immediately puts the damper back down. It is more akin to hitting a bass drum. Now think of the variables in terms of physics: when you hit a key (one single note), there is no such thing as "speed of attack" to determine the "harshness" or "quality of sound" of that given note. NO! There is only one variable, and that is volume. The ONLY thing you can control on that given note, by your speed of attack, is the volume of that note. NOTHING ELSE. Face it. If you isolate just one given note, there is no harshness or fatness or anythingness to that note - just the amount of volume. If someone tells you it's harsh, what he's really saying is it's loud.

Try it yourself. Hit middle C on the piano. Now change the speed of attack. Do whatever you want to this middle C. Play it with your nose. Play it with your foot. Change your wrist movements on it. Change your elbow movements. I guarantee you - nothing is changing in the sound except one thing: the volume of that middle C. Trust me. Whatever you hear differently is an aural lie, self-configured in your own convuluted mind.

If you still don't believe me (which I know a lot of you don't, and I really do feel sorry for you), take a friend. Close their eyes, turn them away from the piano. Now hit that middle C 10 times and change the way hit it. See if that friend can tell which ones are different. If your friend has any sort of brain at all, he/she will notice that only one thing is affected: the volume of the middle C.

So what makes a beautiful sound? Or a harsh one?

That's the even easier part. When you had more than one note, say a chord, the harshness is determined by your decided voicing and volume that you give each note IN RELATION to the other notes. A "singing chord" could just possibly be the difference between hitting the top notes louder than the bottom notes. A "fat chord" could just possibly be the difference between voicing the bottom and top notes louder than the inner notes, or vice versa. But on any given note, you really can only control one part of that note: it's volume.

Another myth: the pedal. Many pianists also believe that with the pedal down, whether you connect a legato line with your fingers or poke it out staccato, it makes a difference. Sorry. Wrong there as well. When you put down the pedal, the dampers on every key go up - thus, the hammer hits the key, then the hammer immediately goes back down, and the dampers never come down. Thus, whether you play a melody line stacatto or legato with the pedal down, it theoretically should not matter - as long as you are playing the volume of the notes in the exact same relation to each other.

Think of the piano as a series of drums. You can only control the volume of each note. NOTHING ELSE. In order to play beautifully, we have to produce an aural illusion that we are really controlling more than just that. That is the art of the piano. To think any differently is tricking yourself into believing the piano is something that it is not. To truly master a good tone, you have to believe in the truth.

If you are one of those pianists who turn their fingers horizontally on melody lines, good for you - but know that it is not affecting your sound. If you are one of those pianists who move their elbows in every which direction to try and have a 'nicer sound', good for you - but know that if you DO have a nice sound, it has NOTHING to do with your elbows. It is simply because you are a good musician and have subconscious understanding about the physics of what you are doing.

Many of you don't believe a word I just said. Unfortunately, by laws of physics, nothing I wrote just now was a lie. Learn to accept it. Don't be like a hardcore Christian who refuses to believe in evolution. Instead of learning the 'magic' of the piano, content yourself with learning the 'aural illusion' of the piano. Your life will change.

[vladimirdounin]

 This is the art of touch.  So don't go saying this is outdated because it is definatly not.

There is a big difference in the quality of one single note. If you forget about the piano for a second and think about the human voice. All of the voices produce a particular unique sound.

ANSWER

I agree with you about the voices. I can not agree with you about piano sound. The two facts can be used against your point:

1. Try to make recording of several single notes on your piano in the next way: some notes you are playing with your "best as possible touch", than ask any other person to play the same note with the approximately the same volume, then do the same vice-versa - your partner plays first, then you are playing his note with the same volume. Do it randomly (not just in turn) 10-20 times. Make  a break to forget your sequence and volume.

Now listen to play back of your recording: I bet you will never recognize: which single note was yours and which one was played by your partner in this test.

2.Disklavier is the best piano recording equipment in the world, it plays back perfectly the same note that you played in absolutely the same way. However Disklavier "does not know" anything about your touch: it knows only Pitch, Timing and Volume of each note.
                                                                                 
                                                                                                   V.D.

