what's the lure of the bosendorfer?

[Skeptopotamus]

well?

[xvimbi]

It's the timbre of the "ö" and the rolling 'r' that makes American ladies melt away when explaining how to pronounce the name "Bösendorfer".

It's the incredibly smooth and refined action that allows for the subtlest effects (I'm talking about the piano now).

It's the lovely sound that is evoked by this action (not quite clear what I am talking about now...)

[gkatele]

I'm not nearly as experienced or sensitive as others here, but let me throw in my opinion anyway!

Back in 1977, when I was still playing seriously (sorta) and long before my decades-long absence from the piano, I had the opportunity to visit someone I worked with.

He had this HUGE black grand piano in his living room.

"What's that?"

"It's a Bösendorfer."

"A whatendorfer?"

"It's one of the finest pianos in the world."

"Can I try it?"

"Do  you play?"

"A bit..."



I banged out the Rach C# minor prelude and then the Grieg E-minor sonata.


I was amazed. The closest description I can give is that it felt like driving a Ferrari (not that I've ever done THAT either!). Accuracy, ease, precision and untapped power. Here's the important part:

                 It made me a better pianist than I thought I was![/i]


Since starting my search for a grand piano, few, very few have touched me the way that Bosie did - even the new Bosies aren't like that one was. It was, well, special.

Of course my date that night was appropriately impressed as well.

"George, I had no idea...."

Blushing modesty here.


That's what's special - at least for me.



George

[ptmidwest]

         
        (One time in my "living room", which at the time had two grands and an upright in it, and a wall of books of music, a man asked me if I liked music...)

[Floristan]

Bosendorfer's have an evenness of tone throughout the scale, unlike Steinway, where the bass and treble are purposefully designed to be very different. 

Steinway was trying to imitate an orchestra (and also to project tone to the back of the concert hall!)  The Steinway model is a full, complex, growling bass, and a crystal-clear but complex treble.  I always think of Birgit Nillson singing Wagner with full orchestra.  That's Steinway to me.

Bosendorfer's seem to be designed to maximize the piano as a piano, not to imitate an orchestra or a singer and orchestra.  The goal with a Bosie is to produce the most beautiful tone and have it be consistent from the bass to the treble.  For me, personally, a Bosie has never been surpassed for sheer beauty of tone.  Bosies, even the Imperials, can't match the Steinway ability to reach the back of the concert hall.  Consequently, Bosies are great for smaller halls and for chamber music (probably the ideal chamber music piano because they don't "intrude" like a Steinway) -- but they are not ideal for big concertos, because they will always be overwhelmed by the orchestra at one point or another.  Also for solo performance in a large hall, the sound gets lost in the farther reaches of the hall.  At least that's been my experience.

I'd take a Bosie any day over a Steinway...or just about any other piano!  Of course I can't afford one, so if anyone's feeling generous.... 

[gkatele]

Bosendorfer's have an evenness of tone throughout the scale, unlike Steinway, where the bass and treble are purposefully designed to be very different. 

I'd take a Bosie any day over a Steinway...or just about any other piano!  Of course I can't afford one, so if anyone's feeling generous.... 

One of the best descriptions I've heard in a long, long time. There's something about a Bosie that grabs you, and not in an unpleasant way.

Whereas a Steinway says "Hey, come here and listen to ME ," a Bosie says "Wanna play? I play nice, and I won't hurt you."

Now

(waiting for the shoe to drop)

How would you characterize the sound of a Mason and Hamlin?   



George

[dinosaurtales]

M&H?  Big, Heavy, Sturdy, American Iron.  That's the way it feels to me.  and also the way it sounds.  I don't like them much. 

[Skeptopotamus]

of what I've played on I like yamaha.

[pianonut]

bose's have a few extra notes at the bottom, too.  for whatever music goes that low?  did any composers write specifically for it?

i tend to like medium sized bose's. for some reason, the very large ones don't seem (to me) to sound any better.  why is this?

[gkatele]

bose's have a few extra notes at the bottom, too.  for whatever music goes that low?  did any composers write specifically for it?

Although there has been some music written for those low low bass notes, it is scarce (you're writing for a very, very limited audience, eh?).

The Bösendorfer folks say that those low strings vibrate sympathetically with the piano, giving it a unique tone. Perhaps a Bosie owner/dealer can comment.


