All the students of any level receive inevitably excellent marks (“for exceptional musicality”) at any exam or competition, as soon as they have learned 25-30 basic rules.
Instead of thinking notes, think as a whole? I mean thats what I always did.
I think you shold write a book and cash in
Vladimir, it's really interesting, what are you talking about. I can say ,that I agree with you, even if usually I don't think about the rules during practising and play from intuition. I really would like to know more about your methods and music rules, that you have discovered.So I will try to do that you asked:G# G# G#+ G# G# G#+ A++ G#+++ F#++ B+ EPS. It's dificult to me think in this way, even if last month i played this sonata in my exam. After reading your post I went to me piano in order to look, how did I play. And actually, that was very difficult to decide, which note is stong, which is not and ect. And I'm not sure if I really played in this way.... but....I'm really wonder that do you think. Dear Vaiva,Thank you very much for your worm words. Please have a look at my article on this site but in "Teaching" Forum.Somebody moved "me" from performers to teachers. I am not happy with this. Music Teachers usually are not interested to know anything that does not make money immediately. Performers, on the contrary, are looking for any new information eagerly - because their life depends on ability to play in enjoable way and attract audience. I know it because I am both: and teacher and concert performer.If you will not find the answer in my latest production "Congratulations! We have made history" - please, let me know.With best wishes,Vladimir Dounin.
I play the first part all flat fingered. I feel i can get some extra feel this way and since there is alot of stretches in this piece you might as well get used to playing it all flat fingered.In terms of stressing notes well there is really three things going on. The big bass line with the left hand which is mostly held octaves. Second the constantly flowing melody that should be uninterrupted. And finally the "lead" part which uses notes from the constantly flowing melody but you use dynamics to bring it out by playing it louder.Its a really creative setup in my opinion. Beethoven definitely isn't a piano player as much as he is a composer because this piece has no regards for the human hand. Some really hard stretching going on. I think Beethoven just thinks about the sound/music he wants to create and doesn't care how awkward the the mechanics of playing its going to be.In terms of your question about the flowing melody 123 123 123 123. That part and your question is which note to use more dynamics? If you dont want to play them all at the same dynamic play the first note of the of the 3 notes slightly louder and go down. Its supposed to be like "moonlight on the water" so probably wave-like effect. I wish I knew more music lingo to explain this better. Trust your ears.
LOL only 25-30 rules? And if you memorize these and regugitate them on an exam you have "exceptional musicality"...for an ape?ANSWER[i]You do not need to read 20-30 boring Traffic Rules if you want just to “self-express” yourself as a driver on highway. You need them only to avoid costly bills from the court and the hospital.You do not need to learn 20-30 boring rules of debuts and endings for playing chess as well. You need them only if you want to win.You do not need to learn Grammar (super-boring 200 -300 rules of the language) if you want just to speak any foreign language, unless you want to be understood. And so on…Having Street Map in your pocket does not turn you into a an ape or “robot”, you can even use shortcuts that no map displays, but the map just prevents you from getting lost. Knowing of 20-30 "Rules of Musical Safety" does not stop you from playing better (if you know how to do it); it simple gives you an insurance against shameful, ugly way to perform beautiful music.[/i]I'm not sure what it is with alot of these serious classical pianists. I hardly want to even call them musicians. If your entire goal is to just to be able to play a memorized piece following strict rules and guildlines, and following the score note for note. You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it.Hell why not just call yourselves "Robots". I dont even see how you could get enjoyment out of playing music this way. With your rules and regulations. BahANSWERJudging from the Oxford and Harvard Musical dictionaries, Van Cliburn and Radu Lupu definitely can NOT be considered serious pianists. However, if tonight you will post in any public place one single ad about Cliburn’s concert (in any city of Russia), the next morning it will be already sold out. People were standing in queue on the street for a few years to get ticket and enjoy not perfect but hearts and souls touching music of “Vanechka” (Cliburn’s nickname in Russia) we, students, and pensioners made a good pocket money substituting the people in this queue.On the other hand, I have watched many concerts of “undoubtedly the best pianists of the world” (if the “New-York Times” did not joke). In one concert hall I saw even a humourous gallery of 37 “kings of all pianists of the universe” (according to the same source) that played in this hall in the last 4 years. All of these concerts started overcrowded, but after 20 minutes of “royal performing” only a few spectators could be still seen on some seats: because they fell asleep despite of the price of the tickets.I can not be objective in judgements regarding Radu Lupu because I, like all the rest of his schoolmates, already adored him when he was not famous yet – he delivered us from really the boring training in the “right positions of the hand”, “proper touch”, etc. He destroyed the whole official conception of piano method brilliantly, once and forever. No one professor dared to restore it again for our class in the conservatory after this incident. I can only witness that music lessons in Toronto quite often are cancelled on the dates of Radu Lupu’s concerts, because many teachers, students and their parents have bought the tickets. Regarding comments on my “over-detailed” approach I would like to put some questions:1. Some artist wishes to paint your portrait and invites you to choose which size of the painting brush he should use for this work.What is your choice: the smallest brush that he has or the biggest, available from Home Depot?2. You are going to buy a new car. The manufacturer gives you option to buy it much cheaper but “as a whole” (“as a whole” means that not all of the small details of the car are checked or adjusted). Will you catch this opportunity?3. You have to choose a new printer. Which Resolution Rate would you prefer – 240 dots per inch or 24 000 dots per inch?Why must we have different attitude towards MY face, MY car, MY printer and MY playing of the Beethoven’s sonata? What is more valuable for our audience: the right adjustment of all the details of the immortal music or of my car? Let us be honest in our relations with “our customers”- our audience, as well as with the greatest composers, who in heavens expect from us decent representations of themselves through their music.