If you want to be scientific like which has no reason in creating music.

ANSWER

Some people, including my self, have the opinion that a scientific knowledge in any profession is better than just guessing about each next step. It is very personal, of course.

                                                                                   V.D.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure if you want to create a test you will not tell the difference between the players hitting one note with no intentions. But then ask to play the first note of 20 different MUSICAL PIECES. You will be able to tell the difference between your own playing and someone elses.

 Notes must have a reason then you can hear who it comes from. Those who think music is all science just are missing that other side of music, the unexplainable, and there is a great deal of that in music creation.

If you want to start measuring the exact time, volumes that people use, the EXACT measurement is never possible. You only get a rounded value. The decimal places of the exact pressure, exact time intervals in each persons rubato is infinite in measurement. There lies differences in peoples playing if you want to be scientific. If you want to start rounding things off to the nearest measurement you will only get a general view of music. Music is constantly changing, it is a living entity. Not a standard, not something that has one right way.

If you just artifically play notes with a useless scientific experiement to prove that you cant tell the different between a note being struck by one person or the other you might as well start doing tests to see if my visual perception of the color green is exactly the same as your perception of the color green. The tests are useless, and perhaps only are there to make those who cant find their "individual voice" at the piano feel comforted that there is a measurable scientific standard to explain everyone's playing. A great musician doesn't necessarily play the piece the same way every time, it bends, contorts with your emotional state of mind.

[vladimirdounin]

 You can only control the volume of each note. NOTHING ELSE. In order to play beautifully, we have to produce an aural illusion that we are really controlling more than just that. That is the art of the piano. To think any differently is tricking yourself into believing the piano is something that it is not. To truly master a good tone, you have to believe in the truth.

ANSWER

Dear ANDHOW 04. I am sure that you know the story about "Naked King" by Anderson. Why you did not say everything that you have written here long time ago? With your perfect English and excellent logic you had to say the truth to the face of all "naked kings" at least many yers before. (Maybe you did it? I do not know, of course).

I noticed only one inaccuracy in your comment: Staccato with damper pedal sounds differently than legato or non legato (detached), because together with normal sound of the string you are generating some specific knocking sound by hitting the key against the board in more aggressive way. You can make recording  of  both these ways and you will hear clearly the difference between staccato (with pedal "ON") and plain non legato or legato.

You are absolutely right that our goal is just in creating the illusion of singing. I do it successfully with each of my students and can show posters of my own concert  programs consisting only of songs of different composers. I can attach to them official confirmations that my concerts "made of songs" were sold out a few days before the date of performance.
Because everybody likes and wants to hear to the "singing on piano", but not to look at twisted elbows and contorted shoulders.

Thank for excellent understanding the real core of the problem.

Good luck!

Vladimir Dounin  

[vladimirdounin]

Sure if you want to create a test you will not tell the difference between the players hitting one note with no intentions. But then ask to play the first note of 20 different MUSICAL PIECES. You will be able to tell the difference between your own playing and someone elses.

ANSWER

Thank you! It was our favourite play in the class of my teacher Vladimir Nielsen.
Exactly as you say one of us played the very first note of some piece and all the rest immediately recognized that piece. It is a great fun! Let us play like this one day with you and your friends!
 However, I will not do anything to my elbows and hands for this play. I will just adjust relations in timing and volume in the right way, that is recorded in my mind. And any my or YOUR student will play the first note "in recognizeable way" if I will just say them Note Strength for each note of the chord. Even if they never had heard this piece before and do not know this music. It is universal and powerful tool for hundreds occasions in our work.
                                                                                                V.D.
 

 Notes must have a reason then you can hear who it comes from. Those who think music is all science just are missing that other side of music, the unexplainable, and there is a great deal of that in music creation.
 