George

[gfiore]

 Of Bösendorfer's current production, only two models have the extended bass compass. The model 290 has 96 keys, and the model 225 has 92 keys. The only other model with an extended bass compass, is the discontinued model 275  which had 92 keys. The model 275 is still available by special order only. Also discontinued, but not available was the model 213 which also had a 92 key compass.
  In short, the extended bass adds some resonance to the piano's strings, but the primary design feature was to place the strings from A0 and up, closer to the center of the bass bridge(further away from the end of the bridge), which very clearly enhances the tone of this section of the piano's scale.  Coulpled with a more massive soundboard( larger area in square inches),  the tonal output of the bass in  these pianos is very big.

[Skeptopotamus]

The Busoni Concerto is the famous piece that you need the bosendorfer for.

[andyd]

For me, the Imperial has a sweet sound that delights, and a clear rich bass.  Beautiful piano.


Andy

[rich_galassini]

This is a first Ladies and Gentleman!!

gfiore is a man who can quote just about every piano spec. you can think of. He has my sincere respect and carries more piano knowledge in his head than I have in my library.

Today, I get to correct a piano spec. that gfiore posted in this thread. The Bosie Imperial has 97 keys, not 96, g. 

Its my pleasure to help,

[gfiore]

  Good boy Rich. You caught me. I must have been thinking the size of the Imperial, 9'6", and 96 keys was a Freudian slip.
 Anyway, if you ever want to get aquainted with the Bösendorfer pianos, and meet one of the best and most well articulated salesman in the industry. A trip to Cunningham Piano Co to see Rich Galassini would be very educational for any piano lover.

[pianonut]

 how do i get there from collegeville?  do i need an appointment?  can i come and actually play on the pianos or do i just have to wear gloves, formal attire, and touch keys when the guide is not looking.  what happens if you stay too long?  has anyone ever stolen a bosendorfer?  how hard is it to get out the door?  do you still have the roll up pianos?  where did the young artists go after saturday's performance?  do you serve food after the concerts?  these are all questions that have been percolating in my head.

ps last question...when i get close to finishing my master's degree can i sell bosendorfer's by playing them for people who come in looking to buy a piano?  pianonut is desperate for a career in something after graduating - as a contract with carnegie hall looks kind of slim.

pss very last question...can i get a picture of myself sitting at a bosendorfer?  maybe i'll dress up really formal and post my pic so people think i'm rich and famous.  i do have a long black formal.  i'll get the fingerless gloves (wonders if she can just snip a hole under gloves fingers at the knuckle like people do for weddings - but then the fingers of the glove would sort of hang down while playing.  maybe one could stuff them back in and under - but that would make bulges.  ok we'll cut them off at the knuckle).    

[Floristan]

Now

(waiting for the shoe to drop)

How would you characterize the sound of a Mason and Hamlin?   



George

Masons are the most complex pianos I've ever played.  They're like a really fine cabernet sauvignon.   The bass is very, very full, rich, and complex but not growly like a Steinway...more rumbly, like thunder.  The treble is much richer than on a Steinway, complex and, while neither dry nor sweet (borrowing from wine-tasting vocabulary), it is nonetheless fruity.  That is, it has a very strong flavor, not really sweet, never shrill, beautiful when it needs to be, and a little scary when it needs to be.  The blend between bass and treble is perfect, and while the tone of each is not close to the same (not like a Bosie), it's not as radically different as on a Steinway.  (I'm talking mainly of the M&H BB, with which I've had the most experience.)  The M&H action is on the heavy side, but it doesn't seem to interfere with the ability to produce a complete range of dynamics.  I really like these complex pianos.  I'd say in many ways they are diametrically opposed to Bosendorfer...and yet I love both.  I'd say M&H can't be beat for, say, Beethoven, Schubert, and Brahms.  Those are probably the composer that benefits most from what M&H has to offer.  I'd prefer a Bosendorfer for everything before Beethoven and after Brahms.

I can afford neither, so again, if anyone is feeling particularly generous and magnanimous, a Bosie 225 and a Mason BB would make a great present!  