It's a very fascinating topic, but I wonder, do you apply such a notation system to all the notes in the score, or just the melody? When it comes down to it such a technique seems above all to be about visualisation, and also turning varoius vaguenesses into solid thinking. We've got to avoid flip-flopping after all - as they say.Walter Ramsey
We just follow some simple and easy “Dynamics Rules” and it saves a lot of time and energy. In ONE lesson time I can teach anybody to play the piece (s/he is able to play, of course) as the best professionals play.
The Scientific Acoustic Research Laboratory of Moscow Conservatory does not work at this time, and I do not know which Western software can be used to display or print (in Disklavier 124 degrees scale) Note Strength of each particular note. This is a very effective and convenient way to discover “artistic secrets” of your favourite pianists, if visual information about timing and strength of each note in their recording is available. (Fortunately, almost everything in Piano Repertoire is recorded today digitally by “Disklavier” and the best performers, so we have a lot to choose from).
Dear Vladimir, I've never seen a score in which Beethoven indicated the emphases you describe. ..... Now, if you wish to play G#(++) C#(+) E, is this not your individual interpretation?....... Your teaching techniques certainly may be highly individual, but it's Beethoven's Op. 27, No.2.Regards,Jim Ritchie
I find understanding music is a lot more than just where to play loud or softer or faster or slower. Understanding it musically takes a lot of listening, playing a section many times until one is revealed the way to play it, a decision made from musical choices but also emotional choices which takes time to develop... ANSWER You are absolutely right, but your understanding will result in only more appropriate timing- and dynamics- relations between your notes. What else can be changed in piano music? - Nothing.Vladimir DouninThere is no way to reveal an entire piece to a student in one lesson, you can discuss a lot about it, but you cannot take them through the exact way to go through everything so that they play as high as the best professionals in the world. They are the best in the world because of life experience and knowledge of their art, not just their control of volume and tempo.[u]ANSWER[/u]There is a wonderful way to do so, I can do it and you can do it also! I posted my next article to explain this way for everyone (see "CONGRATS! WE HAVE MADE HISTORY" in "TEACHING" department of this forum). You are absolutely right that one needs life experience and knowledge of the art to create anything new in the art. But it is 100 times easier to make just a copy of somebody's great work. To write a new good poem one needs a years of work, but to make just a COPY of this poem takes a few seconds. A lot of fake Rembrands, Raphaels, Leonardo da Vincis are sold for crazy money on auctions and people were happy to pay money, they did not notice the difference.My students do not become a real professionals in one hour, of course. They only play like professionals, they copy the best pianists with good accuracy. It is only a teaching method for solving of some particular problems in their technique. However, anyone improves his/her own skills when s/he copies the greatest artists. Maybe one day the modest "copy maker" will create something important in the art too.I did not say that I can teach the entire piece in one lesson (for example, 41 page of "Islamey").But it is not a problem to make a few bars (at least) of very high quality with any student. It gives the student a strong confidence that s/he can do the same and to the rest bars of this piece at home. The most important is that they can apply the same rules to any piece (that they will have to play) in the future, e.g. "Do not accent the first note in any slur", "Do not accent the first note in a group of notes (single short note has different rules) after the long note or after the rest", "Do not play resolution louder than conflict note" etc...) I think trying to find the exact Note strength of what you play is being crazy. It is like looking at the leaves in a forest and trying to understand the entire forest that way. ANSWERI think not trying to find the exact Note Strength of what you play is much more being crazy. It is like looking at entire forest without understanding that it consists of trees, branches and leaves. Some bad painters are too lazy to draw separate trees and branches, so they just make green spot instead. If somebody like this - it is not me.Thank you very much for wonderful quotations from Chopin. For me they just support each my word that I posted. I will analize them later. Now I am late to my students.Thanks ones more,Yours Sincerely Vladimir Dounin
I know, of course that different movements of our arm and hand have an influence on our music. However it happens simply because all our different movements of arm and hand change the relations in timing and volume between the notes. Many great pianists said in different words the same idea: "There is absolutely no difference in the quality of one single note, whoever played this single note and in which way s/he did it. The difference starts from two notes, because they have already some relations between them".