ANSWER

I did not find in the music anything "unexplainable" yet, maybe I would agree with you if will show me anything like that. Today, sorry, I do not  know about anything misterious yet. I switched from very high-ranked teacher to V.V.Nielsen just because he promised me to explain everything and answer all my questions. And he did it  always and perfectly. My other teachers (before him) just shouted to me: shut up, don't ask such a questions, nobody knows this... VeVeNiel (nickname of my teacher) never failed to explain and I do my best to continue the same policy.

Try me, ask anything you want. I will not give up.


If you want to start measuring the exact time, volumes that people use, the EXACT measurement is never possible.


ANSWER

We do not need any EXACT measurement at all. I can compare the structure of music to the familiar shingles on our roof. Each of them is small but they cover and protect any area on condition that they are laid down on the roof not in random but in certain, organized order. The end of each of them should be above the beginning of the next one, and never vice - versa. You can use long or short shingles, they can be thick or thin, green or red, your roof can have any shape and angle - all of these does not matter.
Only one thing is important - the relation with the next and the previous one. The same about our notes. If you played the resolution note louder than the conflict note before everyone in your audience says (in her/his mind): I am not a musician, but I know that it is wrong, it  must not sound like that. Why we must not know "that" before we played any note in a wrong way?

                                                                                    V.D.

 A great musician doesn't necessarily play the piece the same way every time, it bends, contorts with your emotional state of mind.

ANSWER

Yes, of course, but bad musician only bends and contorts without good music at the time of this contortion, we have to become a great musician first. My system helps everybody to move exactly in this direction instead of opposite.

                                                                                         V.D.
     
                                                                   

[pianonut]

cut-offs and pedalling can be controlled.  tempos can be controlled.  and, the choice of the piano that you play can be controlled.  why is it that my teacher can make a bad piano sound good?  can some people actually compensate for the inadequacies of the piano (once they test them) by actually remembering certain notes that don't ring very well and incorporating them in a phrase without stressing them as much.

also, my teacher has taught me the difference between a buzz bass note, vs. a lighter touch (with same volume, mind you) without the buzz.  interesting how much you can control if you are 'half magician' or just learn some secrets.

lostinidlewonder and many professional artists like him, imo, would feel hindered if they were forced into a mold.  this leaves no room for creativity, and makes one feel evolutionized to the point of computers taking over the musicality of a piece and leaving us as random chips that happen to plug into the main computer.

dounin, you're trying to take over the world when you say "the best way."  it won't work for people that value their freedom.  perhaps, for students, it could be "a helpful way."  i agree with the idea that students have to learn the degrees of sound they can get from a piano.  this is surpassed by a concert artist - and leaves that step in the real world.  the mysterious world is truly what makes a certain performance 'inspired.'

[vladimirdounin]

cut-offs and pedalling can be controlled.  tempos can be controlled.  and, the choice of the piano that you play can be controlled.  why is it that my teacher can make a bad piano sound good?  can some people actually compensate for the inadequacies of the piano (once they test them) by actually remembering certain notes that don't ring very well and incorporating them in a phrase without stressing them as much.

ANSWER

Any piano can sound beautifully if it is in tune and has no mechanical problems (e.g. broken hammers). However you will immediately dislike one of them if you have a choice between two of them. "The better is an enemy of a good one" (sorry if I did not translated  properly this popular in Russia saying).

Your teacher knows exactly: which particular note at the each particular moment should be  played louder or softer (even if s/he does not realize this as knowledge, many call it "feeling" )  and does no mistakes in timing and pedalling. Therefore his/her music is better than yours. After some period of time you will be closer to the level of your teacher. However,you will play the same (as your teacher) way immediately, if s/he wrote for you accurately a detailed report about all the relations between all the notes that s/he played. (Like all my students do this at each my lesson). Then they go ahead and I can not follow them and play their pieces as good as they do, because I do not practice and think about their songs as much as they practice and think. However,I still can correct their mistakes in their knowledge relating to these pieces and they still love me for this assistance.
                                                                    V.D.


also, my teacher has taught me the difference between a buzz bass note, vs. a lighter touch (with same volume, mind you) without the buzz.  interesting how much you can control if you are 'half magician' or just learn some secrets.