[gerry]

More picking up old threads. I didn't see it mentioned in this thread but, re. your mentioning Mason & Hamlin and Bosies, there was a period of time (late 60s early 70s) when Bosendorfer was owned by Everett - before being bought again by American Piano Company. The story as I heard it was that Bosendorfer was in big trouble not only because of low output but that all the old craftsman were dying out. The CEO of Everett was apparently a real piano nut and bought the company with the idea of instituting an apprentice program at Bosie and to bring the technology back to the US to improve the Mason & Hamlin. During this time M&H produced an actual Mason & Hamily/Bosendorfer model. I played one and thought that it was one of the best bargains going at the time. I don't know much past that point like how long they produced this model or whether it was successful or not.

[gfiore]

Sorry Gerry. Bosendorfer was never owned by Everett or M&H. They were however owned by Jasper International which in turn owned the Kimball Piano Co.
 As for craftsmen dying out. That's hysterical. Bosie has one of the most rigorous apprenticeship programs in the industry. Each apprentice must serve for eight years, and they've never had a shortage of apprentices learning, and gaining experience that has been passed down from the generations of master piano makers at the factory. I know. I've been there.

[gerry]

Thanks for the correction gfiore (another senior moment). I was trying to remember back to that decade and Kimball translated into Everett. To revise my posting - then it was a Kimball/Bosendorfer model that was produced. It's entirely possible that Kimball sent apprentices over to work along side the craftsmen at Bosendorfer in order to bring improvements back.

[arensky]

The story as I heard it was that Bosendorfer was in big trouble not only because of low output but that all the old craftsman were dying out.

I recently heard rumors of Bosendorfer's imminent demise from a proud owner and they were confirmed by an executive from another company. Seems their owner (don't remember which conglomerate) is unhappy with the low profits. Very few people can afford them and their production is relatively small owing to their high standards. Sadly, this seems to be the fate of most fine craftsmanship in our time.

Regarding the original question, I don't know. Bosies have never really set my heart on fire, although they are extraordinary pianos.

[gfiore]

Old News Arensky. Bawag Bank was the owner of Bosendorfer, and they did indeed sell them a few months back. Bosendorfer now has a new owner, and they are doing just fine. They are a niche manufacturer, and have plenty of customers who can afford to purchase one. The same goes for Fazioli whose production is even smaller than Bosendorfer.

[ultraviolet]

If Bosendorfers are so good, how come not a single concert pianist plays them?  Same with Fazioli.  You could get the same effect by just buying a yamaha and taping a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to the lid.

[gerry]

If Bosendorfers are so good, how come not a single concert pianist plays them? Same with Fazioli. You could get the same effect by just buying a yamaha and taping a hundred and fifty thousand dollars to the lid.

My God, have you ever spent serious time playing a Bosendorder? I can understand a serious inquiry as to why you don't encounter as many in performance venues as Steinways but to make a statement like "...taping a $150,000 price on a Yamaha and getting the same result C'mon, you can't be serious? Are you forgetting the stranglehold Steinway's clever marketing has put on concert piano supply for today's performing artists. There are probably many artists who would love to have a superb Bosie in their performing venue. Unfortunately unlike the Horowitz's of the past, many of today's performing artists lack the kind of power and prestige to make such demands (not to mention economic constraints). It's no secret that if you opt for the ubiquitous Steinway, you have all sorts of assurances of support (tuners, technicians, etc.) but if you demand anything else, you're sort of on your own. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Steinway--I've heard many superb ones in performance venues. With that kind of support, it makes sense to settle for the Steinway. But in reality, if I were in the market for a piano today I think I could expect to play 100 new Steinways and hope to find 50 suitable instruments and maybe 30 I could live with, but out of 100 Bosendorfers, I'd probabaly find 90+ that would be not only suitable but eminently preferable. I just dig those big shiney black angry German villagers.

[pianowolfi]

They are Austrian I think. hmmm the endless debate if Bosie or Steinway...don't know what I should think about it. My dream is a Steinway but actually I agree with Gerry that there are remarkable differences in quality. I am saving for a new grand (but that will last a while :p) I am also thinking about Schimmel and Yamaha (C7 or C3) My piano technician friend prefers Schimmel. Last year I played on a 1964 Steinway which I liked very much but I couldn't afford it yet

[ultraviolet]