I don't see how it is outdated to always consider how you are actually "touching" the notes. This is the physical aspect of our art which we always aim to perfect.ANSWERYou realise different movements effect music, so we target our movement, we target what is the most efficient way to play a passage. How can we keep our hands totally relaxed even if we are playing wild sections. This is the art of touch. To play everything effortlessly but maintain the quality of sound. So don't go saying this is outdated because it is definatly not.There is a big difference in the quality of one single note. If you forget about the piano for a second and think about the human voice. All of the voices produce a particular unique sound. But with a piano now we may fall into the trap in thinking, well it is one instrument, all physical factors are constant, so whoever plays one note you would never be able to tell the difference. If you ask the best pianist in the world and a beginner to play the first note in the LH of say... Satie's Gymnopedie. The intensity and the way the note is caressed by the hand, just this single note, sets up the entire basis for the rest of the music to follow. So there would be an ideal first sounding note for this piece and one would be able to identify differences even in this opening note.Of course there needs to be context. You can't just play a random note without reason, then one simply cannot tell the difference because we have no music to connect it to. If you want to be scientific like which has no reason in creating music.
Sure if you want to create a test you will not tell the difference between the players hitting one note with no intentions. But then ask to play the first note of 20 different MUSICAL PIECES. You will be able to tell the difference between your own playing and someone elses.ANSWERThank you! It was our favourite play in the class of my teacher Vladimir Nielsen.Exactly as you say one of us played the very first note of some piece and all the rest immediately recognized that piece. It is a great fun! Let us play like this one day with you and your friends! However, I will not do anything to my elbows and hands for this play. I will just adjust relations in timing and volume in the right way, that is recorded in my mind. And any my or YOUR student will play the first note "in recognizeable way" if I will just say them Note Strength for each note of the chord. Even if they never had heard this piece before and do not know this music. It is universal and powerful tool for hundreds occasions in our work. V.D. Notes must have a reason then you can hear who it comes from. Those who think music is all science just are missing that other side of music, the unexplainable, and there is a great deal of that in music creation. ANSWERI did not find in the music anything "unexplainable" yet, maybe I would agree with you if will show me anything like that. Today, sorry, I do not know about anything misterious yet. I switched from very high-ranked teacher to V.V.Nielsen just because he promised me to explain everything and answer all my questions. And he did it always and perfectly. My other teachers (before him) just shouted to me: shut up, don't ask such a questions, nobody knows this... VeVeNiel (nickname of my teacher) never failed to explain and I do my best to continue the same policy.Try me, ask anything you want. I will not give up.If you want to start measuring the exact time, volumes that people use, the EXACT measurement is never possible.ANSWERWe do not need any EXACT measurement at all. I can compare the structure of music to the familiar shingles on our roof. Each of them is small but they cover and protect any area on condition that they are laid down on the roof not in random but in certain, organized order. The end of each of them should be above the beginning of the next one, and never vice - versa. You can use long or short shingles, they can be thick or thin, green or red, your roof can have any shape and angle - all of these does not matter.Only one thing is important - the relation with the next and the previous one. The same about our notes. If you played the resolution note louder than the conflict note before everyone in your audience says (in her/his mind): I am not a musician, but I know that it is wrong, it must not sound like that. Why we must not know "that" before we played any note in a wrong way? V.D. A great musician doesn't necessarily play the piece the same way every time, it bends, contorts with your emotional state of mind.ANSWERYes, of course, but bad musician only bends and contorts without good music at the time of this contortion, we have to become a great musician first. My system helps everybody to move exactly in this direction instead of opposite. V.D.