ANSWER

I do not know what do you mean  saying "buzz". However if I or my students had chance to hear your "buzz" we could copy it immediately. There are no other secrets in piano playing exept mentioned Pitch, Timing and Volume plus pedals.

                                                                                          V.D.
 
lostinidlewonder and many professional artists like him, imo, would feel hindered if they were forced into a mold.  this leaves no room for creativity, and makes one feel evolutionized to the point of computers taking over the musicality of a piece and leaving us as random chips that happen to plug into the main computer.

ANSWER

All the people on the road obey routine Traffic Rules and nobody feels (in spite of existence of these rules) him/her self to be hindered into a mold. I never teach my students to play in the way that I want. My policy is that I only help my students to play exactly how THEY WANT TO PLAY.
Only the single difference between me and the traditional teacher is, that my students do it instantly without  wasting of their time on zigzags and rambling.

                                                                       V.D.



dounin, you're trying to take over the world when you say "the best way."  it won't work for people that value their freedom.  perhaps, for students, it could be "a helpful way."  i agree with the idea that students have to learn the degrees of sound they can get from a piano.  this is surpassed by a concert artist - and leaves that step in the real world.  the mysterious world is truly what makes a certain performance 'inspired.'

ANSWER

You have not noticed, that I DID NOT GIVE MY VARIANT of playing these notes. I only invited the musical word to express their opinions: "What is the best way to play Beethoven". The musically terrible example of spelling of +++ and ---- is only for technical understanding: what and how to write to express your opinion and be understood by others.

My students are watching all the attempts of others to write "the proper degrees" with big interest and I can say to them and to you as well that the freedom without knowledge is just the freedom of the blind person at the moment when s/he lost his/her stick. When do you feel yourself "more free": during the sunny day or in the darkness and mist? (I realize, that it is very personal: all depends on what you are going to do at these times, of course).

I can not comment your "certain performances inspired by misterious world' because I was not lucky enough to listen anything of this kind yet.

With my best wishes,
                                   V.D.

[lostinidlewonder]

Yes, of course, but bad musician only bends and contorts without good music at the time of this contortion, we have to become a great musician first.

That sentence is beyond my understanding ... Can you restate?

Thank you! It was our favourite play in the class of my teacher Vladimir Nielsen.
Exactly as you say one of us played the very first note of some piece and all the rest immediately recognized that piece. It is a great fun! Let us play like this one day with you and your friends!

I really don't understand the sense in saying you cannot identify the difference between a master and a beginner on the first note. By stating that you can exactly tell them how much to strike the note strength is fine, but you waste say 1 minute trying to perfect the strength of the one note. How realistic is it to continue this ULTRA SLOW method of learning how to play music? One can look at the tree and understand the leaves without having to look every single leaf to know what a leaf is. In other words we use our musical ear and mind to play, not by using our Left analytical brain to identify the exact pressure and volume of each individual note. If you are teaching Robots or people who have the right side of their brain missing, fair enough.

So I can say more ridiculous statements like, the first stroke of the paintbrush on canvas rivals any masterpiece drawn by all the artists that lived.

I did not find in the music anything "unexplainable" yet, maybe I would agree with you if will show me anything like that.

There are many things which are unexplainable to me, like, why do people sometimes move to tears hear particular music? Why does music have such an effect on our soul and body and mind? This then pushes us to explain what is Love, what is the Soul, what is the physical/metaphysical nature of music? Why does music heal people? Why can brain damaged people still play music?

 There is one example I saw recently on 60 minutes of a musican who has the worst case of Amnesia in the world. He cannot remember something 30 seconds later. He can turn around and then you can say to him, there is a piano behind you and he will turn back around and say  "Oh so there is". But he can still play piano. He can read music. His entire brain for memory is gone but he can still play the piano, this to me is an absolute mystery in itself. He can remember Love, his wife, a powerful force we all know Love is so we almost expect it to remain even in the most damaged brains. But what about music? It still exists in a brain so scarred.
Probably most mysterious of all is that warm secure feels you get when you are with your music, just you and your music alone. When you play passages which make even yourself have to stop and just absorb what you just heard again. The shiver down the spine when you hear someone playing magically. Those feeling can't really be explained and are so mysteriously radiating from sound.