My God, have you ever spent serious time playing a Bosendorder? I can understand a serious inquiry as to why you don't encounter as many in performance venues as Steinways but to make a statement like "...taping a $150,000 price on a Yamaha and getting the same result C'mon, you can't be serious? Are you forgetting the stranglehold Steinway's clever marketing has put on concert piano supply for today's performing artists. There are probably many artists who would love to have a superb Bosie in their performing venue. Unfortunately unlike the Horowitz's of the past, many of today's performing artists lack the kind of power and prestige to make such demands (not to mention economic constraints). It's no secret that if you opt for the ubiquitous Steinway, you have all sorts of assurances of support (tuners, technicians, etc.) but if you demand anything else, you're sort of on your own. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Steinway--I've heard many superb ones in performance venues. With that kind of support, it makes sense to settle for the Steinway. But in reality, if I were in the market for a piano today I think I could expect to play 100 new Steinways and hope to find 50 suitable instruments and maybe 30 I could live with, but out of 100 Bosendorfers, I'd probabaly find 90+ that would be not only suitable but eminently preferable. I just dig those big shiney black angry German villagers.

Actually, I meant taping 150,000 cash to the lid, as if to say, "look how much money I've got."  Any European will tell you Bosendorfers cost less than Steinways there, and are a clear second choice to a Steinway.  The whole goal of Bosendorfers is consistency and uniform quality, which makes it like a yamaha.  Bosendorfers have no duplex scaling and so their sound is not rich, it's thin and weird.  It makes Mozart sound alright but Rachmaninov sounds like it came from Mars on a Bosie.  Besides, what's with having more than one piece of wood for the frame?  Bosies just don't have any power because of that.  The only reason anyone buys a Bosie in America is because here they cost more and people associate cost with quality, and they want to be different,  and to claim they have something better than a Steinway, which doesn't exist. 

Sure most Steinways suck, but most pianists also suck.  Steinway makes just enough good pianos for the good pianists, and the people who get the bad pianos deserve it. It's like poetic justice.

[gerry]

I remain unconvinced by your rather embittered sounding argument.

[ultraviolet]

Well, my last comment was indeed uncalled for.  No one deserves a bad piano.  I am embittered.

[pianowolfi]

 

Sure most Steinways suck, but most pianists also suck.  Steinway makes just enough good pianos for the good pianists, and the people who get the bad pianos deserve it. It's like poetic justice.

Lol that statement sorta depressing but sorta funny too. Don't know if I should look like or like 

what has embittered you?

[ultraviolet]

Lol that statement sorta depressing but sorta funny too. Don't know if I should look like or like 

what has embittered you?

I suppose that by the same reasoning, you could say Bosendorfers treat everyone the same, giving everyone a piano that is neither great nor terrible, and  so they level the playing field.  Everyone is equal.  It's "the communist piano."  Also because only governments can afford to pay for them.

What has embittered me?  I suppose years of playing on a piano that sounds like a tin can has embittered me.

[andyd]

Uv,

I'd just like to say a cheery welcome with a virtual shake of the hand, and ask whether you have read the wonderful Piano Book authored by Larry Fine.  It's well worth the money and you'll find lots of very useful information therein to help you choose the piano of your dreams which you are so obviously in need of purchasing asap


Regards

Andy

[pianowolfi]

Uv,

I'd just like to say a cheery welcome with a virtual shake of the hand, and ask whether you have read the wonderful Piano Book authored by Larry Fine.  It's well worth the money and you'll find lots of very useful information therein to help you choose the piano of your dreams which you are so obviously in need of purchasing asap;D


Regards

Andy

Thank you very much for that hint I will check it out.

[ultraviolet]

Uv,

I'd just like to say a cheery welcome with a virtual shake of the hand, and ask whether you have read the wonderful Piano Book authored by Larry Fine.  It's well worth the money and you'll find lots of very useful information therein to help you choose the piano of your dreams which you are so obviously in need of purchasing asap;D


Regards

Andy

You're right.  I do need to purchase a good piano.

[gfiore]

When's the last time you played a Bosie? The concert grand models 280 and 290 do indeed employ front duplex scaling. They are very powerful instruments, and well worth the price. Their construction is very unique, and along with other manufacturing processes give them thier signature sound. They take a full 13 months to complete just one piano. And manufacture just under 400 instruments per year. Hence their price. A lot of costly man hours go into the final factory prep of these pianos. Something NY Steinway just can't afford to do.
 Could Jorg Demus, Leonard Berstein, Andras Schiff, Oscar Peterson, Paul Badora-Skoda, Andre Previn, Tori Amos, Garrick Ohlsson, Mitsuko Uchida, Rudolf Buchbinder, Stevie Wonder, Idil Biret, and so many others both alive and dead be complete idiots for their desire to perform on one of the finest pianos made.