cut-offs and pedalling can be controlled. tempos can be controlled. and, the choice of the piano that you play can be controlled. why is it that my teacher can make a bad piano sound good? can some people actually compensate for the inadequacies of the piano (once they test them) by actually remembering certain notes that don't ring very well and incorporating them in a phrase without stressing them as much.ANSWERAny piano can sound beautifully if it is in tune and has no mechanical problems (e.g. broken hammers). However you will immediately dislike one of them if you have a choice between two of them. "The better is an enemy of a good one" (sorry if I did not translated properly this popular in Russia saying).Your teacher knows exactly: which particular note at the each particular moment should be played louder or softer (even if s/he does not realize this as knowledge, many call it "feeling" ) and does no mistakes in timing and pedalling. Therefore his/her music is better than yours. After some period of time you will be closer to the level of your teacher. However,you will play the same (as your teacher) way immediately, if s/he wrote for you accurately a detailed report about all the relations between all the notes that s/he played. (Like all my students do this at each my lesson). Then they go ahead and I can not follow them and play their pieces as good as they do, because I do not practice and think about their songs as much as they practice and think. However,I still can correct their mistakes in their knowledge relating to these pieces and they still love me for this assistance. V.D.also, my teacher has taught me the difference between a buzz bass note, vs. a lighter touch (with same volume, mind you) without the buzz. interesting how much you can control if you are 'half magician' or just learn some secrets.ANSWERI do not know what do you mean saying "buzz". However if I or my students had chance to hear your "buzz" we could copy it immediately. There are no other secrets in piano playing exept mentioned Pitch, Timing and Volume plus pedals. V.D. lostinidlewonder and many professional artists like him, imo, would feel hindered if they were forced into a mold. this leaves no room for creativity, and makes one feel evolutionized to the point of computers taking over the musicality of a piece and leaving us as random chips that happen to plug into the main computer.ANSWERAll the people on the road obey routine Traffic Rules and nobody feels (in spite of existence of these rules) him/her self to be hindered into a mold. I never teach my students to play in the way that I want. My policy is that I only help my students to play exactly how THEY WANT TO PLAY.Only the single difference between me and the traditional teacher is, that my students do it instantly without wasting of their time on zigzags and rambling. V.D.dounin, you're trying to take over the world when you say "the best way." it won't work for people that value their freedom. perhaps, for students, it could be "a helpful way." i agree with the idea that students have to learn the degrees of sound they can get from a piano. this is surpassed by a concert artist - and leaves that step in the real world. the mysterious world is truly what makes a certain performance 'inspired.'
Yes, of course, but bad musician only bends and contorts without good music at the time of this contortion, we have to become a great musician first.
Thank you! It was our favourite play in the class of my teacher Vladimir Nielsen.Exactly as you say one of us played the very first note of some piece and all the rest immediately recognized that piece. It is a great fun! Let us play like this one day with you and your friends!
I did not find in the music anything "unexplainable" yet, maybe I would agree with you if will show me anything like that.
That sentence is beyond my understanding ... Can you restate?ANSWERI mean that bad musician are focusing on some "magic" movement of their elbows and arms, they are twisting, flaten etc. their hands and fingers but it does not improve their music. The secret of good music is not in elbows but in the head. Put to their head the right knowledge and they will play in bautiful way instantly, though it can be much slower than they used to play before. Virtuosity comes later. Vladimir Dounin.I really don't understand the sense in saying you cannot identify the difference between a master and a beginner on the first note. By stating that you can exactly tell them how much to strike the note strength is fine, but you waste say 1 minute trying to perfect the strength of the one note. How realistic is it to continue this ULTRA SLOW method of learning how to play music? One can look at the tree and understand the leaves without having to look every single leaf to know what a leaf is. In other words we use our musical ear and mind to play, not by using our Left analytical brain to identify the exact pressure and volume of each individual note. If you are teaching Robots or people who have the right side of their brain missing, fair enough.About learning just one leaf to know all the rest leaves on the tree - you are absolutely right. It is exactly Note Strength technology of learning. You need to understand the way to drawone single leaf and it will be enough to draw the whole tree without any assistance from the teacher. However you never will draw one single leaf beautifully without understanding of all more dark and more bright areas on its surfice. Here you need some kind of quantification, not necessary just suggested in my articles. Vladimir DouninSo I can say more ridiculous statements like, the first stroke of the paintbrush on canvas rivals any masterpiece drawn by all the artists that lived.ANSWEREach of us is free to say any ridiculous statement. V.D.There are many things which are unexplainable to me, like, why do people sometimes move to tears hear particular music? Why does music have such an effect on our soul and body and mind? This then pushes us to explain what is Love, what is the Soul, what is the physical/metaphysical nature of music? Why does music heal people? Why can brain damaged people still play music?ANSWERMusic works like a