[lostinidlewonder]

Oh and one more thing. A good teacher does teach a student to do louder this softer that, faster this slower that. That is not what a teacher is for. Yes a small part of the time is on that, a greater deal more on teaching them to understand WHY rather than say it is this, show them how to come to that conclusion.

Secondly a teachers responsibility is to maintain and increase a students efficiency in learning and absorbing music. This has nothing to do with the mastery of music rather the ability to absorb it. Mastery happens over time it isn't a forceable issue and no one can teach mastery of a piece just by saying louder this or slower that. That comes from experience only. So a teacher who thinks they can teach a student to be a master is UTTERLY FOOLING THEMSELVES. These teachers have some hope that they can give a student this magical golden rod of knowledge which will make them masters. It is perhaps their own over ambitious and big confidence in their musical ideas.

[vladimirdounin]

That sentence is beyond my understanding ... Can you restate?

ANSWER

I mean that bad musician are focusing on some "magic" movement of their elbows and arms, they are twisting, flaten etc. their hands and fingers but it does not improve their music. The secret of good music is not in elbows but in the head. Put to their head the right knowledge and they will play in bautiful way instantly, though it can be much slower than they used to play before. Virtuosity comes later.
                                                        Vladimir Dounin.


I really don't understand the sense in saying you cannot identify the difference between a master and a beginner on the first note. By stating that you can exactly tell them how much to strike the note strength is fine, but you waste say 1 minute trying to perfect the strength of the one note. How realistic is it to continue this ULTRA SLOW method of learning how to play music? One can look at the tree and understand the leaves without having to look every single leaf to know what a leaf is. In other words we use our musical ear and mind to play, not by using our Left analytical brain to identify the exact pressure and volume of each individual note. If you are teaching Robots or people who have the right side of their brain missing, fair enough.

About learning just one leaf to know all the rest leaves on the tree - you are absolutely right. It is exactly Note Strength technology of learning. You need to understand the way to draw
one single leaf and it will be enough to draw the whole tree without any assistance from the teacher. However you never will draw one single leaf beautifully without understanding of all more dark and more bright areas on its surfice. Here you need some kind of quantification, not necessary just suggested in my articles. Vladimir Dounin


So I can say more ridiculous statements like, the first stroke of the paintbrush on canvas rivals any masterpiece drawn by all the artists that lived.

ANSWER

Each of us is free to say any ridiculous statement. V.D.

There are many things which are unexplainable to me, like, why do people sometimes move to tears hear particular music? Why does music have such an effect on our soul and body and mind? This then pushes us to explain what is Love, what is the Soul, what is the physical/metaphysical nature of music? Why does music heal people? Why can brain damaged people still play music?

ANSWER

Music works like a secret pin number on the entrance to human soul. I have seen with my own eyes: the killer- prisoner in a jail fainted during listening to the music for children by Glinka (she just had killed a child in her "previous life".


 There is one example I saw recently on 60 minutes of a musican who has the worst case of Amnesia in the world. He cannot remember something 30 seconds later. He can turn around and then you can say to him, there is a piano behind you and he will turn back around and say  "Oh so there is". But he can still play piano. He can read music. His entire brain for memory is gone but he can still play the piano, this to me is an absolute mystery in itself. He can remember Love, his wife, a powerful force we all know Love is so we almost expect it to remain even in the most damaged brains. But what about music? It still exists in a brain so scarred.
Probably most mysterious of all is that warm secure feels you get when you are with your music, just you and your music alone. When you play passages which make even yourself have to stop and just absorb what you just heard again. The shiver down the spine when you hear someone playing magically. Those feeling can't really be explained and are so mysteriously radiating from sound.

ANSWER

If sound is not ugly or disgusting, of course.

All the best! Vladimir Dounin

[vladimirdounin]

Oh and one more thing. A good teacher does teach a student to do louder this softer that, faster this slower that. That is not what a teacher is for.