[thalberg]

Fiore, every time I hear you talk about Bosendorfers I start to want one......

[gfiore]

Lol Thalberg. I want a 280 model, but I guess I'll have to suffer for a while with my 214.

[gerry]

Also Imelda Marcos had one - took her entire year's shoe budget

[rich_galassini]

Wow,

The misinformation about boesendorfer pianos here is pretty staggering.

I have had pianists choose a Bosie 225 over a S&S D because of its balance AND power. This is my personal favorite Bosie model, but many prefer the 280. (I have sold them to churches, schools, and private clientele).

gfiore has been "right on" in all of his comments on the Bosendorfer company. Although BAWAG (a Viennese bank) has recently sold them, they are also divesting of all other non-bank holdings - 10 other companies. It is true that hand built pianos do not offer the same profit potential as other lines of work, but that is not why one gets into the field. If all you want is $$$, there are easier ways to get it. This is not exclusive to Bosendorfer.

I also recommend reading "The Piano Book" for much more balanced information. The publication has consistently ranked Bosendorfer at the "top of the heap" among the best pianos in the world, well above the American Steinway.

I hope that was helpful,

[ultraviolet]

When's the last time you played a Bosie? The concert grand models 280 and 290 do indeed employ front duplex scaling. They are very powerful instruments, and well worth the price. Their construction is very unique, and along with other manufacturing processes give them thier signature sound. They take a full 13 months to complete just one piano. And manufacture just under 400 instruments per year. Hence their price. A lot of costly man hours go into the final factory prep of these pianos. Something NY Steinway just can't afford to do.
 Could Jorg Demus, Leonard Berstein, Andras Schiff, Oscar Peterson, Paul Badora-Skoda, Andre Previn, Tori Amos, Garrick Ohlsson, Mitsuko Uchida, Rudolf Buchbinder, Stevie Wonder, Idil Biret, and so many others both alive and dead be complete idiots for their desire to perform on one of the finest pianos made.

Hmmm.....well I know there's one horrible piano that starts with a "B."  Maybe it was Bechstein.  Besides, Steinways are the best because they have what no other piano has--the tunable fourth string called an "aliquant."  It adds so much to the richness.  That's why performers all say you can get so much color out of a Steinway.  With all Steinways patents (well over 100) all the good ideas are pretty much taken unless the company wants to pay royalties to Steinway.  Essex and Boston are good pianos because they use Steinway patents.  I plan to buy an Essex.

I did take a look at some Bosendorfers online, and personally, I would never buy a Bosendorfer because they have individually wrapped strings.  They would never hold their tune, and if one breaks it's way harder to repair.  Practical things matter just as much as sound IMO.

[thalberg]

Hmmm.....well I know there's one horrible piano that starts with a "B."  Maybe it was Bechstein.  Besides, Steinways are the best because they have what no other piano has--the tunable fourth string called an "aliquant."  It adds so much to the richness.  That's why performers all say you can get so much color out of a Steinway.  With all Steinways patents (well over 100) all the good ideas are pretty much taken unless the company wants to pay royalties to Steinway.  Essex and Boston are good pianos because they use Steinway patents.  I plan to buy an Essex.

I did take a look at some Bosendorfers online, and personally, I would never buy a Bosendorfer because they have individually wrapped strings.  They would never hold their tune, and if one breaks it's way harder to repair.  Practical things matter just as much as sound IMO.

Actually, UV,  the whole point of the individual strings is that it hold its tuning better, and that if one breaks it's EASIER to repair.  That's why they do it that way!  So if you want a practical piano, perhaps you should reconsider the Bosie. 

Meanwhile, I hope your Essex comes with a lot of "aliquants."   

[iumonito]

Hmmm.....well I know there's one horrible piano that starts with a "B."  Maybe it was Bechstein.  Besides, Steinways are the best because they have what no other piano has--the tunable fourth string called an "aliquant."  It adds so much to the richness.  That's why performers all say you can get so much color out of a Steinway.  With all Steinways patents (well over 100) all the good ideas are pretty much taken unless the company wants to pay royalties to Steinway.  Essex and Boston are good pianos because they use Steinway patents.  I plan to buy an Essex.