secret pin number on the entrance to human soul. I have seen with my own eyes: the killer- prisoner in a jail fainted during listening to the music for children by Glinka (she just had killed a child in her "previous life". There is one example I saw recently on 60 minutes of a musican who has the worst case of Amnesia in the world. He cannot remember something 30 seconds later. He can turn around and then you can say to him, there is a piano behind you and he will turn back around and say "Oh so there is". But he can still play piano. He can read music. His entire brain for memory is gone but he can still play the piano, this to me is an absolute mystery in itself. He can remember Love, his wife, a powerful force we all know Love is so we almost expect it to remain even in the most damaged brains. But what about music? It still exists in a brain so scarred. Probably most mysterious of all is that warm secure feels you get when you are with your music, just you and your music alone. When you play passages which make even yourself have to stop and just absorb what you just heard again. The shiver down the spine when you hear someone playing magically. Those feeling can't really be explained and are so mysteriously radiating from sound.ANSWERIf sound is not ugly or disgusting, of course.All the best! Vladimir Dounin
Oh and one more thing. A good teacher does teach a student to do louder this softer that, faster this slower that. That is not what a teacher is for. ANSWERAnd who else will put randomly played, sensless dynamics of the student into some minimally acceptable order? ... no one can teach mastery of a piece just by saying louder this or slower that. That comes from experience only. So a teacher who thinks they can teach a student to be a master is UTTERLY FOOLING THEMSELVES. These teachers have some hope that they can give a student this magical golden rod of knowledge which will make them masters. It is perhaps their own over ambitious and big confidence in their musical ideas. ANSWER I will not argue with you about your point. If you are sure that is just fooling, I can assure you that this system oppens for us an excellent way to fool and cheat adjudicators, examiners and any audience as well, not only myself. In fact it is enough for my students' and my own satisfaction.I wish you the same!Yours Sincerely,Vladimir Dounion
cut-offs and pedalling can be controlled. tempos can be controlled. and, the choice of the piano that you play can be controlled. why is it that my teacher can make a bad piano sound good? can some people actually compensate for the inadequacies of the piano (once they test them) by actually remembering certain notes that don't ring very well and incorporating them in a phrase without stressing them as much.also, my teacher has taught me the difference between a buzz bass note, vs. a lighter touch (with same volume, mind you) without the buzz. interesting how much you can control if you are 'half magician' or just learn some secrets.lostinidlewonder and many professional artists like him, imo, would feel hindered if they were forced into a mold. this leaves no room for creativity, and makes one feel evolutionized to the point of computers taking over the musicality of a piece and leaving us as random chips that happen to plug into the main computer.dounin, you're trying to take over the world when you say "the best way." it won't work for people that value their freedom. perhaps, for students, it could be "a helpful way." i agree with the idea that students have to learn the degrees of sound they can get from a piano. this is surpassed by a concert artist - and leaves that step in the real world. the mysterious world is truly what makes a certain performance 'inspired.'
Join us in my practical test "Super-Project globELISEtion"!
isit just me, or is that the LAMEST pun i've ever heard.
"Für Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata"
The thread title did inspire me to a little experiment, so here is a very special version of"Für Elise" and "Moonlight Sonata"
Wow, thats really creative and nice! Keep going! I'd like to see the day you play Volodos's variation of 'alla turka' and Chopin's 'Fantasy Impropmtu' together.ihatepop
I'm not sure what it is with alot of these serious classical pianists. I hardly want to even call them musicians. If your entire goal is to just to be able to play a memorized piece following strict rules and guildlines, and following the score note for note. You got no soul if you can't *FEEL* the music for yourself and produce your own version of it.Hell why not just call yourselves "Robots". I dont even see how you could get enjoyment out of playing music this way. With your rules and regulations. Bah.
When I read topics like these all I can think to myself is how lame these so-called 'musicians' must really be. If they have to be taught musicality then they obviously don't have any of their own. It's as simple as that.It's the difference between a genuine artist and someone who's simply trying to reproduce someone else's art.
I am in complete agreement with Shoshin.When I read topics like these all I can think to myself is how lame these so-called 'musicians' must really be. If they have to be taught musicality then they obviously don't have any of their own. It's as simple as that. Of course I suppose that ultimately most professional musicians really are just technicians as opposed to being true artists. I can't imagine any genuine artist even considering such a method. Any real artist would simply say, "Just teach me the notes and the technical aspects of playing the instrument and I'll take care of the musicality myself thank you"What you people are calling "musicality" is actually "replicality" (i.e. playing like a robotic technician following rules) Then when the piece sounds similar to what you think it should sound like you call that "great musicality" when in reality it's just a Xerox copy of preconceived expectations. Bah. That's not music.I mean really. Give me a break!
Perhaps Träumerei and Winterwind-Etude...
In one FREE hour-long lesson you can learn to performas beautifully as the best professionals (the music that you are ABLE to play. of course).