ANSWER

And who else will put randomly played, sensless dynamics of the student into some minimally acceptable order?
                                                                                                 

... no one can teach mastery of a piece just by saying louder this or slower that. That comes from experience only. So a teacher who thinks they can teach a student to be a master is UTTERLY FOOLING THEMSELVES. These teachers have some hope that they can give a student this magical golden rod of knowledge which will make them masters. It is perhaps their own over ambitious and big confidence in their musical ideas.

ANSWER
 I will not argue with you about your point. If you are sure that is just fooling, I can assure you that this system oppens for us an excellent way to fool and cheat adjudicators, examiners and any audience as well, not only myself. In fact it is enough for my students' and my own satisfaction.

I wish you the same!

Yours Sincerely,
Vladimir Dounion

[vladimirdounin]

 How realistic is it to continue this ULTRA SLOW method of learning how to play music?

ANSWER

Exactly opposite. This method is ULTRA FAST! It gives the result - good, beautiful music -instantly. Everything that I taught to my student works for him/her on ANY other piece of other composer in the future. In this way it saves tons of time and efforts. We do not reinvent bicycle for each new road. We've got it already.

Join us in my practical test "Super-Project globELISEtion"!

V.D.

[Skeptopotamus]

cut-offs and pedalling can be controlled.  tempos can be controlled.  and, the choice of the piano that you play can be controlled.  why is it that my teacher can make a bad piano sound good?  can some people actually compensate for the inadequacies of the piano (once they test them) by actually remembering certain notes that don't ring very well and incorporating them in a phrase without stressing them as much.

also, my teacher has taught me the difference between a buzz bass note, vs. a lighter touch (with same volume, mind you) without the buzz.  interesting how much you can control if you are 'half magician' or just learn some secrets.

lostinidlewonder and many professional artists like him, imo, would feel hindered if they were forced into a mold.  this leaves no room for creativity, and makes one feel evolutionized to the point of computers taking over the musicality of a piece and leaving us as random chips that happen to plug into the main computer.

dounin, you're trying to take over the world when you say "the best way."  it won't work for people that value their freedom.  perhaps, for students, it could be "a helpful way."  i agree with the idea that students have to learn the degrees of sound they can get from a piano.  this is surpassed by a concert artist - and leaves that step in the real world.  the mysterious world is truly what makes a certain performance 'inspired.'

i agree.  but more importantly..... o.o;;  Did pianonut just make a long, well thought-out post that stayed on topic and didn't allude to bob or mayla?

[Dazzer]

Join us in my practical test "Super-Project globELISEtion"!

isit just me, or is that the LAMEST pun i've ever heard.

[vladimirdounin]

isit just me, or is that the LAMEST pun i've ever heard.

ANSWER

"Us" does not mean just me. I am pretty sure regarding at least a few pianists who will be not scared to participate in this test. This gave me the reasons for "US". However, I do not think that many would like to share my responsibility for the results. Therefore test is "MY". I am not used to hide myself behind others in a cowardly manner. My game - my loss, and you know that I hope to win.
         V.D.

[vladimirdounin]

I invite all my supporters and opponents to read my new "Preamble" and listen to my recordings "Fur Elise" and "Russian - Japanese - Canadian folk song" in  "Audition Room" of this "Forum".

Thank you in anticipation for all your comments!

With my best wishes,

Vladimir Dounin.

[ihatepop]

I think you shold write a book and cash in

I agree. VD, you could call your book 'Anything you wanted to know about playing "Moonlight Sonata" by Beethoven, including interesting fact sheets on the master himself and a free public domain edition of this wonderous piece. Written by VD, illustrated by VD, edited by VD, published by VD. If your serious about the Moonlight Sonata, read this book. If you're not, toss it into the bin, or kindly return this to 'VD and Co.' to safe our earth (we can recycle the paper).'
Thats the Whole Front page title. Don't forget to use big fonts!

ihatepop

[counterpoint]

The thread title did inspire me to a little experiment, so here is a very special version of

"Für Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata"   


[EDIT]

since this is not really related to the posting of the thread creator, I have created a new thread in Audition room. My posting (and the answers to it) could be removed here!