I did take a look at some Bosendorfers online, and personally, I would never buy a Bosendorfer because they have individually wrapped strings.  They would never hold their tune, and if one breaks it's way harder to repair.  Practical things matter just as much as sound IMO.

 

UV, before you buy that Essex, give the matter some thought and gain some piano culture, so that a sales person does not take advantage of you.

The aliquot strings, for example, are a Bluthner thing.  The patent on those expired a long time ago, so the only reason other pianos don't have it (and Steinways don't) is 'cause the designer thinks they are better off without them.

You may be thinking of duplex scales, which in a reduced space have the same philosophy: string to vibrate sympathetically.  Lots of pianos have it.  In Faziolis it is indeed tunable.  Plenty of good pianos don't have it.

Bechsteins are exceptionally good pianos.  I am deeply fond of the old ones.  The newer ones feel like Steinway clones to me, so I like them less, even though they are indeed very good.

There are a million reasons why not to like a Bose, but lack of craftmanship is not one of them.  You may disagree with the design choices (I do) but no one seriously questions how impeccably well made those pianos are.

And now, just in jest, the only horrible pianos that start with B I know are Steinway model Bs.  The other ones are all quite good.  Baldwin, Bosendorfer, Bluthner, Bechstein ...   

[gerry]

You say aliquant, I say aliquot, you say Steinway, I say Bluthner - let's call the whole thing off...

[andyd]

Troll alert.

I was suspicious yesterday on reading Uv's amusing 'Lizst sux' 

[gerry]

I did take a look at some Bosendorfers online, and personally, I would never buy a Bosendorfer because they have individually wrapped strings.  They would never hold their tune, and if one breaks it's way harder to repair.  Practical things matter just as much as sound IMO.

I don't know where you're getting your "facts". Regarding the individual stringing - although I've only broken 2 strings since 1969 (and I play my 225 hard), it's a blessing in that at least I only lose one and not the neighboring string also. I live where it sometimes takes a month or more to schedule my tuner to come through and replace it. As for holding tuning - I get my piano tuned every 6 months even though it seldom sounds like it needs it. You sound so defensive about this piano thing, almost as if you feel you need to make up these arguments just to counter the experts - yes the experts (iumonito, thalberg, uv) have won, I think it's time to give it up.

[gerry]

Type on that last post, I meant to read yes, uv, the experts (iumonito, thalberg, gfiore) have won. I didn't mean it to appear that I was including uv in my list of experts.

[gfiore]

 Thank god gerry. Those that don't know should'nt spew misinformation. Get the hint uv.

[ultraviolet]

Troll alert.

I was suspicious yesterday on reading Uv's amusing 'Lizst sux' 

LOL.  If your definition of a troll is someone who thinks Liszt's music has all the substance of marshmallow fluff, then I suppose half the music community would consist of trolls.  Don't get me wrong, you can impress a good many people playing Liszt, it's just they all happen to live in trailer parks.

And gfiore and gerry, okay I looked it up, and the "aliquots" are a Bluthner thing and Steinway does not have them.  You're  right.  But "aliquant" is actually a mathematical term, so I was wrong for a  very sophisticated reason.  Since there are so many experts here, tell me, can I have aliquots installed on my Essex?

[gfiore]

No. It would cost more than the Essex is worth.

[gerry]

And gfiore and gerry, okay I looked it up, and the "aliquots" are a Bluthner thing and Steinway does not have them.  You're  right.  But "aliquant" is actually a mathematical term, so I was wrong for a  very sophisticated reason.  Since there are so many experts here, tell me, can I have aliquots installed on my Essex?

In all fairness you should include Thalberg who was too polite to correct you in his earlier post. He was the one who taught me this term (on the Bluthner thread). See, we all learn from each other. I now know that an aliquant is an integer that is not an exact divisor of a given quantity--although I don't foresee too many opporunities for its inclusion in my syntax in the near future.

[jinfiesto]

Gah... Personally, I think Steinway's are the best, I think they have more color and power than most pianos, and yes, there are some awful steinways, but I think they are capable of making the best pianos, and do... It's just a matter of looking for the right one. I personally think Bosies lack power. They feel kind of wimpy to me, although they have a nice rich tone. I love faziolis, but those are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay expensive, so that's a long shot. Plus, it's much easier to find a really nice rebuilt or used steinway than it is to find a good used bosendorfer.