[berrt]

"Für Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata"   

Very nice! Somehow, it "fits".. 

[pianowolfi]

The thread title did inspire me to a little experiment, so here is a very special version of

"Für Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata"   

lol 

[ihatepop]

Wow, thats really creative and nice! Keep going!
I'd like to see the day you play Volodos's variation of 'alla turka' and Chopin's 'Fantasy Impropmtu' together.

ihatepop

[beethoven2]

with passion of course!   flow with the music!   let ur hands glide across the keys!

[counterpoint]

Wow, thats really creative and nice! Keep going!
I'd like to see the day you play Volodos's variation of 'alla turka' and Chopin's 'Fantasy Impropmtu' together.

ihatepop

Yeah, I am surprised myself, how good the two pieces fit 

I only used an existing file of the Moonlight Sonata for my music notating program and added the "Für Elise" melody to it (with some very little changes to fit the key changes).

Alla turca and Fantasy Impromptu - I wonder, if this would make a good effect.

Perhaps Träumerei and Winterwind-Etude...

[leucippus]

I'm not sure what it is with alot of these serious classical pianists. I hardly want to even call them musicians. If your entire goal is to just to be able to play a memorized piece following strict rules and guildlines, and following the score note for note.  You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it.

Hell why not just call yourselves "Robots". I dont even see how you could get enjoyment out of playing music this way.  With your rules and regulations. Bah.

I am in complete agreement with Shoshin.

When I read topics like these all I can think to myself is how lame these so-called 'musicians' must really be.  If they have to be taught musicality then they obviously don't have any of their own.   It's as simple as that.

It's the difference between a genuine artist and someone who's simply trying to reproduce someone else's art.  Of course I suppose that ultimately most professional musicians really are just technicians as opposed to being true artists.  I can't imagine any genuine artist even considering such a method.  Any real artist would simply say, "Just teach me the notes and the technical aspects of playing the instrument and I'll take care of the musicality myself thank you"

I mean really.  Give me a break!

What you people are calling "musicality" is actually "replicality" (i.e. playing like a robotic technician following rules)  Then when the piece sounds similar to what you think it should sound like you call that "great musicality" when in reality it's just a Xerox copy of preconceived expectations.  Bah.  That's not music.

I totally agree with Shoshin:

"You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it"

That's what REAL MUSIC is all about!

[counterpoint]

When I read topics like these all I can think to myself is how lame these so-called 'musicians' must really be.  If they have to be taught musicality then they obviously don't have any of their own.   It's as simple as that.

It's the difference between a genuine artist and someone who's simply trying to reproduce someone else's art. 

There are many people around, who think like this. "If you have musicality in you, it isn't necessary to make thoughts about it. Feel the music and follow your feelings. Musicality can't be taught."

One moment please.

If you can hear music, you can judge music. That's right. It's very simple to hear a recording of Richter or Michelangeli or Rubinstein and to say: it's too slow, too fast, there's a lack of feeling etc. Everyone can do that.

But the question is: are you a better musician than all these great pianists, only because you think, your own playing sounds much better than theirs? How can you know?
If you play yourself, you don't know, how it sounds to others. You know how you want it to sound, but that's your illusion, not the reality.

A good musician first has to call himself in question, he has to verify, if the work he does and the work he believes he does conform to another. Most often that's not the case.

If you play only for your own fun, there's no problem in thinking you're the best pianist in the world. But if you play in front of an audience, you have to assure that the feelings you have will not extremely differ from the feelings the audience has.

That's why it is so important to know what you are doing - and not only give the control  completely away to your feelings.

[vladimirdounin]

I am in complete agreement with Shoshin.

When I read topics like these all I can think to myself is how lame these so-called 'musicians' must really be.  If they have to be taught musicality then they obviously don't have any of their own.   It's as simple as that.

  Of course I suppose that ultimately most professional musicians really are just technicians as opposed to being true artists.  I can't imagine any genuine artist even considering such a method.  Any real artist would simply say, "Just teach me the notes and the technical aspects of playing the instrument and I'll take care of the musicality myself thank you"



What you people are calling "musicality" is actually "replicality" (i.e. playing like a robotic technician following rules)  Then when the piece sounds similar to what you think it should sound like you call that "great musicality" when in reality it's just a Xerox copy of preconceived expectations.  Bah.  That's not music.

I mean really.  Give me a break!

Dear Leucippus and Shoshin,

Judging from your very emotional statements you've got a lot of feelings and musicality. I have a suggestion: let us use them productively and make FUN for ourselves and for all the members of this Forum!

I invite YOU to post in  our "Audition Room" any your recording of any popular (otherwise only very few of members will be interested to listen) piece of YOUR CHOICE, of any level: from "Twinkle-Twinkle" to Balakirev's "Islamey".

I promise you to make my own recording of the same piece and post it in "Audition Room" as well. In this way we will give opportunity to all our members to make "informed decision": who of us is a real artist, and who is "just technician as opposed to being true artist" and so called foulmouthed talker.

I wish you good luck!

Sincrerely,

Vladimir Dounin

PS The very best musicians that I was privileged to meet in my life not only considered but used this method actively. They gave me this knowledge FREE, and I consider my duty to pass this knowledge FREE to everyone who loves music (not just him/her self in music). And I do it successfully - come and see. It is FREE. If you (or anybody else, btw) want - invite me, I will show practically, how does it work.

Right notes and timing do not make your
music beautiful and enjoyable yet. You
have to know about each note: which one
should be louder or softer?
Until now NO ONE BOOK or TEACHER
could answer this question because this
information was not available. Now
modern technologies can provide you
with a few simple and easy rules that
will improve your musicality (phrasing,
expression, dynamics etc.) dramatically,
instantly and forever.
In one FREE hour-long lesson you can learn to perform
as beautifully as the best professionals (the music that you are ABLE to play. of course).


 
                              V.D.

[phil13]

Perhaps Träumerei and Winterwind-Etude...

Here is some CG I have made for you all:

"Traumerwind!"

Phil

[m]

In one FREE hour-long lesson you can learn to perform
as beautifully as the best professionals (the music that you are ABLE to play. of course).

Hold on a second... Doesn't it remind a TV commercial about loosing 50lb. in a week... and it is absolutely free? And somehow, of course, IT ALWAYS WORKS... instantly, and forever.
On the other hand, I would gladly leave all my duties here and buy a ticket on a next flight to Canada, if you promise to teach me in one free lesson how to play Brahms op.10, or Rahmaninov Vocalise, as beautifully as Gilels. (Yes, I am able to play those pieces.)

The idea of:
 
"Now modern technologies can provide you
with a few simple and easy rules that
will improve your musicality (phrasing,
expression, dynamics etc.) dramatically,
instantly and forever."

is pretty attractive, considering it takes only one lesson... and for free. There should be some catch, though.
Let's see...

First, I'd like to know what are those "modern technologies"? Is it kind of software, hardware, or some newest scientific developments, or anything else?
Second, I agree the rules of musicality are pretty simple, however, it is not about rules, but their implementation. Sure, on a surface dynamics can improve musicality, or rather SEEMING musicality. However, you cannot fool a professional, who will immediately spot the real talent from hundreds of those who "play with dynamics", or "play musically according to the rules".

Musicality is not about dynamics, or phrasing, or even expression. Musicality is about WHO YOU ARE and your emotional and personal connection with music. You cannot "improve" musicality without improving yourself. Does it take one free lesson? I wish it was so... To me it rather takes LIFETIME.

Dynamics, phrasing, expression, are only a SMALL PART of musicality, and have nothing to do with real artistry, which is much more complex and also involves many other things, such as taste, artistism, belief in what you are doing, and most of all--ability TO BREATH LIFE INTO MUSIC. It would be a very unfortunate fallacy to believe we could do it with mere dynamics.